View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

Voters
128. You may not vote on this poll
  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
Page 255 of 528 FirstFirst ... 155 205 245 253 254 255 256 257 265 305 355 ... LastLast
Results 5,081 to 5,100 of 10549

Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5081
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Burlington Ontario
    Posts
    749
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is a good player but he doesnt have the desire to be one of the greats. players like demar, amir, and ed and bayless dedicate themselves to the game and dont stop traiing and pacticing until they are the best.
    Demar, Amir, Ed and bayless will become great players and 2 of them will be all stars.

  2. #5082
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Jamal Crawford = Andrea Bargnani?

    Ive seen posts here comparing Jamal Crawford to Andrea Bargnani, both with no desire to defend or rebound (in Jamal's case, pass the ball) but both with good offensive games.

    With the Hawks moving to the second round and Jamal undoubtedly a big contributor to this, can the Raps make use of Bargnani the way the Hawks used Crawford? If Bargnani is paired with a defensive center, will it work the same way as Crawford paired with a defensive 3 like Josh Smith?

    Just want to make it clear that im not a Bargnani lover and im not making a case for Bargnani to stay with the Raps, but if he does indeed stay, can him and a defensive center make things work for the Raps as evidenced by the success of the Hawks with Jamal on their team?

  3. #5083
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    659
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    For this analogy to be more accurate, you'd have to have Bargnani play as the 6th man. So, either with Bargnani or without him, the team still is in big need of a starting-calibre defensive 5.

    You'd also need a sniper on the wing for kick-outs, and a high quality defender at the 1 to ensure Bargnani is basically never asked to play help D.

    It definitely could work, but it would be so contingent upon who else the Raptors get in the offseason that it would be extremely difficult to forecast.

  4. #5084
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    34
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    what's the point of having an awesome 6th man bargs when every minute he's on the court we're still gonna be stuck with a weak ass rebounding/defending bargs. whether he's scoring from the starting line-up or scoring from the bench, he's still a liability out on the court.

    also, how will a defensive center help bargs when the defensive center is gonna be either giving up his own assignment or fouling out from trying to cover bargs man. bargs covering power forwards, seriously?

  5. #5085
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    30
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think comparing the two are difficult seeing as how Crawford's help defenders are Smith, Horford and Pachulia, while Bargnani IS the help defense. Crawford's defense is no where near as bad as Barganani, or so it seems, because Crawford has help if he messes up, while Bargnani is the one providing the help.
    So if they're both equally as bad on defense, Bargnani would still be the bigger liability based on position.

  6. #5086
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ya, unfortunately the fact that he's a big man makes things a little different. Crawford's lack of defense doesn't hurt you as much because he's defending the wing. Besides, how far can you go with a guy like Crawford playing a big role? I don't know, but the Hawks have never been past the second round.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  7. #5087
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    659
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think in this scenario, Bargs would be covering the offensively weaker of the 2 opposing bigs, rather than simply being locked into always defending the 4 (assuming of course the as-yet-unknown-and-unobtained "defensive 5" is capable enough of defending opposing 4s).

  8. #5088
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    30
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Unless he's guarding Jason Collins every night, I'd still assume he'd get toasted...
    Don't mean to be a prick, just saying

  9. #5089
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    659
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't know, but the Hawks have never been past the second round.
    I think that is significantly due to the failure of Joe Johnson to step it up. It's hard (and wrong) to blame a 6th man for a team not advancing far in the playoffs. He is, not matter how good and valuable, still a 6th man.

    Despite that, given that the Hawks are so dependent upon a SG off the bench shows how much of a ridiculous disaster it was for the Hawks to give so much god damned money to Joe Johnson - their starting SG and ostensible best player. Just ridiculous.

  10. #5090
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    I think in this scenario, Bargs would be covering the offensively weaker of the 2 opposing bigs, rather than simply being locked into always defending the 4 (assuming of course the as-yet-unknown-and-unobtained "defensive 5" is capable enough of defending opposing 4s).
    Bargnani defended the offensively weaker big all year long. Not much help there.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  11. #5091
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    I think that is significantly due to the failure of Joe Johnson to step it up. It's hard (and wrong) to blame a 6th man for a team not advancing far in the playoffs. He is, not matter how good and valuable, still a 6th man.

    Despite that, given that the Hawks are so dependent upon a SG off the bench shows how much of a ridiculous disaster it was for the Hawks to give so much god damned money to Joe Johnson - their starting SG and ostensible best player. Just ridiculous.
    I think there are a lot of reasons the Hawks haven't made it past the second round. I didn't mean to blame it on Crawford, but I think as a team gets deeper in the playoffs, guys like Crawford become more of a liability as teams exploit weaknesses in the defense. The better the team the better they exploit them.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  12. #5092
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    in a van down by the river
    Posts
    2,799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think there are a lot of reasons the Hawks haven't made it past the second round. I didn't mean to blame it on Crawford, but I think as a team gets deeper in the playoffs, guys like Crawford become more of a liability as teams exploit weaknesses in the defense. The better the team the better they exploit them.
    agreed. i like crawford, but his defense is porous at best. no matter how good your bigs are, if they're constantly having to deal with smaller, faster, more agile players getting past your backcourt, your interior d is going to implode.

