View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4921
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    Quote queengab wrote: View Post
    Hi to all,
    I never thought about all this fuss with my words. Anyway thanks to tim w. I've often read your post and some arguments are good arguments it's true. But the only thing i don't understand and some raptors fan can understand is (for me is my opinion ok?) Why raptors draft 1st round pick andrea and then have not invested so much on him?. You saw how Dirk has become stronger over the years.

    I tihnk andrea can trace the same carrier but toronto entourage didn't think the same. Yeah nba is very different respect to euro-league and italian basketball, it is focusing on the physical staff (especially for pf and c) amd andrea lack of physics prowess. Probably isn't a player for nba? I don't think so but can be an explanation. Do you know gregor fucka? A great italian pf that didn't go to nba for the poor physics. We can talking about nba basket that now isn't too basket, it's only a race for who can dunk too high or for who take 20 rbs a game. Is a game when now you can go to the bucket with for passes!!! Is not basket. Uoy say that the role is a an excuse. For me is the gist! Andrea isn't a great rebounder and defense pleayer. You coach (sam or jay) do a job to play andrea at maximun level.

    You talk about one year of kleiza dominating euro basket with Olympiacos. For on e year? ut have you ever seen some matches of olypmiakos in euroleague? Olympiakos was a very good team in 2010 not only for kleiza and compare the kleiza carrier with bargs carrier isn't good. Some euro player in nba have great carrier. How many years did you take to see the progress of pau gasol? Do you rember drazen petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis?
    Probably bargs don't become a superstar but you can't compare him with darko. If andrea improve defensive skills can be an all around player, and on offense eh has a series of weapons that any power forward haven't in NBA. Yeah he isn't a strong palyer and lack of determination but these are mentally qualities that you improve with the coaching stuff. I say this to you cause i saw him so many years that for me is impossible to realize.
    Anyway i repeat for the good of toronto is better than andrea leaves canada...

    Ciao
    gabriele

    ps: i'm a man like bo diddley say!
    queengab,

    First of all, I apologize for thinking you were a woman. I assumed that from the queengab moniker.

    Let me reiterate what others have said in response. The Raptors have given Bargnani more chances than I have ever seen a player get. And it is ultimately up to the player, not the organization. GUys like Dirk have taken it upon themselves to do what was necessary to improve. Obviously you want the team to give you the opportunities, and Bargnani has been given them. They've brought in coaches who were good teachers, they've brought in veteran players who were good mentors (Nesterovic), they've given him plenty of playing time and even fired a coach, in part, because he had too short a leash on Bargnani.

    Bargnani's had 5 years and LOTS of time and opportunities to improve. We've seen no improvement in defense and rebounding. None. With young player you, at least, want to see development. And we haven't seen any with Bargnani in anything but scoring. That tells me he simply doesn't have the tools to improve very much. It's like asking Amir Johnson to become a 20 ppg scorer. It's simply not going to happen.

    We do agree that it's best for the Raptors if Bargnani is traded.
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  2. #4922
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Actually, when you compare Bargnani's net points differential per 48 minutes (-6.5) to Evans (-10.7), and considering Evans played a lot of his minutes paired up with Bargnani, a question should be whether Evans made Bargnani looked worse than he was?

    I believe he did because the units Bargnani and Evans were on together were very ineffective.
    Evans only played 30 games and averaged 26 mpg, so I'm not sure how much of an effect he had on Bargnani over the entire season.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is a very good offensive weapon who allows his teammates to be more effective offensively.

    A few posters argue Bargnani is just a volume scorer. But curiously, when he is on the floor the team shoots at a a significant higher eFG% clip when he is on the floor than when he is not (50.1 vs 47.6). Even more curious is Bargnani's own eFG% is 48.0 and thus his teammates shoots at an approximate 50.8 effective clip when he is on the floor (I used 1/4 to weight Bargnani's contribution).

