View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4721
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Maybe but that does not for a second mean that Bargnani in a starting role will lead to anything significant no matter who the Raptors can get to share the paint with him.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I have the perfect solution to keeping Bargnani. Lowered expectations! If everyone just is content with a mediocre team with no hope of contending, then keeping Bargnani would be no problem.
    I really dont know why everybody else understands the premise of this thread except you.

    I, tbihis, dont want to keep Bargnani and his stinky defense. Almost everybody in this site dont want to keep Bargnani, well maybe Multi. Thats been said and agreed upon. What MY thread is asking is, IF THE RAPS DO KEEP BARGNANI, and thats a big IF, what are the possible solutions to make it work?

    You cant keep posting here and offering sarcastic remarks just because you dont think its a good idea to keep Bargnani. We get it, to you, keeping Bargnani will set this team back, but thats not the premise of my thread.

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    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    i don't see a solution that could be deemed a positive solution to both our franchise and value of bargs as an asset. limiting his minutes and decreasing his role is only going to minimize the return we'll receive for him while it'll do absolutely no good for his confidence and development as a player.

    to keep the integrity of your thread alive, the only solution would to have him in the same role until he was traded.
    See Tim, this is the kind of response you should be heading towards.

  4. #4724
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I hate Bargnani's game. I don't recall ever liking his game since he came into the league. As far as solution is concerned, should BC retain his current position, there will be a concerted effort to really find a true center for Bargs (like an Okaforesque gargantuan effort). The plethora of true 5s in this league is as rare as diamonds in the rough. Sadly, if BC comes back, Andrea is not going anywhere (much to the chagrin of Tim W. and myself). As for the future of Ed Davis once AB slides into the 4-spot, who knows. I don't think BC is looking that far down the line (he's just worried about his contract status at the moment).
    I actually succumbed to the pressure and decide against my best interest to listen to BC's presscon.

    I think he's at the end of his rope when it comes to Bargnani. I think he will still give him next season to show improvement, but i dont doubt that if there is a good deal on the table that he wont be hesitant to deal him. Not just because he said nobody is untradeable but the only reference he made to bargnani was when somebody asked him. Unlike when it comes to Demar, Bayless, Amir, Ed and JJ, those names were always included in every positive line that he said. I mean not mentioning your so-called franchise player, for me, is a sign that he has already fallen out of favor.

    I was also surprised he didnt even mention Sonny. And did not delve much into Jose. He mentioned Barbosa's injuries, but he never gave an update on Jose, who, i believe is still suffering from that hamstring. IMO, Jose will be traded this offseason. I dont think he's a part of the core anymore, as BC never even mentioned him in the same breath as those 6 i mentioned earlier.

    im really, really, really interested to know what those 2 transactions were that couldve gotten them into playoff contention. I dont know if anybody on this thread mentioned Gerald Wallace, but i have a feeling that was one. I think the other one was probably some involvement with the Melo deal. Maybe something to do with Gallo or Felton...
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 09:41 AM.

  5. #4725
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I really dont know why everybody else understands the premise of this thread except you.

    I, tbihis, dont want to keep Bargnani and his stinky defense. Almost everybody in this site dont want to keep Bargnani, well maybe Multi. Thats been said and agreed upon. What MY thread is asking is, IF THE RAPS DO KEEP BARGNANI, and thats a big IF, what are the possible solutions to make it work?

    You cant keep posting here and offering sarcastic remarks just because you dont think its a good idea to keep Bargnani. We get it, to you, keeping Bargnani will set this team back, but thats not the premise of my thread.
    I don't know why you're the only one who doesn't get it. First of all, i HAVE answered your question. You just didn't like it. Just because I'm not answering the question the way you want doesn't mean I'm not answering it.

    Let me spell it out for you. Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding as a big man are CRIPPLING to a team. Keep him and you are doomed to a future of mediocrity at best unless you stick him deep on the bench where his contract will hurt the franchise possibly even more than his flaws do. Keeping him is a no win situation. Period. You bring him off the bench and he's still hurting the team most of the time he's on the floor, but you've probably killed his trade value because he's never performed well off the bench. Start him at any position and you're never going to be a good defensive team.

    There are no positive solutions to keeping Bargnani. Hows that?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know why you're the only one who doesn't get it. First of all, i HAVE answered your question. You just didn't like it. Just because I'm not answering the question the way you want doesn't mean I'm not answering it.

    Let me spell it out for you. Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding as a big man are CRIPPLING to a team. Keep him and you are doomed to a future of mediocrity at best unless you stick him deep on the bench where his contract will hurt the franchise possibly even more than his flaws do. Keeping him is a no win situation. Period. You bring him off the bench and he's still hurting the team most of the time he's on the floor, but you've probably killed his trade value because he's never performed well off the bench. Start him at any position and you're never going to be a good defensive team.

    There are no positive solutions to keeping Bargnani. Hows that?
    Frankly, you havent.

    Im not asking if we should or should not keep Bargnani. Im not asking if keeping Bargnani will make this team better or not. Im not asking what the positives or negatives are in keeping Bargnani. These are the questions you keep answering.

    What im asking is AFTER THE FACT. Given the Raptors already KEPT Bargnani, what can they do to make it work? You keep saying its not gonna work, its not gonna work, but what im asking is what if the situation is already there, the Raps have decided to keep him so what do we do next?

    Of course i dont like your response, because youre trying to segway this thread into a different direction.

    You actually got it the first time, but youre too busy thinking of smart alec comments rather than providing a straight answer. You said this the first time - "Teach him how to be a good assistant coach. Or a water boy" from which i know you understood the question, but then you just started posting recurring comments that i personally think was a move to derail the thread.

    Read the question again, answer intellectually, and lets go from there.

  7. #4727
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know why you're the only one who doesn't get it. First of all, i HAVE answered your question. You just didn't like it. Just because I'm not answering the question the way you want doesn't mean I'm not answering it.

    Let me spell it out for you. Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding as a big man are CRIPPLING to a team. Keep him and you are doomed to a future of mediocrity at best unless you stick him deep on the bench where his contract will hurt the franchise possibly even more than his flaws do. Keeping him is a no win situation. Period. You bring him off the bench and he's still hurting the team most of the time he's on the floor, but you've probably killed his trade value because he's never performed well off the bench. Start him at any position and you're never going to be a good defensive team.

    There are no positive solutions to keeping Bargnani. Hows that?
    I wont try and put words in your mouth, but from what im getting from this post is, IF the Raps do decide to keep Bargnani, then your solution for it to work, is to sit him and not play him at all? Is this a fair assumption?

    Since you keeping pointing out how bad he's hurting the team, all his flaws, no positive solution, etc etc. Should i answer my question for you, and safely say, if the Raps do keep Bargnani, the solution, IYO is to make him sit and not play?

  8. #4728
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    If Bargs didn't sulk about it, which everyone here agrees he probably would, he would be best suited coming off the bench as he can play all three front court positions and bad defense is masked a little when coming off the bench. Another issue would be how the fanbase views a guy making 10mil/year coming off the bench....my guess...not good
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  9. #4729
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    I will play your game, tbihis... lol

    My thoughts are based on 3 assumptions:
    1. Barbosa uses his option to come back next season
    2. none of the other 5 free agents are re-signed by the Raptors (Ajinca, Evans, Dorsey, Weems, Wright)
    3. the only offseason move, via draft/trade/free agency is to bring in a new young defensive-minded C, per BC's comments (no way to guess what other moves will be made, so have to assume just the one)

    - start all the young players together, let them learn and grow together, playing consistent starters minutes (new C, Davis, J.Johnson, DeRozan, Bayless) --> this is a true rebuild, with only the long-term in mind

    - the 2nd unit becomes the veteran unit (Bargnani, A.Johnson, Kleiza, Barbosa, Calderon) --> Amir/Calderon have good chemistry; significantly higher % of Bargnani's minutes come against the opposition's 2nd unit, enhancing his offensive advantages and minimizing his defensive shortcomings (and the demotion hopefully motivates him to improve his rebounding/defense)

    * I have read comments on this and other threads saying that moving Bargnani to the bench would hurt his trade value, but I just don't buy it. Every team in the league knows Bargnani by now, both his strengths and weaknesses. As long as he continues scoring and playing the same lousy defense, I really don't think his trade value would be negatively impacted by coming off the bench. It could actualy help increase his value, if he does well in the 6th man role, by showing teams another dimension of versatility that perhaps they never considered him for.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 12:35 PM.

  10. #4730
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know why you're the only one who doesn't get it. First of all, i HAVE answered your question. You just didn't like it. Just because I'm not answering the question the way you want doesn't mean I'm not answering it.

