Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[footarez]

Unfortunately in basketball defense is almost impossible to measure on an individual basis. It is impossible to claim a person has improved their defense if your TEAM is last in defense in the NBA.

It is almost easy in basketball to determine when a big is not allowing opponent to reach his sweet spots on the floor.It is a peace of cake to see if the man is blocking out to get the rebound(and IMO blocking out is like 50% of the work to get rebound especially if you're not super athletic,like Reggie -he doesn't get that many rebounds because he out-jumps the other guys,he blocks out and pushes and moves towards getting the ball).It is also it is possible to measure improvement when watching the games and seeing and comparing this year's performance on those things I mentioned above in Amir's game and in as someone called him earlier "White Swan" So to say it is impossible to measure defense is wrong.It is not exact science but you can roughly measure it enough so that you can understand Amir is far better defender and is improving in EVERY aspect of the game,not just scoring.

Do you have any evidence to back this up. Again who would you rather have playing along side a tyson chandler?

Yes,my evidence that he deserves is pure logical thinking concluded from the facts that I have before my eyes.So I rather have Amir with Chandler especially in playoffs.You can see the commitment in defense in the playoffs right now.Defense is vital when the top 16 teams are playing it and paying so much attention on it.

Amir has been in the league longer than Andrea, it just seems hes only been in the league two years because it took an extremely long time for Amir to adjust to the NBA game. Offense is a HUGE aspect of basketball. Ask ovechkin what he does besides score 50 goals a year?

Amir is the last player selected from high school.Ofcourse it is gonna take longer to develop.And did you compare their minutes per game in their first 3 seasons?Bargnani has a lot more playing time.Offense is as HUGE aspect of the game as same as defence and rebounds the same "HUGENESS" if there is such word.(I think not but you'll have to excuse my English).I don't know this ovechkin guy and I don't care about "GOALS".I live basketball.

We all agree his defense has been sub par, so has the whole teams. As a result it’s impossible determine if one player is responsible for the team problem. Take the last game of the year as an example. Miami was resting all there stars. Yet our supposed defensive unit got embarrased by the likes of juwan howard and jamal maglore.

I agree with you.I want you to know I am not blaming only Bargnani in raptors failures on the defensive end. We turned this thread in different direction.I apologise.And if Bargnani improves even slightly in everything beside scoring I'd love him on the team.I've just lost hope after 5 years that he will ever change or become better.

Come on man Bargnani earned those minutes to think otherwise would be ignorant. He’s top 15 in NBA scoring that has to be worth SOMETHING.

Bargnani didn't earn those minutes.He had them handed to him on a silver plate by Triano.Mitchell was benching him he didn't earn the minutes.Not the same case with Triano.It is worth that he is 15.It is worth scoring but I wouldn't play a guy who can do only one thing and not do it so efficiently.
And Bargnani is not busting his tail off.When was the last time you saw Bargnani running to get a loose ball,or push under the basket for a rebound,or falling on the floor to save the ball?I admit he took some charges very well...but only remember 3-4 of those.
So many are arguing here about Bargnani.Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.Some of use think he sucks to be on the team no matter what the managment and coaching does,others think he is great no matter what and think he'd be better with another centre and stuff...

[dino]

In my opinion, Bargnani simply is not a franchise player material as of now. We should stop wasting time trying to fix something that hasn't been working for the past few years. We have a young core of AJ and ED who are committed to give their 100% effort every single night on both ends of the floor. We should stop wasting time to bring in new guys to make Bargnani "looks better".

Bargnani is a spoiled child on the floor. He doesn't need to worry about playing time on the court since his first day with the Raptors. He can do everything he wants on the floor even without playing defense. If I were Bargnani, I will keep doing the same thing - take everything for granted, do anything I like to do on the floor,including trying to score 1-on-1 on most of his processions which ended up hurting the team chemistry, since there's no penalities.

Raptors should stop worshiping Bargnani. Bench him if he does not want to play D. Let him know that it's either show efforts or no show on the court.

Hopefully it will twist his mind set and turn him into a real franchise player that we all longed for ... but maybe it's a bit too late since he already has a fat contract ...

Thoughts?

[ceez]

You're breaking new ground, Dino. Welcome!

[Fully]

I think our friend Dino may be on to something here.

[dino]

Thanks! 've been thinking to join but too lazy to open an ID for myself

[Hugmenot]

Keep in mind I am in favor of keeping Bargnani for at least another year when reading this post.

I never was a fan of Evans starting alongside Bargnani and the more I saw it, the more it annoyed me from both a Raptors fan's perspective and a Bargnani fan's perspective. Evans can neither score nor defend, all he can do (and he did it at a superb rate) is grab rebounds.

Although I don't have the data I need for a detailed post, I did stumble upon the Top Five-Man Floor Units on 82games this morning.

1. In the three units Evans played alongside Bargnani, the Raptors were outscored by 100 points in 267.3 minutes (a whopping 18.0 points per 48 minutes). Even the best of these units was bad; -8.2 points per 48 minutes
2. In the six units Amir Johnson played alongside Bargnani, the Raptors were outscored by 20 points in 728.9 minutes (1.3 points per 48 minutes).