    I then looked at Ed Davis, a player with an excellent 57.6 eFG%. But curiously, the team shoots at a higher eFG% when he is off the floor than when he is on the floor (49.7 vs 48.3). If I do the same calculation, but with a 1/8 weight for Davis' contribution, his teammates shoots at an approximate 47.0 effective rate when he is on the floor.

    The question to me is how much the presence of Bargnani on the floor helps his teammates?

    There is a cost of having Bargnani on the defensive end regardless of who else is playing with him, I think we all agree to this. But I strongly believe it would be a mistake to trade Bargnani at this time when the Raptors have one (Amir Johnson) or two (Ed Davis) who could be effective with Bargnani.

    I am not suggesting the Raptors should build around Bargnani but rather, since they already have pieces which may fit well together, why not give them a test drive?
    There is no doubt that Bargnani has a positive effect on the team on the offensive end. No question. But it's not as if Bargnani is just not a good defender and rebounder. He's awful. This notion that his deficiencies could be hidden playing beside a defensive center is naive, in my opinion. You can't hide a poor defensive big man. He'll always end up hurting you, especially in the playoffs. Any team with Bargnani playing a large role will always struggle defensively when he's on the court.

    The thing I don't understand is that Bargnani is a very good offensive player. But he's not THAT good. He's not an elite scorer, nor is he a good passer. I could understand jumping through hoops to try and figure out how to use him if he were a better player, but he's not.
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  3. #4923
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    Tim, will you ever support your position with data or are we forever limited to discussing your unmeasurable opinions?

  4. #4924
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    You need data to realize Bargnani sucks?
    Last edited by nubreed000; Sun Apr 24th, 2011 at 05:28 PM.

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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    You need data to realize Bargnani sucks?
    Yes

  6. #4926
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    man looking back that was a bad decision to sign bargs, his value could have been real low now and if he wanted more we would just let him go like some kind of want here.

  7. #4927
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Tim, will you ever support your position with data or are we forever limited to discussing your unmeasurable opinions?
    Sorry? I've constantly used data to support my arguments. Take a look at his advanced stats, both offensively and defensively...

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2011.html
    http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstat...&gp=30&mins=20

    I've brought up stats over and over again. The problem is that when I bring up stats, many of the people I am debating either change the subject or simply ignore the stats.

    There are only 3 players that consistently had a positive effect while they were on the floor. Amir, Calderon and Barbosa. With Davis and DeRozan, you can excuse their numbers due to their youth and inexperience. Bargnani has been in the league 5 years, though. Just take a look at his numbers compared to other players on bad teams. The good players still get good advanced stats even when their team is awful.

    I'd get into it more, but I'm late for dinner and my parent's in law. I may add to this when I return....
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  8. #4928
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Sorry? I've constantly used data to support my arguments. Take a look at his advanced stats, both offensively and defensively...
    Or you could just pay attention to how he plays while on the court. That would require some critical thinking, analysis, and comprehension skills though.

  9. #4929
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    Or you could just pay attention to how he plays while on the court. That would require some critical thinking, analysis, and comprehension skills though.
    Apparently not everyone sees the same things we do.
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  10. #4930
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    Quote raptorsking wrote: View Post
    man looking back that was a bad decision to sign bargs, his value could have been real low now and if he wanted more we would just let him go like some kind of want here.
    It was an excellent decision to keep Bargnani. What would they have gained by letting a #1 go for nothing? At the time there was still hope for great improvements on defense and the glass. A seven footer who can score from anywhere on the floor, who is averaging 21PPG at age 25 with at a $10M/yr price tag is very marketable. At such a young age and after never playing under a high profile coach, there are going to be a lot of teams interested in taking a risk on the big guy.

  11. #4931
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Apparently not everyone sees the same things we do.
    Ignorance is definitely not bliss in this case.

  12. #4932
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    You don't know what talent you have until you don't have it anymore. There's no need to trade bargnani just for the sake of trading him.
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  13. #4933
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    A few posters argue Bargnani is just a volume scorer. But curiously, when he is on the floor the team shoots at a a significant higher eFG% clip when he is on the floor than when he is not (50.1 vs 47.6). Even more curious is Bargnani's own eFG% is 48.0 and thus his teammates shoots at an approximate 50.8 effective clip when he is on the floor (I used 1/4 to weight Bargnani's contribution).
    That's a very interesting stat, I had always wondered if there was an appreciable increase in his team mates shooting % with him on the floor. Thanks for posting it, always nice to see Bargs fans come up with good statistical arguments.

