Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[footarez]

What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?

The question was for Tim W. I believe but I'll give my opinion if I may.
Amir Johsnon has worked A LOT on his game.He improved his rebounding,his defense,his low post moves-he added semi-hook shot which is quite effective,he developed better jumper making it consistently.So he listens to his coaches,he definitely puts a lot of time working on his game and he is devoted to the team..like playing hurt even the record of the team already sucked.If that is not a way to prove I don't know what is.I'm not saying he is phenomenal player or the solution for the team or anything like that.I'm just saying the guy DEFINITELY proved himself he deserves minutes,respect and trust.Right now I believe he is better FOR THE TEAM than Bargnani is in every aspect.So he already developed to be a better player than Bargnani is and not for 5 years-he did it for 2.What has Bargnani done to deserve minutes besides improving his offense?I'm not saying that is nothing that is also a lot of work but what about the other things?Let's be realistic it is notlike the coaches haven't told him "Wokr on your defence,REBOUND the ball,fight for postion,look man and ball,help on defense,make the right decisions,rotate when needed" those are things even the weakest coach would tell him so I believe Triano and definitely Mitchell have told him.And did he worked on any of them?To be honest I don't know but I DON'T see improvement in those things with him.
I think it is kind of soon to tell about Ed.I think people consider him better than he is right now based on what player he might become.But when Bargnani entered the league people tought the same about him.Not anymore.At least most people don't.Personally I'd take Barg. minutes and give them to Ed because at least I see him trying.fighting out there on both ends of the floor.With less weight and height and experience he is really TRYING.I haven't seen that in Bargnani.Ok,that was a lie I have seen him but very rare and only to score the ball.
I decided to write and quote about that part of your post because I agree with most of the rest of your post.

[Apollo]

I'd actually take the Shaq-Fu version of the mid 90's but I agree with the point. Guy would work best next to a dominate post presence. Present day options would include D12, Noah, maybe Yao if he was ever healthy, ditto for Oden. Lower tier guys like Perkins, Chandler, Horford, Bogut, Camby and Jordan might work... I think in all those scenarios you want a tough SF in the mix as well.

[nubreed000]

why look at this year that would be unfair to Ed.. jsut compare there rookie years? Remeber Bargnani's strength isan't rebounding hes a scoring big and proved a to be a better scorer than Ed in his ROOKIE year.

edit just a little side dish for those who doubt he can come off the bench. His rookie year 25 mpg... btw that just so happened to be best year in franchise history..

See that's the thing: Bargnani is ONLY better at scoring. And he's only better at it on the perimeter. Ed is better in everything else, and don't think for 1 second that Ed won't come back next year, bigger, better, and with a more focused offensive game. Pair him up with a guy like Kendrick Perkins and we'll have one badass front court. Trade Bargnani, or stick him on the bench and bring him in with Reggie and thats that.

[Tim W.]

hahaha dont turn this around and make this about me. jokes are ok, but you constantly post comments on Bargnani cant do this, cant do that, bad at this, bad at that, which does not belong in this thread. This is NOT a "what kind of player is Bargnani" thread, this is a "how can you make it work with Bargnani if the Raps keep him" thread.

OK, given there is no way to keep Bargnani. Youre saying youre the coach, you tell BC trade Bargnani. What if BC comes to you and says, "Well, ive decided we are keeping Bargnani". You say you'll quit, right? So if the new coach comes to you and says, i know you werent in favor of keeping Bargnani, but they DID so now i have no choice but to deal with it. What advise would you give him on what to do with Bargnani?

"Bargnani, bench. Bench, Bargnani. I thought you two should meet because you're going to be seeing a lot of each other this year."

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

"Bargnani, bench. Bench, Bargnani. I thought you two should meet because you're going to be seeing a lot of each other this year."

finally!!! there you go!!! now how hard was that do???

thats what ive been asking from you all along. ill take it eventhough its a bit of a quirk.