The data for Bargnani and Davis is all over the place but that does not surprise me as Davis was a rookie and recovering from surgery. I do note Calderon-DeRozan-J Johnson-Davis-Bargnani had a positive differential when playing together (+1 in 54.9 minutes) and, in my opinion, will be the starting lineup we will see next year barring major trades.

It's a small sample size but considering Bargnani played well alongside Amir Johnson, it gives me enough reason to be cautiously optimistic.

[ceez]

Too lazy to quote, but Isaiah Thomas was a excellent defender.

[DunkinDerozan]

It is almost easy in basketball to determine when a big is not allowing opponent to reach his sweet spots on the floor.It is a peace of cake to see if the man is blocking out to get the rebound(and IMO blocking out is like 50% of the work to get rebound especially if you're not super athletic,like Reggie -he doesn't get that many rebounds because he out-jumps the other guys,he blocks out and pushes and moves towards getting the ball).It is also it is possible to measure improvement when watching the games and seeing and comparing this year's performance on those things I mentioned above in Amir's game and in as someone called him earlier "White Swan" So to say it is impossible to measure defense is wrong.It is not exact science but you can roughly measure it enough so that you can understand Amir is far better defender and is improving in EVERY aspect of the game,not just scoring.

The thing is you need to consider not only boxing out, you need consider the position of a player when grabbing an available rebound. The majority of games this year bargnani was forced to guard the pick and roll, while his defensive partner Ed, Amir, Reggie were locate underneath the basket. Logic suggest its much more likely you will get a rebound right next to the basket as appose to away from the basket. Again like I said it’s really hard to measure defense and rebounding because players on poor defensive teams often times focus on team problems, such as rotating helping out etc.. which leaves them less focused on guarding the basket and being available for rebounding opportunities.

Yes,my evidence that he deserves is pure logical thinking concluded from the facts that I have before my eyes.So I rather have Amir with Chandler especially in playoffs.You can see the commitment in defense in the playoffs right now.Defense is vital when the top 16 teams are playing it and paying so much attention on it.

Most teams in the playoffs have a scoring 4 playing alongside a true 5. Dirk, Bosh, Boozer, Aldridge, Gasol, etcc all these teams have legitimate stretch 4’s which are crucial to winning. Bargnani is ALWAYS an asset to his team on the offensive end. He spreads the floor and keeps defenses honest. His defense has steadily been improving if you discount rebounding .. his positioning has improved, he is more willing to take charges than ever before and he often tries (without much success) to help out his teammates.

Amir is the last player selected from high school.Ofcourse it is gonna take longer to develop.And did you compare their minutes per game in their first 3 seasons?Bargnani has a lot more playing time.Offense is as HUGE aspect of the game as same as defence and rebounds the same "HUGENESS" if there is such word.(I think not but you'll have to excuse my English).I don't know this ovechkin guy and I don't care about "GOALS".I live basketball.

How is coming out oh highschool any more difficult then coming strait from Europe without speaking a word of English? At least Amir was able to communicate with his coaches and not just nod his head pretending he knew what was expected of him.

I agree with you.I want you to know I am not blaming only Bargnani in raptors failures on the defensive end. We turned this thread in different direction.I apologise.And if Bargnani improves even slightly in everything beside scoring I'd love him on the team.I've just lost hope after 5 years that he will ever change or become better.

I think the defensive issue has less to do with Andrea and more to do with the team. If you put the proper defensive players around Andrea the team defensive will improve. Every team needs a balance between offense and defense. You can’t just put two defensive minded bigs in your starting lineup who provide no offense because it will become an offensive nightmare, which is why having a scoring big man is a huge advantage to any team’s success which is not measured by rebounding but WINS.

Bargnani didn't earn those minutes.He had them handed to him on a silver plate by Triano.Mitchell was benching him he didn't earn the minutes.Not the same case with Triano.It is worth that he is 15.It is worth scoring but I wouldn't play a guy who can do only one thing and not do it so efficiently.

Was he handed his 10 million dollar contract on a silver plate as well. You can’t fake talent or production at the NBA level. Colangelo and those who approve player signings don’t hand out money for nothing espcially the second time around. Yes his shooting percentage efficeny decreased from previous years but that is going to happen when you are constantly doubled teamed and have little talent around you. What I find interesting however is with the added defensive pressure and the subtraction of arguably our best player in Bosh he was still able to increase his scoring production which to me indicates his offensive skill set dramatically improved from previous years.

And Bargnani is not busting his tail off.When was the last time you saw Bargnani running to get a loose ball,or push under the basket for a rebound,or falling on the floor to save the ball?I admit he took some charges very well...but only remember 3-4 of those.

Every player has a specific role. Andrea is not paid to dive for loose balls or push around with 280 pounders. Its like asking the ceo of a company to generate income AND do the heavy lifiting. Most likely wont happen, nor is it efficient for the company since the ceo may risk pulling a back muscle and then who know which direction the company will go in. 