    More and more I debate the merits of trading Bargs. He's fairly cheap for a big, he's a very good offensive player who seems to make his teammates better, and there is always the chance he will start rebounding (I've given up on D). When you consider what we are likely to get back for him, it makes you kind of question the value of moving him. At worst (if he never improves) Bargs is a great sixth man and at best he is an all-star (if he adds rebounding and can improve to even a marginal defensive player). The praise he recently got from Messina also gives me pause about letting the guy go.
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  14. #4934
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    That's a very interesting stat, I had always wondered if there was an appreciable increase in his team mates shooting % with him on the floor. Thanks for posting it, always nice to see Bargs fans come up with good statistical arguments.

    More and more I debate the merits of trading Bargs. He's fairly cheap for a big, he's a very good offensive player who seems to make his teammates better, and there is always the chance he will start rebounding (I've given up on D). When you consider what we are likely to get back for him, it makes you kind of question the value of moving him. At worst (if he never improves) Bargs is a great sixth man and at best he is an all-star (if he adds rebounding and can improve to even a marginal defensive player). The praise he recently got from Messina also gives me pause about letting the guy go.
    I think you're overvaluing Bargnani's effect on offense. Most good offensive players will have a positive effect on his teammates simply by taking defensive pressure off them. The fact is, though, Amir Johnson has a more positive effect on the offense than Bargnani does. They score more and more efficiently when he's on the court. More so than when Bargnani is on the court. And that says nothing about the effect they both have on defense.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR2.HTM

    And what you're ignoring is the overall effect Bargnani has on the team, which is apparently negative.
    Player Min Own Opp Net On Off Net Rating
    Bargnani 59% 17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5 -3.0
    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

    I'm also curious why, after five years of seeing no progress in rebounding, you still think he can improve in the area.

    See, this is what I don't understand. No one is denying the positive effect that Bargnani has on the offense, but Calderon has just as positive effect, if not more, but I don't see Raptor fans clamouring to want to keep him. Why? And Calderon doesn't have such a negative effect on the defense. In fact, he has an overall positive effect on the team...

    Player Min Own Opp Net On Off Net Rating
    Calderon 53% 17.4 18.0 -0.5 -3.9 -9.0 +5.1 +1.4

    While Bargnani was 15th in scoring, Calderon was 5th in assists, he has a higher offensive rating, a lower defensive rating (lower is better) and is one of only three Raptors who, statistically, have an overall positive effect on the team. Good floor leaders are far more difficult to find than good scorers, and generally have a more positive effect on his teammates, yet people are in such a hurry to ship Calderon out and are so desperate to find a way to keep Bargnani.

    WHile Bargnani gets paid a decent salary for a starting center, he's vastly overpaid for the role of a bench player, where he most likely will end up.

    Any way you look at it, the level of production he brings and the overall effect he has on the team is completely out of whack in comparison to the level of desire some fans have for wanting to figure out how to keep him. People wonder why I'm so vocal about this subject? That is exactly why. It's like a construction team trying to make a crooked door work when it makes a hell of a lot more sense to just get a new door that isn't crooked.

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  15. #4935
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think you're overvaluing Bargnani's effect on offense. Most good offensive players will have a positive effect on his teammates simply by taking defensive pressure off them. The fact is, though, Amir Johnson has a more positive effect on the offense than Bargnani does. They score more and more efficiently when he's on the court. More so than when Bargnani is on the court. And that says nothing about the effect they both have on defense.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR2.HTM

    And what you're ignoring is the overall effect Bargnani has on the team, which is apparently negative.
    Player Min Own Opp Net On Off Net Rating
    Bargnani 59% 17.1 21.3 -4.2 -6.5 -5.9 -0.5 -3.0
    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

    I'm also curious why, after five years of seeing no progress in rebounding, you still think he can improve in the area.