[DunkinDerozan]

The question was for Tim W. I believe but I'll give my opinion if I may.
Amir Johsnon has worked A LOT on his game.He improved his rebounding,his defense,his low post moves-he added semi-hook shot which is quite effective,he developed better jumper making it consistently.So he listens to his coaches,he definitely puts a lot of time working on his game and he is devoted to the team.. like playing hurt even the record of the team already sucked.If that is not a way to prove I don't know what is.I'm not saying he is phenomenal player or the solution for the team or anything like that

Unfortunately in basketball defense is almost impossible to measure on an individual basis. It is impossible to claim a person has improved their defense if your TEAM is last in defense in the NBA.


I'm just saying the guy DEFINITELY proved himself he deserves minutes,respect and trust.Right now I believe he is better FOR THE TEAM than Bargnani is in every aspect.

Do you have any evidence to back this up. Again who would you rather have playing along side a tyson chandler?

So he already developed to be a better player than Bargnani is and not for 5 years-he did it for 2.What has Bargnani done to deserve minutes besides improving his offense?

Amir has been in the league longer than Andrea, it just seems hes only been in the league two years because it took an extremely long time for Amir to adjust to the NBA game. Offense is a HUGE aspect of basketball. Ask ovechkin what he does besides score 50 goals a year?

I'm not saying that is nothing that is also a lot of work but what about the other things?Let's be realistic it is notlike the coaches haven't told him "Wokr on your defence,REBOUND the ball,fight for postion,look man and ball,help on defense,make the right decisions,rotate when needed" those are things even the weakest coach would tell him so I believe Triano and definitely Mitchell have told him.And did he worked on any of them?

We all agree his defense has been sub par, so has the whole teams. As a result it’s impossible determine if one player is responsible for the team problem. Take the last game of the year as an example. Miami was resting all there stars. Yet our supposed defensive unit got embarrased by the likes of juwan howard and jamal maglore.

To be honest I don't know but I DON'T see improvement in those things with him.
I think it is kind of soon to tell about Ed.I think people consider him better than he is right now based on what player he might become.But when Bargnani entered the league people tought the same about him.Not anymore.

I think people’s expectations for his game have skyrocketed for no reason in particular. He avereaged 17ppg last year CB4 left via free agency we were in a rebuild what did people really expect?

At least most people don't.Personally I'd take Barg. minutes and give them to Ed because at least I see him trying.fighting out there on both ends of the floor.

Come on man Bargnani earned those minutes to think otherwise would be ignorant. He’s top 15 in NBA scoring that has to be worth SOMETHING.

With less weight and height and experience he is really TRYING.I haven't seen that in Bargnani.Ok,that was a lie I have seen him but very rare and only to score the ball.

No body is denying that Ed is trying really hard. But then don’t try suggesting Bargnani doesn’t bust his tail off. Again I hate coming back to this. Top 15 scorer. This requires consistent effor night in and night out.

[Tim W.]

It ok you don’t have to worry about either of those outcomes. A player value is built over a period of time and judged in real game situations as well as video recordings dating back to a player’s rookie year. Video can be watched on a year to year basis to track evolutions and improvement added or subtracted from rookie year to present. Andrea has improved each year he been in the NBA but particularly this year where he was forced to take on added responsibility to try and help overcome Chris Bosh’s absence. So IF Toronto was to trade him his current value is at an all time high.

Therefore I believe your argument is more directed at the person as appose to the player. Calling him a handicap just strengthens my argument. You tend to ignore all the positive contribution he brings to the team why is this? When others are willing to give him a chance to prove himself next to a legitimate center you quickly brush those arguments aside how come do you have any evidence to suggest that the raptors defense can’t improve with Bargnani playing next to a legitimate center? What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?

i look forward to your answer

A player's value goes up and down depending on a whole lot of situations. If you think sticking Bargnani on the bench and having his not perform well isn't going to affect his trade value, then I'd love to tell you about this fantastic opportunity involving Nigerian inheritance.

As for Bargnani, his trade value peaked last summer, when I was most adamant he be traded. Everything I feared would happen did happen with him. His limitations were fully exposed. And no, he hasn't improved each year. Unless you're only talking about offense. By most accounts, he's had a disappointing year, so it's pretty difficult to argue that his trade value has gone up.

As for his positive contributions, I'm pretty sure I, and many others, have said that they are outweighed by his negative contributions. Why do YOU continually ignore this? He gives up more production on defense than he gives you on offense. The team performs better when he's not on the court. Look at just about any advanced stat. They all say that Bargnani hurts the team.

Look at it this way. Let's say Bargnani was a SWAT marksman. Maybe he consistently kills all the bad guys, but if he generally kills all the hostages, the positives pretty much outweigh the negative.

And no, it's not personal. Continuing to say so doesn't make it true. I'm sorry, but unfortunately you can't simply pretend that I simply hate him so you don't have to listen to what I say. I have literally no personal feelings about him. None. I could be best friends with the guy and I'd still want him off the team. In fact, there have been plenty of guys who I've personally liked, but never, ever wanted on my team.

[Tim W.]

The question was for Tim W. I believe but I'll give my opinion if I may.
Amir Johsnon has worked A LOT on his game.He improved his rebounding,his defense,his low post moves-he added semi-hook shot which is quite effective,he developed better jumper making it consistently.So he listens to his coaches,he definitely puts a lot of time working on his game and he is devoted to the team..like playing hurt even the record of the team already sucked.If that is not a way to prove I don't know what is.I'm not saying he is phenomenal player or the solution for the team or anything like that.I'm just saying the guy DEFINITELY proved himself he deserves minutes,respect and trust.Right now I believe he is better FOR THE TEAM than Bargnani is in every aspect.So he already developed to be a better player than Bargnani is and not for 5 years-he did it for 2.What has Bargnani done to deserve minutes besides improving his offense?I'm not saying that is nothing that is also a lot of work but what about the other things?Let's be realistic it is notlike the coaches haven't told him "Wokr on your defence,REBOUND the ball,fight for postion,look man and ball,help on defense,make the right decisions,rotate when needed" those are things even the weakest coach would tell him so I believe Triano and definitely Mitchell have told him.And did he worked on any of them?To be honest I don't know but I DON'T see improvement in those things with him.
I think it is kind of soon to tell about Ed.I think people consider him better than he is right now based on what player he might become.But when Bargnani entered the league people tought the same about him.Not anymore.At least most people don't.Personally I'd take Barg. minutes and give them to Ed because at least I see him trying.fighting out there on both ends of the floor.With less weight and height and experience he is really TRYING.I haven't seen that in Bargnani.Ok,that was a lie I have seen him but very rare and only to score the ball.
I decided to write and quote about that part of your post because I agree with most of the rest of your post.

Can't disagree with that.

[Tim W.]

finally!!! there you go!!! now how hard was that do???

thats what ive been asking from you all along. ill take it eventhough its a bit of a quirk.

I'm all quirk, baby!

[DunkinDerozan]

See that's the thing: Bargnani is ONLY better at scoring. And he's only better at it on the perimeter. Ed is better in everything else, and don't think for 1 second that Ed won't come back next year, bigger, better, and with a more focused offensive game. Pair him up with a guy like Kendrick Perkins and we'll have one badass front court. Trade Bargnani, or stick him on the bench and bring him in with Reggie and thats that.

Take the top 15 scores in the nba. at least half aren't good defenders. Basically what your saying is those teams would be willing to trade them in a heartbeat? Why was newyork willing to part with half their team i mean camelo is only better at scoring. Everyone is an idiot for liking and admiring skilled scorers i guess.

[DunkinDerozan]

A player's value goes up and down depending on a whole lot of situations. If you think sticking Bargnani on the bench and having his not perform well isn't going to affect his trade value, then I'd love to tell you about this fantastic opportunity involving Nigerian inheritance.

