View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5001
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    It's not good for casual fans when the announcers continuously bash their "best player". Ratings and who actually employs them are a huge factor.

    I know Leo made a comment or two, but compare that to how many time he says, "Folks, that's a 7 footer out there."
    No one is asking for bashing. Objectivity needs to be preached. They can also lay off all the accolades for players that they know are underachieving. You don't have to trash them but stop telling me how good they are when their dropping 21 pts on 18 shots per game. You don't gain higher ratings by bigging up a 60 loss team.

    Leo is not a favorite around these parts but he is usually the only broadcaster to typically try and provide a range of commentary both good and bad.

  2. #5002
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    No one is asking for bashing. Objectivity needs to be preached. They can also lay off all the accolades for players that they know are underachieving. You don't have to trash them but stop telling me how good they are when their dropping 21 pts on 18 shots per game. You don't gain higher ratings by bigging up a 60 loss team.

    Leo is not a favorite around these parts but he is usually the only broadcaster to typically try and provide a range of commentary both good and bad.
    I would love some objectivity too, but that like asking for your company newsletter to bash the GM.

    I'm also one of the Leo haters, but I do respect the fact he showed some honesty. It's more of an issue of him having zero personality and repetition.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

  3. #5003
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    3. Analyze the results. This is where the scientific method breaks down in this case: in the analysis you have to correct for variables...
    There are so many of these little variables in this situation that can be accounted for that, if you are following the scientific method, you cannot simply discard because they may lead to an alternate conclusion. This is where the debate occurs, which of these factors should be accounted for in the analysis and which ones should be thrown out. This is also where many of the people who like to throw under the bus forget the scientific method and start bringing up words like "excuses" and "Bargs' apologist" when really all that is happening is that we are requesting you to perform a statistically relevant study that has taken into account all of the variables present in the experiment.
    This is not to say that the analysis that you folks have conducted is not relevant, just that it is incomplete and that you should take all of the relevant variables into account or find statistics to prove that they are not relevant. You should also remove your preconceived notions of what good defense is and find a statistical measure of what defines good, and more importantly in this case, adequate defense.

    This is also an issue with climate change, which is an analogy that has been brought up before on this forum.
    The problem with analysis and theories is that they will always be incomplete reflections of what actually occurs in reality, and are almost always based on the belief that there is an objective reality- something we are unable to prove scientifically and recent evidence in quantum physics suggest that does not exist, in effect we live in a subjective universe. This does not mean however that there is no point in trying to find a shared perspective from which to discuss our arguments.

    It is impossible to prove definitively how bargnani good or bad bargnani is. It is equally impossible to determine how good or bad he is going to be in the future. Their is an unlimited number of variables that could potentially effect a player's performance... what did they eat that day, did they have an argument with their significant other, are they constipated?

    ALL players have an infinite number of variables that can NEVER be accounted for. The most important question is whether analyst's can find key variables by which ALL players can be measured. This is what box score, and then advanced stats attempt to do. If you don't think that advanced stats are relevant fine, but it is difficult to accept their application to all players except bargnani. If anyone has a different metric that they feel reflects a players impact on the game better than advanced stats they should disseminate it to the rest of us so we can begin to use it in our own analysis.

    At some point you should ask are advanced stats MORE reflective of what happens in a game than just boxscore and eye test OWN THEIR OWN. Economics is chalk full of examples where our perception of reality is NOT reflective of statistical outcomes. An example off the top of my head is a child is more likely to die at a friends place that has a pool in the backyard than a friend's place where a parent has a gun. I think most posters here, barg supporters or otherwise, would accept this argument, and feel that advanced metrics although not perfect are MORE reflective than without them.

    Secondly, it is possible to ACCEPT advanced metrics valuation of a player's past behaviour but argue that it is not reflective of FUTURE behaviour. This is the opinion that most barg's supports adhere to as I understand their arguments. My question to them is this: Can you find a player with comparable stats to bargnani (both boxscore and advanced metrics) who drastically changed their performance at a similar stage in their career?

    I have seen lots of undermining of advanced stats analysis but I have yet to see a convincing argument that any other player has changed their game the way that barg's supporters say is possible under different circumstances. So far the burden of PROOF has been on the advanced stat guys to prove that bargnani can't change. An impossible task, the best that we can do is put forth a well reasoned argument that it is statistically unlikely.

