View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5061
    Raptors Republic Rookie KingRaptors's Avatar
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    Bargnani friking 7 feet tall, how are you a terrible rebounder I understand he's a bad help defender probably because he lacks movement, etc. but c'mon now at 7 feet tall there is possibly NO reason why he isn't averaging minimum 7 rebounds especially with the amount of minutes he receieves.

  2. #5062
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    If the Raps finally take off the "kid gloves" with Bargnani they're hypocrites because Sam Mitchell tried to handle Bargnani that way and they swiftly fired him. I'd love to hear Mitchell talk about this being several years removed from it now.
    Last edited by Brandon; Wed Apr 27th, 2011 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #5063
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    Quote KingRaptors wrote: View Post
    Bargnani friking 7 feet tall, how are you a terrible rebounder I understand he's a bad help defender probably because he lacks movement, etc. but c'mon now at 7 feet tall there is possibly NO reason why he isn't averaging minimum 7 rebounds especially with the amount of minutes he receieves.
    That is what I've been trying to say all year. What a joke! Thank you for posting this.

  4. #5064
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Draft Kanter or Val and Trade him. This is the last time I'm commenting on this thread till draft day.
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  5. #5065
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    If the Raps finally take off the "kid gloves" with Bargnani they're hypocrites because Sam Mitchell tried to handle Bargnani that way and they swiftly fired him. I'd love to hear Mitchell talk about this being several years removed from it now.
    I wouldn't exactly call them hypocrites. It simply means that they may feel they were mistaken, or that at the time it was the right move, but now things have changed. Plus, Mitchell was JUST fired because of how he handled Bargnani. It was certainly a main reason, but not the only one. Besides, no one can dispute that Bargnani was better under Triano than Mitchell.
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  6. #5066
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Bargnani is a good player but he doesnt have the desire to be one of the greats. players like demar, amir, and ed and bayless dedicate themselves to the game and dont stop traiing and pacticing until they are the best.

  7. #5067
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    I personally believe bargnani can be an effective 6th man off the bench with an ability to be a instant scorer. Its just whether we feel 10 million a season is warranted for your 1st guy off the bench especially in the NBA that we are heading into with reference to the new CBA. If the choice is to trade him now or later, you trade him NOW. Assuming the lottery balls put us in third position in the draft maybe using Andrea in a trade with possibly Minnesota, swap picks and give us Darko, we draft Kyrie. This upgrades us at pg and brings a more defensive minded centre. If my memory serves me correctly darko is a lefty. Darko and Eddy D would be a pretty good scrappy, defensive frontline for our team, with 2 dynamic gaurds (kyrie and DD).

    Just my random thoughts.

  8. #5068
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote K06 wrote: View Post
    I personally believe bargnani can be an effective 6th man off the bench with an ability to be a instant scorer. Its just whether we feel 10 million a season is warranted for your 1st guy off the bench especially in the NBA that we are heading into with reference to the new CBA. If the choice is to trade him now or later, you trade him NOW. Assuming the lottery balls put us in third position in the draft maybe using Andrea in a trade with possibly Minnesota, swap picks and give us Darko, we draft Kyrie. This upgrades us at pg and brings a more defensive minded centre. If my memory serves me correctly darko is a lefty. Darko and Eddy D would be a pretty good scrappy, defensive frontline for our team, with 2 dynamic gaurds (kyrie and DD).

    Just my random thoughts.
    Darco's a bitch... harsh words but too true. i cant remember who they were playing but another center was posting up darko and he literally gave up it was just sad. he just stepped back and let the guy dunk it. tried finding it on youtube but itsa no go. not a chance were taking a loser like darko, dudes pathetic

  9. #5069
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't exactly call them hypocrites. It simply means that they may feel they were mistaken, or that at the time it was the right move, but now things have changed. Plus, Mitchell was JUST fired because of how he handled Bargnani. It was certainly a main reason, but not the only one. Besides, no one can dispute that Bargnani was better under Triano than Mitchell.
    He was given more playing time. That's about it. His rookie year (advanced) stats are virtually the same as every year since. The only thing he's learned under Triano is he can do whatever he wants and there are no consequences.