  13. #5093
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colborne, ON
    Posts
    242
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    To have a high-paid, high-scoring gunner off the bench like Crawford or Terry, you have to have a very good, solid starting five. Toronto is nowhere near that. Bargs could be a gunner off the bench, but not with this team. They are definitely a few years away from that point, so he is either a starter or he's gone.

  14. #5094
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,384
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think this thread brings up a few good points:

    1/ If you keep Bargs as a starter you need to surround him with players that hide his defensive woes.

    2/ If you move him to the bench you would need a solid defensive starting five to fully take advantage of his talents - like how JET and Crawford are supported.

    Am I right in saying then if they decide to keep Bargs the whole team needs to be rebuilt with to cover for his weaknesses?

  15. #5095
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    5,635
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Sixth men are typically not big men. I suppose because the role is typically that of a hustle-type, quick offense, create your own shot and the occasional getyourfacedirty type getting the odd rebound. I dont see these as attributes of Bargs (except for the quick offense possibly). Crawford though has them mostly. I would also say that this role is more defined on the good-very good teams who will go on to 50 win type seasons. In other words for teams whose rosters are pretty much set and defined. This is of course a major deficiency of the Raptors. The idea of having a "defined" 6th man when 3 of the 5 starting group is not yet set seems to me as at least getting ahead of ourselves...no?

    And we are not even sure about those great intangibles all good 6th men have...embrace of the role, no time need for getting into the shooting groove and an assassin mentality. Do we see this in Bargnani? I believe that Crawford took quite awhile before accepting that role. He always thought himself as a starter. Until this year Ginobli was the primo example.

  16. #5096
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,830
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I honestly think it wouldnt work either.

    Based on the games ive seen, Bargnani is not an instant offense guy. He's a good scorer, but he doesnt give you points quickly, like Crawford or Barbosa. I noticed that he usually misses his first 2 or 3 shots then gets into a rythm, or gets his 1st in and misses the next 2 or 3....If Bargnani would come off the bench, he would need to be a spark, but i dont see that.

    Not necessarily he'd be the first man off the bench, i think they just use 6th man as a figure of speech, not literally. Crawford is not always the 1st man off the bench, but he usually is the one, off the bench, that stays the longest on the floor.

    i think there's actually a good mixture of SFs and bigs that usually come off the bench. Its just logical because SFs are more often the not the more active players and get tired easily, and the bigs, they just get tired easily.

    I really cant think of a way that Bargnani can help the Raps with their current predicament, not anymore.

  17. #5097
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The first player off the bench for the Raptors was usually a big (Davis or Amir, depending on who was starting) and there have been plenty of great 6th men who were bigs, including Lamar Odom, Kevin McHale, Antawn Jamison, Cliff Robinson, Roy Tarpley, Bill Walton, all who won the 6th Man award. I think the best attribute of a 6th man is that he can come in and play multiple positions, which Bargnani can do. I do agree, though, that he's probably not suited to the role. He's always struggled when asked to come off the bench and is not the type of scorer that usually does well off the bench. He's not an instant offense guy but more a rhythm shooter.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  18. #5098
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    659
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Am I right in saying then if they decide to keep Bargs the whole team needs to be rebuilt with to cover for his weaknesses?
    Yes and no. Yes in that there would need to be a build to cover for his weaknesses, but no in the sense that what's required to cover Bargs' weakness is what you should be looking for in the first place when trying to rebuild: a defensively capable 5 who is proficient at rebounding, and a PG that can spread the floor and keep is man out of the paint.

  19. #5099
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Richmond Hill, ON
    Posts
    1,979
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The comparison made is based on their knack for scoring but not much else. In Crawford's case, he's defending the wing and will always have the luxury of help defense that comes from Josh Smith or Al Horford. As a last line of defense, Andrea should be the anchor. If he fails, who helps him? Besides, the position and scoring demands from those positions make a world of a difference as far as these two players are concerned. As a wing player in a guard-oriented league, there's more demand for Jamal to score first and pass the ball next. For AB, the demand is for him to box out his man, rebound and provide help defense. If his scoring average next year takes a dip but his rebounding and defense improves, very few will be bitching about him next year.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  20. #5100
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Bargnani's more J.R. Smith than Crawford, imo. Regardless, both players are much better defenders than Bargnani is...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •