View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #4941
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I can't disagree with anything you said really, I guess it's a preference thing. I don't think this current group has a high ceiling defensively with or without him but maybe I'm undervaluing the effect a better defensive center coupled with a guy like Ed Davis developing further will have. It comes down to expectations: yours were always low where mine were high. I'd like to be right and the only way that will happen is if we keep him, you'd like to be right and the most definitive way to say that he is a failed project is to trade him. I'm not saying you want him to be bad, I know that you would love him to magically become a 25 and 8 guy who is not a sieve on D just like I would, just that you never had the expectations that many of us did and his being traded would justify your criticism meaning there is no motive to wanting him to stay to see if he can turn it around.

    Not to belabor the point but it all comes down to these expectations. If you expect that taking Bargs off the team and replacing him with someone who is a completely average player will greatly improve d or, even raise our defensive ceiling appreciably, then of course you want him gone. If you think it would only cause our defense to get slightly better while making our offense slightly worse it's not really something you are going to jump at.
    And I can't disagree with anything you said. I understand where you're coming from, we just disagree on where we're going.
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  2. #4942
    Raptors Republic Starter raptorsking's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    I just relaized that Andrea had more defensive rebounds per game than Amir. I find this hilarious..... Sure you can say per 36 amir would average more but how you continue crisizing Andrea's defense yet praising Amir's is comical when in fact Andrea avereages more boards on the DEFENSIVE end.

    Offensive rebounding is impossible to compare since Andrea is mostly on the peremitier and or being defended by 1 or 2 players constantly. Amir is often unguarded giving him easy access to the offensive rebounds. Can't you relate the twoo

    Amir high true shooting percentage + high offensive rebound rate, yet less than 10ppg. This is clear indication of a player being being let to roam free on the offensive end, it indicates open shots, easy putbacks from offensive rebounds because other team is not focuisng on him. The less the defense focuses on you the more inflated your offensive rebounds become and the higher your effectiveness appears.
    really? the first paragraph is comical you completely dismiss the per 36 as if it really isn't much,

  3. #4943
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think you're overvaluing Bargnani's effect on offense. Most good offensive players will have a positive effect on his teammates simply by taking defensive pressure off them. The fact is, though, Amir Johnson has a more positive effect on the offense than Bargnani does. They score more and more efficiently when he's on the court.
    The Raptors shoot at 49.4 eFG% rate when Amir Johnson is on the court and 48.4 when he is off the court. If I do the same calculation I did for Bargnani and Davis but with a 1/6 weight, his teammates shot at exactly the same 48.4% eFG% they did while he was off the floor.

    My interpretation is while the offense is more effective with Amir Johnson on the floor then off, his presence on the floor does not create easier, or harder, opportunities for his teammates.

    As to Raptors scoring more with Amir Johnson on the floor, then with Andrea Bargnani on the floor:

    The Raptors scored 4943 points in the 2352 minutes Bargnani was on the floor (100.88 per48)
    The Raptors scored 3874 points in the 1851 minutes Amir Johnson was on the floor (100.46)

    Bargnani is slightly ahead but the difference is insignificant.

    The Raptors scored 1.08 per possession with Bargnani on the floor
    The Raptors scored 1.09 per possession with Amir Johnson on the floor

    Advantage Amir Jonson this time but again, insignificant.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And that says nothing about the effect they both have on defense.
    Amir is a much better defender; no one denies that.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm also curious why, after five years of seeing no progress in rebounding, you still think he can improve in the area.
    Andrea's DRR was 16.4, 16.0, and 13.9 the past 3 years. If he can go back to a 16.0+, this may be good enough for the team.

    Andrea is an awful offensive rebounder and I doubt this number will increase significantly unless if he continues to shoot 80% jump shots.

    While on the subject of rebounding, it is interesting to note that while Amir is an excellent offensive rebounder, he posted slightly below average PF DRR for the past three years.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    See, this is what I don't understand. No one is denying the positive effect that Bargnani has on the offense, but Calderon has just as positive effect, if not more, but I don't see Raptor fans clamouring to want to keep him.
    I already stated I want Bargnani and Calderon to be starters next year. I predicted Ed Davis will be the starting PF but I would not be surprised at all if Bargnani, Davis, and Johnson have roughly the same mpg.

    I would like the Raptors to acquire a very good defensive backup center.