    See, this is what I don't understand. No one is denying the positive effect that Bargnani has on the offense, but Calderon has just as positive effect, if not more, but I don't see Raptor fans clamouring to want to keep him. Why? And Calderon doesn't have such a negative effect on the defense. In fact, he has an overall positive effect on the team...

    Player Min Own Opp Net On Off Net Rating
    Calderon 53% 17.4 18.0 -0.5 -3.9 -9.0 +5.1 +1.4

    While Bargnani was 15th in scoring, Calderon was 5th in assists, he has a higher offensive rating, a lower defensive rating (lower is better) and is one of only three Raptors who, statistically, have an overall positive effect on the team. Good floor leaders are far more difficult to find than good scorers, and generally have a more positive effect on his teammates, yet people are in such a hurry to ship Calderon out and are so desperate to find a way to keep Bargnani.

    WHile Bargnani gets paid a decent salary for a starting center, he's vastly overpaid for the role of a bench player, where he most likely will end up.

    Any way you look at it, the level of production he brings and the overall effect he has on the team is completely out of whack in comparison to the level of desire some fans have for wanting to figure out how to keep him. People wonder why I'm so vocal about this subject? That is exactly why. It's like a construction team trying to make a crooked door work when it makes a hell of a lot more sense to just get a new door that isn't crooked.

    Well, first off I like Calderon and the only reason I'd like him moved is if we found a star somehow and couldn't afford to keep him. Like you said, he is one of the few players on the team who has a net positive impact, he is one of the best decision makers in the NBA, and he is a skill player so he still has a lot of good years left. I've flip flopped on Calderon (much like I do on Bargs) before but I'm now firmly in his corner

    The thing is Tim W., we have no superstar and there is a minuscule chance Bargs can be one. I admit, I used to have a lot more faith in Bargs than I do now in terms of his ability to finally turn the corner, but the fact is that if there is still a fools chance that he can get it together and having a fools chance is better than giving up and having no chance at all. What I have trouble with when talking Bargs is determining when you cut your losses. Many argue that we already should have, others argue that it's not time yet, while a third group contests there are no losses to cut and he's awesome. It becomes a matter of risk vs reward for me:

    Risk: Bargs is who we think he is, we keep him around and he eats up cap space and money until we can move him. Maybe he even gets injured and becomes hard to move.

    Reward: Bargs suddenly gets it and we have an elite all-star.

    The risk here is far far more likely to occur but that risk is really not so bad: cap space is not overly important in a draft rebuild since we are a year or two away from trying so sign any expensive guys and we really have no one else to play the bulk of his minutes anyway. If he gets injured and is hard to move his contract is not so bad that it would cripple us completely.

    If the reward does occur, and I want to stress I don't see this as likely, it makes this franchise a playoff team and a possible threat.

    If you were to put odds on it, it's probably something like 10000 to 1 that he becomes a complete player, but there is little harm in taking the chance. It's like buying a million dollar lottery ticket for 50 cents: sure you probably won't win, but have you really hurt yourself that much through the investment? It would be different if we had some great prospect he was stealing minutes from or we were passing up great deals for him, but I don't see either of those things happening at the moment.

    If we draft Valciunas or another center, or if they try him at PF and he cuts into Ed's minutes he should be moved, but if things remain as they are now, I see no reason to push for a trade.
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  16. #4936
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Well, first off I like Calderon and the only reason I'd like him moved is if we found a star somehow and couldn't afford to keep him. Like you said, he is one of the few players on the team who has a net positive impact, he is one of the best decision makers in the NBA, and he is a skill player so he still has a lot of good years left. I've flip flopped on Calderon (much like I do on Bargs) before but I'm now firmly in his corner

    The thing is Tim W., we have no superstar and there is a minuscule chance Bargs can be one. I admit, I used to have a lot more faith in Bargs than I do now in terms of his ability to finally turn the corner, but the fact is that if there is still a fools chance that he can get it together and having a fools chance is better than giving up and having no chance at all. What I have trouble with when talking Bargs is determining when you cut your losses. Many argue that we already should have, others argue that it's not time yet, while a third group contests there are no losses to cut and he's awesome. It becomes a matter of risk vs reward for me:

    Risk: Bargs is who we think he is, we keep him around and he eats up cap space and money until we can move him. Maybe he even gets injured and becomes hard to move.