    If you argue that it is statistically likely, then the burden of proof rests whit you. At some point if you want me to believe that changing bargnani's role or usage or position can get better results the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it CAN be done, and the best way to do that is to provide examples of past players. I have yet to see it.

    Also working against bargnani supporters is that last year there were a number of posters (multipaul in particular) who were touting how good a season barg's would have and although skeptical, their enthusiasm was contagious and I was willing to see how barg's would perform. He did not meet the expectations that his supporters set him up to achieve and it doesn't matter whether it is barg's fault, the organization's fault or a random happenstance of the universe, it UNDERMINES the credibility of the analysis, if you thought bargs would do better than he did, your predictive analysis has flaws that need to be corrected.

    In contrast, I find Amir Johnson's production predicted by his past performance based on advanced metrics to be more accurate than the predictions made by bargnani supporters. Give me an example of another player who DID what you hope/think bargnani MAY do and I might revise my perspective. Until then, I feel like advanced stats says bargs is unlikely to be significantly more efficient than he already is, and that his defense is not likely to improve. Does that mean that he has a bad contract, no (although it is average at best and probably slightly below average based on my analysis HERE). Does it mean that he can't be a useful 3rd option or a 6th man, no. Like coangelo said he is an 'asset" nothing more.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Breaking up text for grammatical/spelling mistakes and general ease of reading
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  4. #5004
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    And calling Bargnani "the enigma of all enigmas" scapegoating, really? Doesn't that MASSIVE thread we have support this?
    +1 made me chuckle. However i do trust the quotes I just still think it's meaningless. It's not usually for someone to try and say something good about a friend/colleague/former player and there's nothing wrong with him wanting to come to barg's aid. That being said, he hasn't coached bargs in 5 years so he is a bit out of touch and doesn't know the extent to which the raptors have tried to make barg's successful. He is no longer a 19 year old full of potential. He is an NBA vet
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  5. #5005
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote chunkable wrote: View Post
    Bargnani would be a better jamal crawford than jamal crawford.
    +1

    Quote KingRaptors wrote: View Post
    Well if anybody even listens to this clown, then yeah he'd be the 1st
    +1

    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    Like Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All would say , F$#% STEVE HARVEY, F$#% B.O.B, F$#% BRUNO MARS, AND F$#% BARGNANI. they gonna be at the mod club , May 15 2011, tickets at the door. SWAG
    +2!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  6. #5006
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    Shit are they? Swag.
    @jerboat

  7. #5007
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    It's funny how the randomest posts can be the most informative
    @jerboat

  8. #5008
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    lol jack armstrong hellllllo get your garbage outta here!

    why do bargs critics always jump on some media beat writers opinions every opportunity they get. BTW it's extremly funny how he tries to blame Toronto's best scorer for the team losing 60 games. I just lost whatever respect I had left for him.

    other than that i have no comment..
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 05:08 PM.

  9. #5009
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    eez_bee GREAT JOB!!!I can't really add anything more, except maybe that I, like most people believed Bargnani would be better this year...and the raptors would be better as well which didn't happen.Now most smart fans understand the flaws and what needs to be done to improve based on what we have and what needs to be added.I'm looking forward for next season EVEN if Bargnani would still be on the team.And I'd love if he becomes the player his defenders want him to be.Then all of us who critisized him will confess how wrong we were.If not...well....you know.There are going to be a lot of "Told you so" .
    Last edited by footarez; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 05:26 PM.

  10. #5010
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    At some point you should ask are advanced stats MORE reflective of what happens in a game than just boxscore and eye test OWN THEIR OWN.
    I am confident advanced stats will take on a bigger role in basketball decisions over the next decade as more research is performed to determine the value of individual players in specific contexts.

  11. #5011
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    bargs in the strongest n best player in the nba. Leave him alone!
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

  12. #5012
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    then trade for Gallinari and change the team's name to italian stallions.
    Then we bring back Bellinelli and have pasta Fridays at the ACC! Residents of Woodbridge get 50% off!!!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  13. #5013
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    Sorry, but I don't mean disrespect. Messina quit Real Madrid because his team stopped playing hard. Does he really have the patience with the likes of Andrea? Really?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  14. #5014
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Let's move this over to the ginormous everything Bargnani fan thread already. Did we hit 3,500 posts yet?
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Wrong numbers
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  15. #5015
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    It's funny how the randomest posts can be the most informative
    I do it because I know most people know they are the shit. SWAG

  16. #5016
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    Default Expecations Expectations and more Expecations

    There have been ever wavering opinions on Andrea’s expectations, the teams expectations, and expectations relative to other players on the team and even Andrea’s expectations from previous seasons.