  10. #5070
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    maybe your just in deniall when you look at that scoring leaderboard and see bargnani ahead of players like bosh
    Like few guys wrote among scoring leaders were Corey,Monta,Marcus and so what?In the end of the season wins is what counts not ppg with lousy effectiveness ...I don't care about Bosh.This year he has nothing to do with our team.Bosh is history-get over him.By the way so is Vince and Hedo.I hate it when crowd boos those guys when they play against the raptors...very stupid move.I even think sometimes those boos make Carter want to play better and eventually beat us.Has happened in the overtime game 2 years ago with buzzer-beater 3 and buzzer beater dunk(sad face).I'm not saying you are one of those I meant that in general.You've probably laid your arguments many times about Bargnani but except his scoring I haven't seen anything that can logically convince me that he is lazy underachiever who doesn't care much about wining games for us.If I was a season ticket holder I'd be VERY disgusted to watch him NOT try on the defensive end.If Bargnani played average defense and was more effective on offense the Raptors could have been a lot better this season and the only excuse would have been the injuries.

  11. #5071
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't exactly call them hypocrites. It simply means that they may feel they were mistaken, or that at the time it was the right move, but now things have changed. Plus, Mitchell was JUST fired because of how he handled Bargnani. It was certainly a main reason, but not the only one. Besides, no one can dispute that Bargnani was better under Triano than Mitchell.
    Mitchell wasn't great coach but he was defensive coach.That is what I liked about him.He was good defensive player and was good defensive coach.Most importantly the Raptors were better with him.Bargnani is better under Triano-yes but the raptors aren't.Bargnani would be even better under D'antoni but that still wouldn't make the team better.

  12. #5072
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Like few guys wrote among scoring leaders were Corey,Monta,Marcus and so what?In the end of the season wins is what counts not ppg with lousy effectiveness ...I don't care about Bosh.This year he has nothing to do with our team.Bosh is history-get over him.By the way so is Vince and Hedo.I hate it when crowd boos those guys when they play against the raptors...very stupid move.I even think sometimes those boos make Carter want to play better and eventually beat us.Has happened in the overtime game 2 years ago with buzzer-beater 3 and buzzer beater dunk(sad face).I'm not saying you are one of those I meant that in general.You've probably laid your arguments many times about Bargnani but except his scoring I haven't seen anything that can logically convince me that he is lazy underachiever who doesn't care much about wining games for us.If I was a season ticket holder I'd be VERY disgusted to watch him NOT try on the defensive end.If Bargnani played average defense and was more effective on offense the Raptors could have been a lot better this season and the only excuse would have been the injuries.

    He' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...

    other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.

  13. #5073
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    He was given more playing time. That's about it. His rookie year (advanced) stats are virtually the same as every year since. The only thing he's learned under Triano is he can do whatever he wants and there are no consequences.
    Bargnani's play did improve after Triano took over, but I do agree that a lot of that was simply due to him playing more. I'm not saying it was the best thing, but if nothing else, Bargnani's value increased.
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  14. #5074
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    He' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...

    other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.
    Have you not read the last few pages? There's been PLENTY of evidence to suggest moving him would improve the team. He's one of the worst rebounding big men in the league (you've seen the stats). He's also one of the worst defending big men in the league (again, we've shown you plenty of advanced stats on this). And he actually has a negative impact on the team (yes, we've also shown you stats on this).

    And really, no argument will convince you that the Raptors should trade Bargnani because you wont look at evidence objectively.