    Reward: Bargs suddenly gets it and we have an elite all-star.

    The risk here is far far more likely to occur but that risk is really not so bad: cap space is not overly important in a draft rebuild since we are a year or two away from trying so sign any expensive guys and we really have no one else to play the bulk of his minutes anyway. If he gets injured and is hard to move his contract is not so bad that it would cripple us completely.

    If the reward does occur, and I want to stress I don't see this as likely, it makes this franchise a playoff team and a possible threat.

    If you were to put odds on it, it's probably something like 10000 to 1 that he becomes a complete player, but there is little harm in taking the chance. It's like buying a million dollar lottery ticket for 50 cents: sure you probably won't win, but have you really hurt yourself that much through the investment? It would be different if we had some great prospect he was stealing minutes from or we were passing up great deals for him, but I don't see either of those things happening at the moment.

    If we draft Valciunas or another center, or if they try him at PF and he cuts into Ed's minutes he should be moved, but if things remain as they are now, I see no reason to push for a trade.
    There is more risk to keeping him, unfortunately. If he stays in the team and continues to get more than 20 mpg, then he has a detrimental effect on the team. The team continues to struggle defensively and never reaches the level that they could. Basically, the big risk to keeping him is lowering the team's ceiling. To me, that's simply not worth it.

    And the risk to keeping him now and moving him later is that it becomes that much more difficult to trade him. It's a lot easier to trade a 25 year old player who just scored 21 ppg for the season making $8 million who might still have some potential than a 27 year player who it's becoming clear is a bench player and is making $10 million. His value peaked last summer, before he was fully exposed, as he was this year. Just think how many fans he lost this season. His value went down despite his scoring going up. And value certainly isn't going to go up as he gets older.

    The safest thing for the team is to trade him this summer and let another team have to deal with how on earth to use him effectively. After 5 years, I think it's clear he'll never "put it all together". Quite frankly, I never thought he ever had the tools to become an elite player.
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    I just relaized that Andrea had more defensive rebounds per game than Amir. I find this hilarious..... Sure you can say per 36 amir would average more but how you continue crisizing Andrea's defense yet praising Amir's is comical when in fact Andrea avereages more boards on the DEFENSIVE end.

    Offensive rebounding is impossible to compare since Andrea is mostly on the peremitier and or being defended by 1 or 2 players constantly. Amir is often unguarded giving him easy access to the offensive rebounds. Can't you relate the twoo

    Amir high true shooting percentage + high offensive rebound rate, yet less than 10ppg. This is clear indication of a player being being let to roam free on the offensive end, it indicates open shots, easy putbacks from offensive rebounds because other team is not focuisng on him. The less the defense focuses on you the more inflated your offensive rebounds become and the higher your effectiveness appears.
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Apr 25th, 2011 at 04:47 PM.

  18. #4938
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    There is more risk to keeping him, unfortunately. If he stays in the team and continues to get more than 20 mpg, then he has a detrimental effect on the team. The team continues to struggle defensively and never reaches the level that they could. Basically, the big risk to keeping him is lowering the team's ceiling. To me, that's simply not worth it.

    And the risk to keeping him now and moving him later is that it becomes that much more difficult to trade him. It's a lot easier to trade a 25 year old player who just scored 21 ppg for the season making $8 million who might still have some potential than a 27 year player who it's becoming clear is a bench player and is making $10 million. His value peaked last summer, before he was fully exposed, as he was this year. Just think how many fans he lost this season. His value went down despite his scoring going up. And value certainly isn't going to go up as he gets older.

