View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5021
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    bargnani is gone, demar is in the bulidin!


    bargnani + demar

    gasol + kobe 2.0

  2. #5022
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    you fail to answer any important question. multipaul as I admire Bargnani's game and its not common place to hope that a player you like performs amazing. Doesn't mean we hold a gun to his head and issue an ultimatum ,, score 25 grab 14 boards or else..

    why were YOUR expecations of Andrea so high, if the team expecations were so low. Don't just base expecations on other people's wishful thinking.
    bargnani will be better off in europe. The NBA is not the place for jumpshooting 7 footers who can't defend a toddler moving in slow motion.

  3. #5023
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    bargnani will be better off in europe. The NBA is not the place for jumpshooting 7 footers who can't defend a toddler moving in slow motion.
    your not answering any of my quesions i posted in the original thread,, right now your just trolling

  4. #5024
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    bargnani + demar

    gasol + kobe 2.0
    i wish... demar is more of a VC 2.0 cept he doesn't do 360 dunks.

  5. #5025
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    your not answering any of my quesions i posted in the original thread,, right now your just trolling
    yup just like what you do

  6. #5026
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    The expectations were so high because, among many reasons, he is the #1 overall pick, he was given a team and all the slack he could've hoped for, and ALL he wanted to do was score.

    When you look at guys like Derrick Rose and Blake Griffin and Dwight Howard, they do everything that is asked of them, and if they can't, they do EVERYTHING they can in order to see that their best effort was given.

    I can't tell you how many times I almost turned off the TV solely based on the fact that Andrea looked like he'd rather be ANYWHERE else in the world, then playing the game of basketball for the Raptors. He doesn't TRY. That is where the expectations lie. It's not in "get this many rebounds or else" as you put it, but more "please TRY to get this many rebounds" and he doesn't. EVER.

    And he didn't improve as a man-to-man defender either. He used to actually be good. Not this year. Find one stat that says he did.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  7. #5027
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    i wish... demar is more of a VC 2.0 cept he doesn't do 360 dunks.
    ud rather demar become carter than kobe loool

    i admit i loved vc in his primee

    but you cant argue with 5 championships and counting

  8. #5028
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    The expectations were so high because, among many reasons, he is the #1 overall pick, he was given a team and all the slack he could've hoped for, and ALL he wanted to do was score.
    Again based on previous years what made you believe that expectations were so high? Toronto just lost Bosh and his highest point total up until this year was 17 ppg.

    When you look at guys like Derrick Rose and Blake Griffin and Dwight Howard, they do everything that is asked of them, and if they can't, they do EVERYTHING they can in order to see that their best effort was given.
    Again, why are you comparing him to three of the best players in our game today? Secondly, those players have a much better supporting cast today and were given the keys from day one.

    I can't tell you how many times I almost turned off the TV solely based on the fact that Andrea looked like he'd rather be ANYWHERE else in the world, then playing the game of basketball for the Raptors. He doesn't TRY. That is where the expectations lie. It's not in "get this many rebounds or else" as you put it, but more "please TRY to get this many rebounds" and he doesn't. EVER.
    You keep bringing up intangibles like doesn’t try no effort etc.. I bring up tangible statistics like scoring 20+ in 60% of his games

    And he didn't improve as a man-to-man defender either. He used to actually be good. Not this year. Find one stat that says he did.
    To bad I didn’t track the increased number of charges he took, and the shooting percentages of the player he was guarding.

  9. #5029
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    eez_bee GREAT JOB!!!
    It's nice to be appreciated!
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  10. #5030
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Again based on previous years what made you believe that expectations were so high? Toronto just lost Bosh and his highest point total up until this year was 17 ppg.
    Again, you bring it all back to Offense. I would have been FINE if he maintained 17ppg and grabbed 8.5rbs and got 1.5bl. THAT would be improvement. Yes, granted he scored a few more points.. by shooting aloot more shots.


    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Again, why are you comparing him to three of the best players in our game today? Secondly, those players have a much better supporting cast today and were given the keys from day one.
    Those three happen to be #1 overall selections like him. Just so happens they are also 3 of the best players in the game. Fancy that.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    You keep bringing up intangibles like doesn't try no effort etc.. I bring up tangible statistics like scoring 20+ in 60% of his games
    Are you actually reading what I'm writing? This isn't about his effort on offense. Its about his effort the OTHER 50% OF THE GAME.