    The ONLY argument you've come up with is that he was a top 15 scorer, but since you apparently missed it the dozen or so other times I have disputed the importance of this, I'll repost my last one:

    You're putting WAY, WAY, WAY too much emphasis on scoring. Bargnani scored 21 ppg because he was on a crappy team without a lot of other scoring options. You think Bosh couldn't have scored more if he wasn't on Miami? You think Paul Pierce or Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett couldn't have scored more if they were given more shots on a bad team? Or Carlos Boozer or Joe Johnson or Jamaal Crawford or Josh Smith or Chauncey Billups or Al Harrington or Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum or Vince Carter or Aaron Brooks or Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker or Jason Terry or Caron Butler or Shawn Marion or David West or Chris Paul or Carl Landry or Richard Jefferson or more than a dozen other guys in the league who could easily score 20 or more ppg if they were given as many shots as Bargnani took. When good players are on good teams they usually subjugate their scoring for the betterment of the team and do other things. The one dimensional players usually end up either player a smaller role or no role at all.
    ...
    You have to give up this "but he was top 15 scoring" argument because it really isn't much of an argument. Corey Maggette has been in the top 15 in scoring several times, but because that's the only thing he does well, he's not going to help your team win, much. Ask Milwaukee. Same goes for Monta Ellis and GOlden State. Or even Marcus Thornton and Sacramento. On New Orleans, for a coach that demanded defense, he languished on the bench. On a bad team where he could take 17 shots a game he was able to score 21 ppg. Sound familiar?
    Marcus Thornton is the perfect argument against Bargnani. Thornton is a terrific scorer. I don't think anyone can doubt that. Whenever he's gotten minutes he's averaged at least 20 ppg. The problem is that he's a horrible defender. So horrible, in fact, that Monty Williams played Belinelli ahead of him even thought Belinelli isn't the scorer that Thornton is. You know why? Because Belinelli, despite his flaws, does play defense and does other things to help his team.

    Then he gets traded to Sacramento, another bad team, and he starts scoring again.

    Two things to take note here. The first is that Monty Williams is a disciple of Gregg Popovich, which backs up my theory that if Bargnani was traded to the Spurs (which probably wouldn't happen) he'd end up being stapled to the bench because of his defensive "issues".

    The second thing is that Marcus Thornton rebounded at a slightly higher rate than Bargnani did this year. Keep in mind that Thornton is 6'4.

    Care to respond to any of that?
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  15. #5075
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're putting WAY, WAY, WAY too much emphasis on scoring. Bargnani scored 21 ppg because he was on a crappy team without a lot of other scoring options. You think Bosh couldn't have scored more if he wasn't on Miami? You think Paul Pierce or Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett couldn't have scored more if they were given more shots on a bad team? Or Carlos Boozer or Joe Johnson or Jamaal Crawford or Josh Smith or Chauncey Billups or Al Harrington or Lamar Odom or Andrew Bynum or Vince Carter or Aaron Brooks or Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker or Jason Terry or Caron Butler or Shawn Marion or David West or Chris Paul or Carl Landry or Richard Jefferson or more than a dozen other guys in the league who could easily score 20 or more ppg if they were given as many shots as Bargnani took. When good players are on good teams they usually subjugate their scoring for the betterment of the team and do other things. The one dimensional players usually end up either player a smaller role or no role at all.
    lolll bargnani already proved to be a valuable role player in rookie year i dont understand what your trying to accomplish by naming all those players who can adpat to playing on team with lots of talent around them.

    It also seems you're trying to explain away the criticism of Bargnani by saying our expectations of him are simply too high. Again, you're not getting it. You think adequate defense and rebounding is expecting too much? I'm pretty sure most of us expect that from ANY big man. I know I do. Most of us would love to see him score less, as long as his defense and rebounding improved. If he scored 15 ppg with even average defense and rebounding I'd cease my criticism.
    well i actualyl like the fact that he scorers more and scores in a variety of different ways .. even if expanding all that enery on offense takes away a bit of energy from the defensve end its a trade off im willing to accept. expecally this year when he was expcted to carry the offensive load.


    You think our expectations are too high if we believe you can't win with a big man who is a very poor rebounder and defender? That's not expectations. That's history and experience.
    history and experience have taught me one thing. every situation is different.