As for Bargnani, his trade value peaked last summer, when I was most adamant he be traded. Everything I feared would happen did happen with him. His limitations were fully exposed. And no, he hasn't improved each year. Unless you're only talking about offense. By most accounts, he's had a disappointing year, so it's pretty difficult to argue that his trade value has gone up.

As for his positive contributions, I'm pretty sure I, and many others, have said that they are outweighed by his negative contributions. Why do YOU continually ignore this? He gives up more production on defense than he gives you on offense. The team performs better when he's not on the court. Look at just about any advanced stat. They all say that Bargnani hurts the team.

Look at it this way. Let's say Bargnani was a SWAT marksman. Maybe he consistently kills all the bad guys, but if he generally kills all the hostages, the positives pretty much outweigh the negative.

And no, it's not personal. Continuing to say so doesn't make it true. I'm sorry, but unfortunately you can't simply pretend that I simply hate him so you don't have to listen to what I say. I have literally no personal feelings about him. None. I could be best friends with the guy and I'd still want him off the team. In fact, there have been plenty of guys who I've personally liked, but never, ever wanted on my team.

When others are willing to give him a chance to prove himself next to a legitimate center you quickly brush those arguments aside how come do you have any evidence to suggest that the raptors defense can’t improve with Bargnani playing next to a legitimate center? What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?
look forward to your answers

[Tim W.]

Unfortunately in basketball defense is almost impossible to measure on an individual basis. It is impossible to claim a person has improved their defense if your TEAM is last in defense in the NBA.

Actually, it's not. You can watch the player, plus you can look at his advanced stats. Personally, I don't find it that difficult to see how good a defensive player is by watching him. And if all the advanced stats tell you something, it's pretty hard to deny it. Well, apparently not, but to reasonable people it is.

Do you have any evidence to back this up. Again who would you rather have playing along side a tyson chandler?

Again, advanced stats overwhelmingly favour Amir over Bargnani. Plus, I can see it.

Amir has been in the league longer than Andrea, it just seems hes only been in the league two years because it took an extremely long time for Amir to adjust to the NBA game. Offense is a HUGE aspect of basketball. Ask ovechkin what he does besides score 50 goals a year?

I know nothing about hockey, but in basketball, offense is only half the game. Bargnani certainly has worked on half his game, but there's been literally no improvement in an entire 50% of his game.

And for the record, Amir was drafted onto a loaded Detroit team that was also a contender. I'm going to guess Bargnani would have had the same trouble getting playing time over Rasheed, Ben and Antonio.

And Bargnani has actually played twice as many minutes as Amir, the vast majority of those on lottery teams.

We all agree his defense has been sub par, so has the whole teams. As a result it’s impossible determine if one player is responsible for the team problem. Take the last game of the year as an example. Miami was resting all there stars. Yet our supposed defensive unit got embarrased by the likes of juwan howard and jamal maglore.

No one has ever claimed the team is good defensively without Bargnani, but it's better. On a scale of 1 to 10, with Bargnani the defense is a 1 and without him it's a 3.

Bargnani is the worst defensive player on the Raptors, and he's a front court player. The combination of which overwhelming tells me that he's probably the biggest problem. Plus, I see it watching.

I think people’s expectations for his game have skyrocketed for no reason in particular. He avereaged 17ppg last year CB4 left via free agency we were in a rebuild what did people really expect?

Bargnani fans seemed to really be the only people with unreasonable expectations. Personally, I though he did a little better offensively than I was expecting, but I was expecting to see SOME improvement in other areas. Instead we saw a decline.

Come on man Bargnani earned those minutes to think otherwise would be ignorant. He’s top 15 in NBA scoring that has to be worth SOMETHING.

Great, he's a top 15 scorer. How many point does he give up?

No body is denying that Ed is trying really hard. But then don’t try suggesting Bargnani doesn’t bust his tail off. Again I hate coming back to this. Top 15 scorer. This requires consistent effor night in and night out.