    I can bring up tangible statistics too, like 5.2rbs, 0.7blk and 0.5spg.


    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    To bad I didn't track the increased number of charges he took, and the shooting percentages of the player he was guarding.
    Too bad, you would have realized that there was ZERO improvement over last year.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 07:59 PM.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  11. #5031
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lol jack armstrong hellllllo get your garbage outta here!

    why do bargs critics always jump on some media beat writers opinions every opportunity they get. BTW it's extremly funny how he tries to blame Toronto's best scorer for the team losing 60 games. I just lost whatever respect I had left for him.

    other than that i have no comment..
    Probably the same reason that Bargnani fans jump on media opinions that praise Bargnani.

    And at what point did Armstrong blame Bargnani for the team losing 60 games? You've got to get over this quirk that makes you believe that criticism of Bargnani means he's being blamed for EVERYTHING. It seems to be an epidemic among Bargnani fans. They see someone criticizing his defense and try to make it that they mean that the team would be good defensively without Bargnani. If someone wants to blame Bargnani for everything, they'll say it's his fault.
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  12. #5032
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    It's nice to be appreciated!
    Let me second that. Excellent post. I really have nothing to add to that.
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  13. #5033
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Towards the end of last season.....


    Bargnani is asked how he gets beat on the boards.
    "Being lazy maybe," he says. "That's the only reason it can be. I've got the body, I've got everything to take 10 rebounds a game. It's just sometimes I get lazy."
    He needs to fix that, obviously. He needs to play with more focus.
    "Yeah," Bargnani agrees. "More focus. You said it. More focus and don't get lazy."


    http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...3/22/bargnani/

    I believe most (his supporters and not) remember this. Can anyone/he honestly address this issue again and say that he has improved in correcting the malady? Or are we confused about what "lazy" really means...in the workplace.

  14. #5034
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Again, you bring it all back to Offense. I would have been FINE if he maintained 17ppg and grabbed 8.5rbs and got 1.5bl. THAT would be improvement. Yes, granted he scored a few more points.. by shooting aloot more shots.




    Those three happen to be #1 overall selections like him. Just so happens they are also 3 of the best players in the game. Fancy that.



    Are you actually reading what I'm writing? This isn't about his effort on offense. Its about his effort the OTHER 50% OF THE GAME.

    I can bring up tangible statistics too, like 5.2rbs, 0.7blk and 0.5spg.




    Too bad, you would have realized that there was ZERO improvement over last year.



    ADD At least Multipaul was fun to talk to some of the time.
    I support a player i like ... maybe if we had something to talk about other than bargnani's defensive effort wed have something fun to talk about.

    ADD:
    I already said he underacheived on defense did you not read my initial post?
    That wasn't the point of my thread


    since you like to bring up only defense what lead you to beleive from his previous years he would imrpove to 8.5 boards?

    why can't you just accept the fact he is an above avg scorer and below avererage defender?
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 08:10 PM.

  15. #5035
    Raptors Republic Starter raptorsking's Avatar
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    2011-2012 - expectations

    - Better rebounder
    - better overall defender
    - work on conditioning ( this has been a problem)
    - become tougher stop getting intimidated
    - become a more efficient scorer
    - become more of a leader
    - stronger

  16. #5036
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    First off, I took that jab regarding Multi out of my post before you posted. Was uncalled for.
    He's on a whooole other planet. hahah

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    I support a player I like
    I have been more then supportive of Bargnani. Why can't I wish for a player I like to become an elite level contributer?


    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    what made you beleive from everything i mentioned leading up to this season that he would become a better overall player...

    since you like to bring up only defense what lead you to beleive from previous years he would imrpove to 8.5 boards?

    why can't you just accept the fact he is an above avf scorer and below avererage defender?
    He went from 3.2rpg(2007-08) to 5.3rpg(2008-09) to 6.2rpg(2009-10) to 5.2rpg(2010-11) rebounds per game. Before the 5.2rpg of this year, he was showing an improved effort and nose for the ball. It was, and is not, unthinkable for him to grab 2 more boards per game.
    But instead he goes and grabs less rebounds then he even did the previous season.
    Thats one step forward, two steps back my friend.