    You have to give up this "but he was top 15 scoring" argument because it really isn't much of an argument. Corey Maggette has been in the top 15 in scoring several times, but because that's the only thing he does well, he's not going to help your team win, much. Ask Milwaukee. Same goes for Monta Ellis and GOlden State. Or even Marcus Thornton and Sacramento. On New Orleans, for a coach that demanded defense, he languished on the bench. On a bad team where he could take 17 shots a game he was able to score 21 ppg. Sound familiar?
    your talking about peremiter players here in case you didnt notice bargani is a big man, off the top of my head only 3 bigs avereaged more points that bargnani (dirk aldridge and howard) pretty good company id say.

  16. #5076
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lolll bargnani already proved to be a valuable role player in rookie year i dont understand what your trying to accomplish by naming all those players who can adpat to playing on team with lots of talent around them.



    well i actualyl like the fact that he scorers more and scores in a variety of different ways .. even if expanding all that enery on offense takes away a bit of energy from the defensve end its a trade off im willing to accept. expecally this year when he was expcted to carry the offensive load.




    history and experience have taught me one thing. every situation is different.



    your talking about peremiter players here in case you didnt notice bargani is a big man,
    off the top of my head only 3 bigs avereaged more points that bargnani (dirk aldridge and howard) pretty good company id say.
    yea bargnani is practically a sf

  17. #5077
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote raptorsking wrote: View Post
    yea bargnani is practically a sf
    lol whatever position you want to label him .. i would say C,Pf,SF hes interchangable in all those position... on offense end which makes him an inside and outside threat..

    lol you know the saying teams playin inside out... bargnani can do both for you lool

  18. #5078
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lol whatever position you want to label him .. i would say C,Pf,SF hes interchangable in all those position... on offense end which makes him an inside and outside threat..

    lol you know the saying teams playin inside out... bargnani can do both for you lool
    if only he wasn't so inept at everything else

  19. #5079
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lolll bargnani already proved to be a valuable role player in rookie year i dont understand what your trying to accomplish by naming all those players who can adpat to playing on team with lots of talent around them.
    Bargnani proved he can play 25 minutes per game off the bench of a mediocre team that can't get out the first round. I'll give you that.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    well i actualyl like the fact that he scorers more and scores in a variety of different ways .. even if expanding all that enery on offense takes away a bit of energy from the defensve end its a trade off im willing to accept. expecally this year when he was expcted to carry the offensive load.
    It's great that YOU'RE willing to accept the tradeoff of bad defense for scoring, but if you really want to win, that's probably not a good idea. And have you ever thought that maybe Bargnani wouldn't have to score so much if he actually played defense? Is his 21 ppg and bad defense any more valuable than a player who scores 17 ppg but actually plays some defense? You don't seem to get the correlation, here. The more you let the other team score the more your team has to score. You could surround Bargnani with great defensive players, but he'd still have a negative impact at the defensive end.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    history and experience have taught me one thing. every situation is different.
    History and experience has shown me that while every situation is different, there are certain indisputable truths. And one of them is that, in basketball, you need your big men to defend and rebound if you want a chance to win a Championship. If you'd care to dispute that, I'd love to read your argument.

    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    your talking about peremiter players here in case you didnt notice bargani is a big man, off the top of my head only 3 bigs avereaged more points that bargnani (dirk aldridge and howard) pretty good company id say.
    Bargnani IS a perimeter player. You do realize that Marcus Thornton actually scored more of his points in the paint this past year than Bargnani did, don't you?
    http://www.82games.com/1011/10SAC4.HTM
    http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM

    And what difference does it make WHO scores the points? We're not talking about a post player who shots a high percentage and manufactures tons of points at the line. Thornton was actually a more efficient scorer than Bargnani was.

    Besides, it's far more important for your big man to be a good defender than your perimeter players. You can get away with a poor perimeter defender far easier than you can get away with a poor interior defender. You just have to look at all the NBA Champions to see that.
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  20. #5080
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    He' still on our team.... so its actually your job to prove to me why they should trade him...

    other than your claims that he gives no effort on defense which is impossible to prove I see nothing in your arguments that convince me he is the reason the raptors suck.
    am...what he said

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