This is really the only mantra in defense of Bargnani. His scoring. He is a natural scorer, but I wouldn't say he works exceedingly hard on the offensive end. IN fact, a lot of time he just seems to float around and wait for the ball to be passed to him. He's not very good at moving without the ball and he's not great at getting himself into scoring position.

And why doesn't he give a consistent effort on defense? I've said it many times, but that's literally half the game. Anyone with a decent basketball IQ knows this.

[WhatWhat]

Take the top 15 scores in the nba. at least half aren't good defenders. Basically what your saying is those teams would be willing to trade them in a heartbeat? Why was newyork willing to part with half their team i mean camelo is only better at scoring. Everyone is an idiot for liking and admiring skilled scorers i guess.

1. Kevin Durant - Good rebounder, disturbing efficient scorer, on pace to be in hall of fame, decent defender.
2. LeBron James - Best player alive.
3. Carmelo Anthony - High usage player that doesn't score that efficiently, lack of commitment to defense, excellent rebounder. Positives slightly outweigh negatives.
4. Dwyane Wade - Extremely efficient scorer, gambles on defense too much, but can be a GREAT one when he wants...otherwise he would not have made any all-defensive teams.
5. Kobe Bryant - Greatest player since MJ, quite arguably even better. Made All-Defensive Teams like Wade. Noticably declined on that end though. He's still not a poor defender at all though.
6. Amare Stoudemire - Poor defender, average rebounder 1/6, 3 if you wanna count KD and Kobe, I guess.
7. Derrick Rose - Was quite poor on D before, is average now. The Point God.
8. Monta Ellis - Completely right.
9. Kevin Martin - Completely right.
10. Dirk Nowitzki - Not a good defender, an average one. Worked very hard to get to that point.
11. Dwight Howard - LOL
12. Blake Griffin - Not a good defender. Likely will only be average.
13. Eric Gordon - (Damn, the Clippers have a nice core) Undersized...I'll give you this.
14. Russell Westbrook - Good defender.
15. LaMarcus Aldridge - Good defender.

Idk why I did that. Bargnani's offense (who also would be @ 16 on this list, btw) doesn't offset his weaknesses. The above players except for Ellis, Martin, sometimes Melo, and sometimes Amar'e do.

[nubreed000]

Take the top 15 scores in the nba. at least half aren't good defenders. Basically what your saying is those teams would be willing to trade them in a heartbeat? Why was newyork willing to part with half their team i mean camelo is only better at scoring. Everyone is an idiot for liking and admiring skilled scorers i guess.

New York was willing to gut half their team because 1) Carmelo wanted to play for NY and 2) The fans wanted it. This is a clear cut example of a GM not thinking and simply giving into peer pressure.

Also, don't compare AB to Melo, cause their scoring skills are so far apart its not even funny. Andrea isn't a 30+ point threat night in, night out. Melo is.

[Tim W.]

Take the top 15 scores in the nba. at least half aren't good defenders. Basically what your saying is those teams would be willing to trade them in a heartbeat? Why was newyork willing to part with half their team i mean camelo is only better at scoring. Everyone is an idiot for liking and admiring skilled scorers i guess.

The problem is there are degrees that you're ignoring. Neither Carmelo or Amare are good defenders, but both are much better defenders than Bargnani. As for New York, there were a lot of people, including myself, that really didn't like the Knicks trading for Carmelo. I think having Amare was bad enough, but adding Carmelo pretty much kills any chance of them becoming a real contender. I was adamantly against getting Amare when the idea was proposed last year for the same reason that I'm against keeping Bargnani.

[Tim W.]

When others are willing to give him a chance to prove himself next to a legitimate center you quickly brush those arguments aside how come do you have any evidence to suggest that the raptors defense can’t improve with Bargnani playing next to a legitimate center? What have Ed Davis or Amir Johnson done to prove they deserve minutes over Bargnani and do you have any evidence to suggest they will turn out to be better players than him?
look forward to your answers

Can the defense IMPROVE with Bargnani playing next to a legit center? Sure. Can it become good? Probably not. Can it eventually be exploited, especially in the playoffs, limiting what the team can do in the offseason? Yes.