    I am not sold at all on Bayless as his teammates perform worse when he is directing the offense.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Any way you look at it, the level of production he (Bargnani) brings and the overall effect he has on the team is completely out of whack in comparison to the level of desire some fans have for wanting to figure out how to keep him.
    That's your opinion, not fact.

  4. #4944
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani averages 0.3 more defensive rebounds IN 10 MORE MINUTES PER GAME!!!!! Amir grabs defensive rebounds at a higher rate than Bargnani. Period. And believe it or not, defensive rebounding is only one part of defense. You can't simply look at one stat out of context and reach a conclusion based on that. That's ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure you know it. And what's even more ridiculous is that you want to look at defensive rebounds out of context, but not true shooting percentage. You're completely inconsistent in your argument.

    Amir is a better defensive player than Bargnani. There's really no way around that. He's got better defensive stats across the board, and that's despite defending the tougher front court player 90% of the time.

    And in regards to your argument that Bargnani can't get offensive rebounds because he's out on the perimeter, let's look at Channing Frye. 90% of Frye's shots are jumpshots from outside the paint, yet he was able to average more rebounds per game, including 1.3 more offensive rebounds a game, despite playing only 24.2 mpg. So why is it that Frye seems to be able to not only rebound, but grab offensive rebounds, while being a perimeter player?
    bargnani's a HORRIBLE defender ... he averaged more defensive rebounds than Amir just sayinng.. if amir wouldnt be so foul prone he may have been able to avg 35 mpgg...

    now i know your making things upp.. 90% of the time? where are you getting this data ?

    channing frye isan't on our team so bringing him up is irrelevant.

  5. #4945
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    I guess he meant Frye's rookie season when he averaged more than 2 off rebounds per game and was used as comparison of a big man whos style of game is mostly around the perimeter.

  6. #4946
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote raptorsking wrote: View Post
    really? the first paragraph is comical you completely dismiss the per 36 as if it really isn't much,
    either blame the coach or the player... ask yourself whyyy did bargnani earn 10 mre minutes per game
    dont jus adjust the stats to per 36

  7. #4947
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    I guess he meant Frye's rookie season when he averaged more than 2 off rebounds per game and was used as comparison of a big man whos style of game is mostly around the perimeter.
    again bringing frye into the argument is irrelevant

    but ask yourself what could be some possible reasons for his high offensive rebounding #'s ....

    was he a focal point on offense? were his teamates skilled enough to attract double teams? or was he shadowed by his defender and doubl teamed all the time? did he shoot the highest percentage of his team shots? or was he the receipient of an open lane to the basket on other peoples misses?
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Mon Apr 25th, 2011 at 06:35 PM.

  8. #4948
    Raptors Republic Starter raptorsking's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    either blame the coach or the player... ask yourself whyyy did bargnani earn 10 mre minutes per game
    dont jus adjust the stats to per 36
    1. He's a lot more talented.
    2. de-facto franchise player

    triano obviously doesn't have the balls to sit bargnani especially at his price tag, i remember one game where ed davis was going off i mean off vs the pacers but bargs was still being played even though he was struggling and continued to struggle down the stretch.
    Last edited by raptorsking; Mon Apr 25th, 2011 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #4949
    Raptors Republic Starter raptorsking's Avatar
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    and he also fouls a lot probably why he didn't get as much playing time it still wouldn't be up to 36 min imo though, he has a fouling trouble not rebounding so i don't know the point of bashing his work on the boards,

  10. #4950
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    The Raptors shoot at 49.4 eFG% rate when Amir Johnson is on the court and 48.4 when he is off the court. If I do the same calculation I did for Bargnani and Davis but with a 1/6 weight, his teammates shot at exactly the same 48.4% eFG% they did while he was off the floor.

    My interpretation is while the offense is more effective with Amir Johnson on the floor then off, his presence on the floor does not create easier, or harder, opportunities for his teammates.

    As to Raptors scoring more with Amir Johnson on the floor, then with Andrea Bargnani on the floor:

    The Raptors scored 4943 points in the 2352 minutes Bargnani was on the floor (100.88 per48)
    The Raptors scored 3874 points in the 1851 minutes Amir Johnson was on the floor (100.46)

    Bargnani is slightly ahead but the difference is insignificant.