    Here a brief objective outline from end of 2010 when bosh left up until present. For Bargnani critics would you care to explain how Bargnani has failed to meet expectations taken into account the circumstances, the talent level, the expectations of the team and more importantly his performance.



    Team Circumstances Summer leading to Pre Season:
    The franchise player left.
    No significant offensive or defensive players were brought in from the previous year
    This was a rebuilding year and a chance to give young players significant chance to develop
    Many experts including lots on this site even accurately predicted a LOSING season claiming 20-25 wins.

    Andrea’s Expectations leading into season

    Offense

    Try helping overcome offensive void left by Christopher Bosh Surpassed Expectation
    Rely less on three points shooting Above Expectation
    Improve post scoring Met Expectation
    Make teammates better Met Expectation
    Become primary scorer Above Expectation

    Defense
    Become a better man to man defender Met Expectation
    Become a better Rebounder below Expectation
    Become a Better help defender Below Expectation
    Show more desire and focus on the defensive end Below Expectation





    During Season
    Strong individual performances include
    41 point game against Knicks
    38 point game against heat
    35 point game in triple OT thriller against nets
    Great Accomplishment
    Scored 20+ in 60% of his games

    Team Accomplishments
    Growth and Development of young players Demar, Ed and company
    Big victories against teams such as Orlando, Boston and OKC

    Outcome
    Missed Playoffs
    22 Wins
    One of the worst defensive teams in the league
    Experts and critics on this site were bang on. Expectations were so low and Raptors as expected missed the playoffs and lost almost 75% of their games. Some major bargnani critics even brag about how they were so close to prediciting Toronto’s record.
    Which begs the question? If team expectations were SO LOW…
    Will the Bargnani critics care to explain why expectations of Bargnani were SO HIGH THIS SEASON?
    WAS HE SUPPOSE TO BE OUR DEFENSIVE ANCOR?
    WAS HE SUPPOSE TO BE A TOP 10 SCORER?
    WAS HE SUPPOSE TO BE ALL AROUND GOOD LIKE DWIGHT HOWARD?
    OR JUST REGGIE EVANS GOOD?
    OR A MONTA ELLIS SCORING AND JUST BOOZER REBOUNDING GOOD?
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 06:51 PM.

  17. #5017
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Defense
    Become a better man to man defender Met Expectation
    Become a better Rebounder below Expectation
    Become a Better help defender Below Expectation
    Show more desire and focus on the defensive end Below Expectation

    Will the Bargnani critics care to explain why expectations of Bargnani were SO HIGH THIS SEASON?
    I think expectations were high for two reasons

    1st) Posters on this site, specifically Multipaul constantly shouted from the mountains how GOOD bargs was going to be once he was freed from the chains of Chris Bosh. I expected him to do better because a lot of people here on this site said he would, with A LOT of conviction.

    2nd) Without a "franchise player" Barg's became the defacto franchise player and thus he was expected to "up" his game.

    In closing, I highlighted areas of his game which we both agree he under-achieved. Some of us feel like those areas where he underachieved are VERY important and he can't/won't improve on them in the future than he is not an invaluable piece.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 06:55 PM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  18. #5018
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    bargnani is gone, demar is in the bulidin!



  19. #5019
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I think expectations were high for two reasons

    1st) Posters on this site, specifically Multipaul constantly shouted from the mountains how GOOD bargs was going to be once he was freed from the chains of Chris Bosh. I expected him to do better because a lot of people here on this site said he would, with A LOT of conviction.

    2nd) Without a "franchise player" Barg's became the defacto franchise player and thus he was expected to "up" his game.

    In closing, I highlighted areas of his game which we both agree he under-achieved. Some of us feel like those areas where he underachieved are VERY important and he can't/won't improve on them in the future than he is not an invaluable piece.
    you fail to answer any important question. multipaul as I admire Bargnani's game and its not common place to hope that a player you like performs amazing. Doesn't mean we hold a gun to his head and issue an ultimatum ,, score 25 grab 14 boards or else..

    why were YOUR expecations of Andrea so high, if the team expecations were so low. Don't just base expecations on other people's wishful thinking.

  20. #5020
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    Bargnani? GET THAT GARBAGE OUTAA HERE!!!!!!!!!!

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