Again, Bargnani is a good offensive player, but he's really not great, so I really don't understand why you're so desperate to find a way to keep him. If Bargnani was a better player, I can understand the desire to try and figure out how to make it work. But he's not. He's not an elite scorer, not does he score very efficiently. And the rest of his game is below average.

As for what Amir and Davis have done, they've consistently worked hard AT BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. They both make a positive impact the entire time they are on the court. This isn't something I haven't said before.

[Matt52]

1. Kevin Durant - Good rebounder, disturbing efficient scorer, on pace to be in hall of fame, decent defender.
2. LeBron James - Best player alive.
3. Carmelo Anthony - High usage player that doesn't score that efficiently, lack of commitment to defense, excellent rebounder. Positives slightly outweigh negatives.
4. Dwyane Wade - Extremely efficient scorer, gambles on defense too much, but can be a GREAT one when he wants...otherwise he would not have made any all-defensive teams.
5. Kobe Bryant - Greatest player since MJ, quite arguably even better. Made All-Defensive Teams like Wade. Noticably declined on that end though. He's still not a poor defender at all though.
6. Amare Stoudemire - Poor defender, average rebounder 1/6, 3 if you wanna count KD and Kobe, I guess.
7. Derrick Rose - Was quite poor on D before, is average now. The Point God.
8. Monta Ellis - Completely right.
9. Kevin Martin - Completely right.
10. Dirk Nowitzki - Not a good defender, an average one. Worked very hard to get to that point.
11. Dwight Howard - LOL
12. Blake Griffin - Not a good defender. Likely will only be average.
13. Eric Gordon - (Damn, the Clippers have a nice core) Undersized...I'll give you this.
14. Russell Westbrook - Good defender.
15. LaMarcus Aldridge - Good defender.

Idk why I did that. Bargnani's offense (who also would be @ 16 on this list, btw) doesn't offset his weaknesses. The above players except for Ellis, Martin, sometimes Melo, and sometimes Amar'e do.

Ellis and Martin are guards and Melo is a wing. You can live with their weaknesses on defense if you have a dominant big man to erase their mistakes. When your big man is the weak link, there is nobody to cover things up. Big men are the last line of defense.

[WhatWhat]

Ellis and Martin are guards and Melo is a wing. You can live with their weaknesses on defense if you have a dominant big man to erase their mistakes. When your big man is the weak link, there is nobody to cover things up. Big men are the last line of defense.

Agreed. I just mean whether their offense generally offsets their poor defense. I would still much rather have average defenders across my starting lineup though. And all the players on the list are more efficient scorers, and far better rebounders and defenders than White Swan.

[nubreed000]

Agreed. I just mean whether their offense generally offsets their poor defense. I would still much rather have average defenders across my starting lineup though. And all the players on the list are more efficient scorers, and far better rebounders and defenders than White Swan.

And far better play makers.

[SuperRaptor]

Bringing bargnani off the bench is a solution too, he is a skilled scorer he could be used as a pretty deadly 6th man. But once again I think that if we get a defense first kind of Center, Bargnani can start at PF.

I think the future is pretty bright for the raptors guys, we draft a very talented SF, we bring in a star/veteran big through free agency, with the development of amir, davis, derozan, bayless we have a nice core of young talent. I think this team is 1 solid defensive big away from being a good team. Id like to see calderon traded for a defensive PG though. Id like to see this lineup:

PG Bayless/Defensive PG prospect.
SG Derozan/Barbosa
SF Johnson/top 3 pick/Kleiza
PF Bargnani/Amir
C Defensive Center/Ed davis

time to ditch ajinca, evans, wright, sonny weems, alabi ... maybe keep evans for leadership and weems if we can keep them cheap as hell.
Give 24-25 min. a game to all 4 bigs. We are stacked!