So many are arguing here about Bargnani.Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.Some of use think he sucks to be on the team no matter what the managment and coaching does,others think he is great no matter what and think he'd be better with another centre and stuff...

Well we can at least admit he sucks being a top 15 scorer in the NBA. So no matter what happens and what coaching does next at least we are certain of one thing, our team produced at top 15 scorer who doesn’t deserve to be here and should be traded.

[heinz57]

i actually like bargs, but i hope he gets traded.

so people will stop f$%king whining about him.

[Tim W.]

Too lazy to quote, but Isaiah Thomas was a excellent defender.

Are you talking about Isiah Thomas, the Pistons PG? I was a massive fan of his and his biggest weakness was that he wasn't a good defender. He could certainly play defense, and he wasn't horrible, but defense was not his strong suit.

[footarez]

Well we can at least admit he sucks being a top 15 scorer in the NBA. So no matter what happens and what coaching does next at least we are certain of one thing, our team produced at top 15 scorer who doesn’t deserve to be here and should be traded.

YES he should be traded.I am glad we finally agree here.I don't agree about the excuses you made about his rebounds,or that you keep pointing out his offense which might be helpful but no with the team that we have and will have.It'd take a major change in coaching and personnel so that he'd be actually contributing to win many games.The language is not excuse at all.English is not my language and yet I would understand everything my coaches are saying.Sit your ass on the books after you're drafted and learn the basics.After that while you're in country where everybody are speaking it is very easy to get it.I guess he didn't really put much effort in learning the language...no surprise for me here.And is is HUGE advantage that he came from Italy.Because in Europe he played against MEN,not against boys like Amir had.I can't stop whining about him because I don't like the way he plays.I don't like that I don't see commitment from him,I don't see effort,I don't see much positive at all.I have thought about it and I think even for him it would be better to be traded.Too much noise has been made around him this season.Too much criticism.If he gets traded he can start fresh and so will the Raptors.And most of us will quit arguing about him.We will find someone else to criticise,spit and blame...maybe Triano??

[RapthoseLeafs]

i actually like bargs, but i hope he gets traded.

so people will stop f$%king whining about him.

Yeah ... I'm so close to that feeling, it's probably passing right by me and I don't even know. In some respects, I think he should move on, just so he can experience a supportive fan base.

If I didn't know better, I think draft picks will become like free agents - not wanting to come here either.
.

[Apollo]

Raptors fans support people who work hard. I hope he can find a group of fans who soley quantify worth by one stat, PPG. In the process I hope they discard are their "junk" on to the Raptors. You know, hustle guys who can be effective with or without the ball and do things on both sides of the court which helps on off nights so that their net impact isn't negative.

[Matt52]

if bargnani isn't gone by next year, i think someone just might think of some crazy scheme to get his ass deported.

We could sneak some narcotics in to his box of Primo.

[Raptor4Ever]

Raptors fans support people who work hard.

Working Hard does not necessarily mean success. Talent and skills are needed as well. Every team needs few skilled talented player, few hard nose guys, few garbage men who dive on the floor and crash the boards and ...

You can not have a winner with having a team full of Skilled Player who do NOT work too hard or don't do the dirty Job. The same is true that you can not have a team full of garbage man who can not shoot pass the 15 feet line and dribble the ball !!

It is nice to see the fans here who are used to Hockey and ... appreciating the garbage man , blue color type players but the constant bashing of STARS in this city, be it it was VC, Bosh and now AB is just ridiculous.

[Raptor4Ever]

i actually like bargs, but i hope he gets traded.

so people will stop f$%king whining about him.

I 2nd that. I want AB in the play off next season, Just like Marco who everyone here was screaming CAN NOT play Defense and now is in Play offs and their TEAM defense is much better than ours.

AB deserves better than Toronto and I can not wait to see this team next season. I made a prediction in another thread. With BC and Jay in Charge and AB out of Toronto, This team will not win more than 18 games next season.

[Raptors_]

I 2nd that. I want AB in the play off next season, Just like Marco who everyone here was screaming CAN NOT play Defense and now is in Play offs and their TEAM defense is much better than ours.

AB deserves better than Toronto and I can not wait to see this team next season. I made a prediction in another thread. With BC and Jay in Charge and AB out of Toronto, This team will not win more than 18 games next season.

18 games? your joking right? we'll win atleast 10 more games than this season for sure. BC will make a blockbuster trade for sure.

[Apollo]

You're breaking new ground, Dino. Welcome!

Like ceez said, welcome.

[Raptor4Ever]

18 games? your joking right? we'll win atleast 10 more games than this season for sure. BC will make a blockbuster trade for sure.

I predicted between 15-25 for this season and I was pretty damn close. What was your prediction ?

[Raptors_]

I predicted between 15-25 for this season and I was pretty damn close. What was your prediction ?

around 30, i would have been right. But with half the team injured the season, i'm suprised we even won 22.