    Let me spell it out for you. Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding as a big man are CRIPPLING to a team. Keep him and you are doomed to a future of mediocrity at best unless you stick him deep on the bench where his contract will hurt the franchise possibly even more than his flaws do. Keeping him is a no win situation. Period. You bring him off the bench and he's still hurting the team most of the time he's on the floor, but you've probably killed his trade value because he's never performed well off the bench. Start him at any position and you're never going to be a good defensive team.

    There are no positive solutions to keeping Bargnani. Hows that?

    Let me see if i can beat this dead horse and explain to you once again. Here's an example:

    You go to a store, see a TV on sale, you buy it and have it delivered to your house.
    The next day, your wife tells you dont buy any more stuff coz youre going bankrupt.
    One week later youre sitting in your car thinking....is this the day the TV arrives???

    2 scenarios - 1. you wait outside your house and intercept the TV
    2. if the tv is there already, how are you going to provide a solution so that your wife wont kill you.

    Think of scenario #2. The TV is already there, you may want to get rid of it to please your wife, but if its there already then you cant really do anything about it. Just think of a solution to make the TV and your wife co-exist.

    If you still dont get it, let me know, and ill just bang my head on the wall.

  11. #4731
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Pureraptors wrote: View Post
    If Bargs didn't sulk about it, which everyone here agrees he probably would, he would be best suited coming off the bench as he can play all three front court positions and bad defense is masked a little when coming off the bench. Another issue would be how the fanbase views a guy making 10mil/year coming off the bench....my guess...not good
    you understand!!!!! this is what im asking for in my thread.

  12. #4732
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    Quote Pureraptors wrote: View Post
    If Bargs didn't sulk about it, which everyone here agrees he probably would, he would be best suited coming off the bench as he can play all three front court positions and bad defense is masked a little when coming off the bench. Another issue would be how the fanbase views a guy making 10mil/year coming off the bench....my guess...not good
    On a good team he would be playing the role of a Rashard Lewis during his time in Orlando or Vladamir Radmonovic in his early Sonics days. I think his future team would have no problem with his salary in such a role as long as he's sinking buckets and making a strong impact that way. In Raptorland however he's not going to get a warm reception via this route.

  13. #4733
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    On a good team he would be playing the role of a Rashard Lewis during his time in Orlando or Vladamir Radmonovic in his early Sonics days. I think his future team would have no problem with his salary in such a role as long as he's sinking buckets and making a strong impact that way. In Raptorland however he's not going to get a warm reception via this route.
    i agree with this. just gotta take the dime to the dollar and move on

  14. #4734
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Frankly, you havent.

    Im not asking if we should or should not keep Bargnani. Im not asking if keeping Bargnani will make this team better or not. Im not asking what the positives or negatives are in keeping Bargnani. These are the questions you keep answering.

    What im asking is AFTER THE FACT. Given the Raptors already KEPT Bargnani, what can they do to make it work? You keep saying its not gonna work, its not gonna work, but what im asking is what if the situation is already there, the Raps have decided to keep him so what do we do next?

    Of course i dont like your response, because youre trying to segway this thread into a different direction.

    You actually got it the first time, but youre too busy thinking of smart alec comments rather than providing a straight answer. You said this the first time - "Teach him how to be a good assistant coach. Or a water boy" from which i know you understood the question, but then you just started posting recurring comments that i personally think was a move to derail the thread.

    Read the question again, answer intellectually, and lets go from there.
    If I answered it the first time, then are you really getting upset for trying to keep things light-hearted after that? Really? We're not allowed to make jokes on threads that you start?

    And if I haven't made it clear that I don't think there is a way to keep Bargnani, then I don't know what else to say. If I'm the coach of the Raptors, I go to Colangelo and tell him if he doesn't trade Bargnani then he's playing 15 mpg, at most, next year and it'll kill his trade value and probably his confidence. If Colangelo tells me I don't have a choice I quit because I'm not being given the chance to succeed.

    If I thought there was a way to succeed with Bargnani, I wouldn't have been so adamant about trading him all this time.

    There is no solution to keeping Bargnani, in my opinion. Not one that doesn't hurt the franchise, either by killing his trade value or handicapping the team on the court.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    let me see if i can beat this dead horse and explain to you once again. Here's an example:

    You go to a store, see a tv on sale, you buy it and have it delivered to your house.
    The next day, your wife tells you dont buy any more stuff coz youre going bankrupt.
    One week later youre sitting in your car thinking....is this the day the tv arrives???