    The Raptors scored 1.08 per possession with Bargnani on the floor
    The Raptors scored 1.09 per possession with Amir Johnson on the floor

    Advantage Amir Jonson this time but again, insignificant.
    Whether or not Amir actually creates opportunities for others, Amir has a similar effect on the offense that Bargnani does. So if they have an equal effect on offense, but on defense Amir is better, then it Amir has a better overall effect on the team.

    Now, obviously Bargnani creates more opportunities for others, but so would any other good scorer. But if you can get a good scorer who also isn't a liability on defense, then you're that much better.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Amir is a much better defender; no one denies that.
    Actually there are a couple that do, but that's another issue altogether.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Andrea's DRR was 16.4, 16.0, and 13.9 the past 3 years. If he can go back to a 16.0+, this may be good enough for the team.

    Andrea is an awful offensive rebounder and I doubt this number will increase significantly unless if he continues to shoot 80% jump shots.

    While on the subject of rebounding, it is interesting to note that while Amir is an excellent offensive rebounder, he posted slightly below average PF DRR for the past three years.
    I completely agree that Amir is not a good defensive rebounder, which is why teaming him with Bargnani is a bad idea. One thing about rebounding I've noticed. The bigger, stronger guys tend to be better defensive rebounders and the quicker, more active guys tend to be better offensive rebounders. It's obviously the way that rebounds are obtained. Defensive rebounders generally require boxing your man out and out muscling him. Offensive rebounding is about getting to the ball and getting around your opponent.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I already stated I want Bargnani and Calderon to be starters next year. I predicted Ed Davis will be the starting PF but I would not be surprised at all if Bargnani, Davis, and Johnson have roughly the same mpg.

    I would like the Raptors to acquire a very good defensive backup center.

    I am not sold at all on Bayless as his teammates perform worse when he is directing the offense.
    I'm also not sold on Bayless, and I've been a consistent defender of Calderon, but I also don't think he's probably the long term answer at PG, for the Raptors. I think he can start on a contender, but he would have to be surrounded by much more talent than he is right now.

    As for a triumvirate of Bargnani, Davis and Amir, we've already seen that simply doesn't work. I'm not sure what you're expecting to be different in the future.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    That's your opinion, not fact.
    It's definitely my opinion, but the fact of the matter is that Bargnani does not have an overall positive effect on the team. Neither do DeRozan and Davis, but they can be excused, at this point, because of their youth. If you haven't learned how to have a positive effect on the floor after five years (and as many minutes as Bargnani has played) I really don't see you ever becoming that important a player. Knowing this, why are some fans so desperate to try and make it work?
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  11. #4951
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    bargnani's a HORRIBLE defender ... he averaged more defensive rebounds than Amir just sayinng.. if amir wouldnt be so foul prone he may have been able to avg 35 mpgg...
    Yes, Bargnani is a horrible defender. And yes, Bargnani averaged more defensive rebounds in 10 more minutes, but if Bargnani were coached by someone who would have held him more accountable on defense, he would have ended up playing fewer minutes than Amir. And Amir's minutes were not only limited by foul trouble, but by his back injury and to give more playing time to Ed Davis. In fact, Amir fouled at a career low rate this season, showing a massive improvement in that area. APer 36 mpg, Amir averaged 5.1 fouls, as opposed to more than 6 in previous years. Joey Dorsey actually fouled at a higher rate than Amir did.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    now i know your making things upp.. 90% of the time? where are you getting this data ?
    And the 90% was an approximate number, which I thought was fairly obvious. The fact of the matter is that when Amir played with Bargnani, Amir would almost always check the more difficult offensive player. A fact that only you seem to dispute.
    Last edited by Tim W.; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 01:36 AM.
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  12. #4952
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    I guess he meant Frye's rookie season when he averaged more than 2 off rebounds per game and was used as comparison of a big man whos style of game is mostly around the perimeter.
    Yes, I was looking at his rookie season.