    The safest thing for the team is to trade him this summer and let another team have to deal with how on earth to use him effectively. After 5 years, I think it's clear he'll never "put it all together". Quite frankly, I never thought he ever had the tools to become an elite player.
    I can't disagree with anything you said really, I guess it's a preference thing. I don't think this current group has a high ceiling defensively with or without him but maybe I'm undervaluing the effect a better defensive center coupled with a guy like Ed Davis developing further will have. It comes down to expectations: yours were always low where mine were high. I'd like to be right and the only way that will happen is if we keep him, you'd like to be right and the most definitive way to say that he is a failed project is to trade him. I'm not saying you want him to be bad, I know that you would love him to magically become a 25 and 8 guy who is not a sieve on D just like I would, just that you never had the expectations that many of us did and his being traded would justify your criticism meaning there is no motive to wanting him to stay to see if he can turn it around.

    Not to belabor the point but it all comes down to these expectations. If you expect that taking Bargs off the team and replacing him with someone who is a completely average player will greatly improve d or, even raise our defensive ceiling appreciably, then of course you want him gone. If you think it would only cause our defense to get slightly better while making our offense slightly worse it's not really something you are going to jump at.
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  19. #4939
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    I just relaized that Andrea had more defensive rebounds per game than Amir. I find this hilarious..... Sure you can say per 36 amir would average more but how you continue crisizing Andrea's defense yet praising Amir's is comical when in fact Andrea avereages more boards on the DEFENSIVE end.

    Offensive rebounding is impossible to compare since Andrea is mostly on the peremitier and or being defended by 1 or 2 players constantly. Amir is often unguarded giving him easy access to the offensive rebounds. Can't you relate the twoo

    Amir high true shooting percentage + high offensive rebound rate, yet less than 10ppg. This is clear indication of a player being being let to roam free on the offensive end, it indicates open shots, easy putbacks from offensive rebounds because other team is not focuisng on him. The less the defense focuses on you the more inflated your offensive rebounds become and the higher your effectiveness appears.
    Bargnani averages 0.3 more defensive rebounds IN 10 MORE MINUTES PER GAME!!!!! Amir grabs defensive rebounds at a higher rate than Bargnani. Period. And believe it or not, defensive rebounding is only one part of defense. You can't simply look at one stat out of context and reach a conclusion based on that. That's ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure you know it. And what's even more ridiculous is that you want to look at defensive rebounds out of context, but not true shooting percentage. You're completely inconsistent in your argument.

    Amir is a better defensive player than Bargnani. There's really no way around that. He's got better defensive stats across the board, and that's despite defending the tougher front court player 90% of the time.

    And in regards to your argument that Bargnani can't get offensive rebounds because he's out on the perimeter, let's look at Channing Frye. 90% of Frye's shots are jumpshots from outside the paint, yet he was able to average more rebounds per game, including 1.3 more offensive rebounds a game, despite playing only 24.2 mpg. So why is it that Frye seems to be able to not only rebound, but grab offensive rebounds, while being a perimeter player?
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    I just relaized that Andrea had more defensive rebounds per game than Amir. I find this hilarious..... Sure you can say per 36 amir would average more but how you continue crisizing Andrea's defense yet praising Amir's is comical when in fact Andrea avereages more boards on the DEFENSIVE end.
    During the extra 10 minutes Andrea is on the court ofcourse he'll get more rebounds even by accident the ball would fall near him.Sometimes just looking at the stats doesn't prove much about such point.If you've watched the games you should have noticed the difference between Andrea's rebounds and A.Johnsons's especially on the defensive end.You have a good point about Amir being sometimes left open on offense but it is not entirely due to someone else but his own effort and work to be open.By the way how many times has Amir tipped or slapped the ball to help his teammate get the ball compared to Bargnani?It doesn't show up on stats but when Amir is fighting under the basket and deflects the ball and the ball ends up in some other raptor's hands?The rebound is written to the guy who gains possession of the ball.I've seen numerous times Amir doing exactly that,but I don't remember A.Bragnani doing that more than once.That is just an example that not everything can be seen in stats.

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