    As a rookie he posted more BPG in 10 less minutes per game than he did last season. Thats regression.
    When you average 1.2 and 1.4bpg in back to back years it is not ridiculous for the Fans to want to see more. Its expected.
    And instead he averages nearly a career low.


    And I thought the point of your thread was 'why were expectations so high'.
    Those expectations were far more abundant on the defensive end, because he plays the most defensive-minded position.
    Yes, he put up more points. But he was less efficient doing it.
    One of the Expectations of a great scorer is to improve efficiency, and he did not.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Apr 26th, 2011 at 08:20 PM.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  17. #5037
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    [B]Bargnani is asked how he gets beat on the boards.
    "Being lazy maybe," he says. "That's the only reason it can be. I've got the body, I've got everything to take 10 rebounds a game. It's just sometimes I get lazy."
    I like Bargnani but I think he's lying to himself if he truly believes he can average 10 rebounds a game. Given his historical 4:1 defensive to offensive board ratio, Andrea would grab 8 defensive boards a game. Eight defensive rebounds a game, that translates into a 25-28% DRR depending on his minutes, an elite defensive rebounder territory and a more than 50% improvement over his best season.

    I will be happy, and I think it would be enough for the team, if he averaged 6.8 - 7.2 rebounds a game playing alongside Amir or Davis.

  18. #5038
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    I actually never had high expectations for Bargnani. I was one of the people who argued against the expectation people had for him this season. I felt they were completely unrealistic. And it turns out I was right.

    Let's look at the report card, here:

    Offense

    Try helping overcome offensive void left by Bosh: Met expectations
    - Is anyone really surprised the guy ended up scoring 4 more points a game, especially considering he took 4 more shots a game? Really?
    Rely less on three points shooting: Met expectations
    - He took fewer threes, but took more long twos. Not a good compromise.
    Improve post scoring: Below expectations
    - He started off the season well, but it wasn't long before he started posting up less and less as he went back to what he knew- shooting jumpers.
    Make teammates better: Incomplete
    - He made them better on offense, but worse on defense.
    Become primary scorer: Met expectations
    - 21 ppg on 18 shots and with not great efficiency. Plus, there were far too many times when he simply disappeared on offense.

    Now, there was one area that he did exceed expectations with me and that was his ability to get to the line. It's still not great, but it's certainly much better than I was expecting.

    Defense
    Become a better man to man defender: Below expectation
    - I really don't understand how anyone can say that Bargnani's man-to-man defense improved. If anything it got worse. It was below average before and now it's worse.
    Become a better Rebounder: Below Expectation
    Become a Better help defender: Below Expectation
    Show more desire and focus on the defensive end: Below Expectation

    I think it's great that he improved on offense, but when you've got such glaring deficiencies, as he does on defense and on the boards, and to not improve in either of those areas is inexcusable. Take DeRozan, for instance. Two areas he needed the most work on was his ball handling and jumper and those two areas improved. Amir needed to improve on his fouls and on his jumper. Again, both of those areas improved.

    Bargnani has always been an above average offensive player, but the fact that he didn't improve at all in the areas that needed improvement the most is a testament to just how little he seems to care about that aspect of the game.
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  19. #5039
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Thanks Tim. Great post. You always do it better. haha

    PS. I found this picture on Google images and low-and-behold, it was linked from your Blog. Small inter-web. Turned out to be a rather unabashed defense of Jose Calderon. I rather enjoyed it.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  20. #5040
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I like Bargnani but I think he's lying to himself if he truly believes he can average 10 rebounds a game. Given his historical 4:1 defensive to offensive board ratio, Andrea would grab 8 defensive boards a game. Eight defensive rebounds a game, that translates into a 25-28% DRR depending on his minutes, an elite defensive rebounder territory and a more than 50% improvement over his best season.

    I will be happy, and I think it would be enough for the team, if he averaged 6.8 - 7.2 rebounds a game playing alongside Amir or Davis.
    I agree. My own personal beef with AB is his seeming lackadaisical feel/approach to general defensive play. The only time he is engaged is if he ever finds himself defensively in a post play and he has no option but to respond/defend. Help defense and rebounding requires him to move his feet and be active in the defensive zone. It is in this context that I posted my previous note. I think he is capable even in an average manner to be the player we all would like to see if he was more active rather than static in the def. zone. This is something you cant teach...you want to have to do it.

    This ties in to his own word ...."lazy". It wasnt the number of rebounds so much.

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