    Really, no one is really disputing that a player who plays on the perimeter is going to get fewer offensive rebounds, but there's absolutely no excuse why he can't get more defensive rebounds. The whole problem with Bargnani is that he never tries to make up for areas which he is weak in.
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  13. #4953
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Knowing this, why are some fans so desperate to try and make it work?
    Tim I feel bad for you (and not in a patronizing way) but you seem genuinely cornfuzed by those who seem really insistent that we can make Barg's work or should find a way to make it work. I believe I might be able to illuminate the situation for you. The majority of bargs fanatics (and I don't include Hugemenot, pronounced huge-me-noh en francais) is that they are of the opinion that bargnani's ability to score 20+ points a game, with his size and skill set, demonstrates that he is a more valuable player than your advanced stats/metrics demonstrate he is inefficient/ineffective. It doesn't really matter that you believe such people to be over valuing pure scoring numbers, nor does it matter that you use empirical evidence to support your position. Empirical evidence and statistical models despite their adherence to strict scientific rigour do not automatically become "true" even if we (you and I) believe it to be a superior method of determining "truth". Perfect analogies can be found in Climate Change discussion, arguments over how old the earth is (5000 years and we used to ride dinosaurs), or whether or not the holocaust actually happened. AND NO I'm not saying that bargnani supporters are also holacaust deniers just that if they are of the opinion that your statistical analysis is not as valid as their own perspective it is unlikely that more statistical evidence will change any minds. This isn't meant to be a criticism of your analysis, which I do believe to be statistically relevant and thus more reflective of the reality we live in, than some opinions of some of the more fanatical bargnani supporters, but you seem to be getting quite frustrated. If you accept the reality that the scientific method has never convinced everyone all at once of any one thing, and limited your debates about bargnani to those who will at least agree to argue from an empirical basis, like Hugemonet seems to be doing, you might not have to worry about losing your sanity. However, if you feel you need to be zealous (cheeky, I know!) in your defence of the superiority of the scientific method than have at 'er! You just may want to stop banging your head against the wall before your skull cracks!
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  14. #4954
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Tim I feel bad for you (and not in a patronizing way) but you seem genuinely cornfuzed by those who seem really insistent that we can make Barg's work or should find a way to make it work. I believe I might be able to illuminate the situation for you. The majority of bargs fanatics (and I don't include Hugemenot, pronounced huge-me-noh en francais) is that they are of the opinion that bargnani's ability to score 20+ points a game, with his size and skill set, demonstrates that he is a more valuable player than your advanced stats/metrics demonstrate he is inefficient/ineffective. It doesn't really matter that you believe such people to be over valuing pure scoring numbers, nor does it matter that you use empirical evidence to support your position. Empirical evidence and statistical models despite their adherence to strict scientific rigour do not automatically become "true" even if we (you and I) believe it to be a superior method of determining "truth". Perfect analogies can be found in Climate Change discussion, arguments over how old the earth is (5000 years and we used to ride dinosaurs), or whether or not the holocaust actually happened. AND NO I'm not saying that bargnani supporters are also holacaust deniers just that if they are of the opinion that your statistical analysis is not as valid as their own perspective it is unlikely that more statistical evidence will change any minds. This isn't meant to be a criticism of your analysis, which I do believe to be statistically relevant and thus more reflective of the reality we live in, than some opinions of some of the more fanatical bargnani supporters, but you seem to be getting quite frustrated. If you accept the reality that the scientific method has never convinced everyone all at once of any one thing, and limited your debates about bargnani to those who will at least agree to argue from an empirical basis, like Hugemonet seems to be doing, you might not have to worry about losing your sanity. However, if you feel you need to be zealous (cheeky, I know!) in your defence of the superiority of the scientific method than have at 'er! You just may want to stop banging your head against the wall before your skull cracks!
    ezz_bee, thank you (and also not in a patronizing way). I do understand what you're saying completely, but there is still part of me that thinks that, at some point, even those who deny empirical evidence will eventually see the logic in the argument. I think I just refuse to believe that people can continue to deny the obvious for very long. No, it's certainly not good for my sanity, but I gave up on trying to keep that long, long ago.