    2 scenarios - 1. You wait outside your house and intercept the tv
    2. If the tv is there already, how are you going to provide a solution so that your wife wont kill you.

    Think of scenario #2. The tv is already there, you may want to get rid of it to please your wife, but if its there already then you cant really do anything about it. Just think of a solution to make the tv and your wife co-exist.

    If you still dont get it, let me know, and ill just bang my head on the wall.
    i'd sell the f#$@%$#ing tv!!!!!!!!!!
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  16. #4736
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    i'd sell the f#$@%$#ing tv!!!!!!!!!!
    hahaha thank god you finally understood!!!!!

    just read your other post. i was wrong.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 01:25 PM.

  17. #4737
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If I answered it the first time, then are you really getting upset for trying to keep things light-hearted after that? Really? We're not allowed to make jokes on threads that you start?

    And if I haven't made it clear that I don't think there is a way to keep Bargnani, then I don't know what else to say. If I'm the coach of the Raptors, I go to Colangelo and tell him if he doesn't trade Bargnani then he's playing 15 mpg, at most, next year and it'll kill his trade value and probably his confidence. If Colangelo tells me I don't have a choice I quit because I'm not being given the chance to succeed.

    If I thought there was a way to succeed with Bargnani, I wouldn't have been so adamant about trading him all this time.

    There is no solution to keeping Bargnani, in my opinion. Not one that doesn't hurt the franchise, either by killing his trade value or handicapping the team on the court.
    hahaha dont turn this around and make this about me. jokes are ok, but you constantly post comments on Bargnani cant do this, cant do that, bad at this, bad at that, which does not belong in this thread. This is NOT a "what kind of player is Bargnani" thread, this is a "how can you make it work with Bargnani if the Raps keep him" thread.

    OK, given there is no way to keep Bargnani. Youre saying youre the coach, you tell BC trade Bargnani. What if BC comes to you and says, "Well, ive decided we are keeping Bargnani". You say you'll quit, right? So if the new coach comes to you and says, i know you werent in favor of keeping Bargnani, but they DID so now i have no choice but to deal with it. What advise would you give him on what to do with Bargnani?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 01:40 PM.

  18. #4738
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    If I thought there was a way to succeed with Bargnani, I wouldn't have been so adamant about trading him all this time.
    There is no solution to keeping Bargnani, in my opinion. Not one that doesn't hurt the franchise, either by killing his trade value or handicapping the team on the court.



    It ok you don’t have to worry about either of those outcomes. A player value is built over a period of time and judged in real game situations as well as video recordings dating back to a player’s rookie year. Video can be watched on a year to year basis to track evolutions and improvement added or subtracted from rookie year to present. Andrea has improved each year he been in the NBA but particularly this year where he was forced to take on added responsibility to try and help overcome Chris Bosh’s absence. So IF Toronto was to trade him his current value is at an all time high.

    Therefore I believe your argument is more directed at the person as appose to the player. Calling him a handicap just strengthens my argument. You tend to ignore all the positive contribution he brings to the team why is this? When others are willing to give him a chance to prove himself next to a legitimate center you quickly brush those arguments aside how come do you have any evidence to suggest that the raptors defense can’t improve with Bargnani playing next to a legitimate center? What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?

    i look forward to your answer
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 05:32 PM.

  19. #4739
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    Solution to making it work if Bargnani stays?

    1. Build time machine.
    2. Bring prime Shaquille O'Neal from 2000-2003 to the present.
    3. ???
    4. Championships

    edit To respond to the post above: Ed Davis is already better than Bargnani. It took him a whopping 10 games to have a better career game than Bargnani did in 5 years.

  20. #4740
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    edit To respond to the post above: Ed Davis is already better than Bargnani. It took him a whopping 10 games to have a better career game than Bargnani did in 5 years.
    why look at this year that would be unfair to Ed.. jsut compare there rookie years? Remeber Bargnani's strength isan't rebounding hes a scoring big and proved a to be a better scorer than Ed in his ROOKIE year.

    edit just a little side dish for those who doubt he can come off the bench. His rookie year 25 mpg... btw that just so happened to be best year in franchise history..
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 06:12 PM.

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