    And I agree that Hugmenot does not belong in the same category as some others, since his arguments are well researched and argued. Just for the record, though, it's not Hugemenot, but Hugmenot, which, I believe, is not french but simply a shortened version of Hug Me Not. I actually assumed it was french, as well, until I actually took a closer look at the spelling. Maybe the actual poster can enlighten us the exact meaning of his moniker.
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  15. #4955
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani's Old Coach Messina Comes to His Defense

    ''Bargnani and 'grew from year to year, and' always improved. Did not deserve those piles of mud.'' Canadian criticism to the 'magician' is excessive and unjustified: word coach Ettore Messina. Andrea Bargnani has come under fire by Jerry Colangelo, president and general manager of the Toronto Raptors, after the negative closed season with 22 victories and 60 defeats. The long Roman, the first overall pick in 2006, ended the year with 21.4 points and 5.2 rebounds per game, often charging the attack on the shoulders of training led by coach Jay Triano. Conference in late season, Bargnani Colangelo called''the enigma of all enigmas''pointing the finger at the player, into a sort of scapegoat.
    Ah, wrong Colangelo dude but point taken.

    ''It does not seem right,''says Messina, who coached Benetton Treviso to Bargnani. Andrea,''says the coach-ADNKRONOS has always done better every year. I've coached, I know that person '. Has certain technical features, like everyone needs to feel at ease to do their best. Pull his piles of mud on him does not seem quite correct: in addition, we are not talking about a selfless young man. It 's a player who can stay in a dressing room and who knows what a team.''

    ''I respect the opinions of all and not let me go outside in detailed technical discussions. In principle, however, we are talking about a player growing. Andrea does not play for stats, play for the team but should not be too exciting to be part of a team to 20 wins per season,''says Messina.

    The 'magician' is related to the Raptors by a valid contract until 2015. ''I hope that Andrew is adequately reflected environmental and technical, in Toronto at this point it seems difficult to reconcile the relationship. The hope of finding the conditions to do better, and this also blue key,''says Messina.

    If Toronto really wants to sell the 25-year old Roman, the first move did not appear bright:''I do not see a genius in terms of communication and marketing, and sprimersi in this way on a player still under contract. Who was general manager of the year twice, one expects something more constructive. If they thought to stimulate Bargnani has not been found, however, a large ...''.
    Source: adnkronos.com
    Source: adnkronos.com (Google Translation)

    If only Messina could have passed on these "help defense" techniques to the big fella. Maybe he wouldn't be under fire now?

  16. #4956
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    Default Armstong: The kid gloves are finally off

    I found Bryan Colangelo's comments about him at a press conference last Monday to be quite revealing when he spoke about his rebounding and defence. Was I surprised by it? At this stage, no. Bottom line, when a player that you've bent over backward to try to nurture and bring along and develop and show support and patience with continues to frustrate/perplex you and puts your own livelihood on the line, you tend to say enough is enough. If Bargnani returns to the Raptors next season, he not only owes the organization, the fans, his teammates and himself a lot more, he owes Colangelo and Jay Triano greater commitment to everything being asked/demanded of him. He's been treated very fairly and at times they've enabled him too much. He has let them down. The "kid gloves" are rightfully off now and obviously should have been off way sooner. It's now or never. As a man, you look in the mirror and question yourself and what you stand for at this stage. Congrats to him on having a career year in points per game but how does it feel to be on a 60-loss team? Time to respond to the challenge. He CAN do it. Will he? Your guess is as good as mine.
    Source: Jack Armstrong's Blog, Raptors.com

    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Source

  17. #4957
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    That pretty much sums up my sentiments to Bargnani exactly. It is put up or shut up time.

  18. #4958
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    Its Bargs or BC , and BC has the cajones now to bite the bullet and get rid of him. Now as for rebuilding all we need is Stan Van Gundy to get fired and maybe this team will be on its way to contention.

  19. #4959
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    I don't think Colangelo's comments have anything to do with guts. This has everything to do with being on the edge of the plank.

  20. #4960
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    It is actually fun thing arguing about Bargnani especially if you don't have much to do at work lol .Thank you financial crisis
    Tim W. and many try to give facts,and use logical thinking operating with the facts from statistics and observation from watching the games.Which is IMO the right way to determine whether a player sucks or not.Bargnani defenders tend to back up their opinion only with the fact that Bargnani can score(not so efficiently as they think btw) and they deny any fact given to them that shows he isn't what they think he is.And someone who actually knows the game should recognise that.Even if they are just fans who just watch the games(or I have a feeling sometimes just read the boxscore) given the arguments backed up with facts should see it only by using logical thinking.I don't believe most posters here are women(no offense I just read they are less logical...don't know if it's true but if you think about it.... ) so how aren't they seeing it?I don't get it how they don't see it therefore there is still a chance for them to be enlightened about that matter.

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