View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5161
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    Quote big_chris wrote: View Post
    Is everybody mad we didn't get another year of the Bosh / Bargnani frontline? That was really going places.
    Weeeeellll, it was certainly better than the Bargnani / Johnson frontline. But naw man, it's best he's gone.
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    Quote Mr.Grinch wrote: View Post
    Bargs is better than every center except howard.
    I can't help but notice that you always throw one line comments like this out and then never respond after that.

    That said, you are drunk if you think that. Noah, Horford, Bogut and Marc Gasol were head and shoulders better than Bargnani, and Lopez, Gortat, Chandler, Okafor, Bynum, Perkins, Hibbert, Lopez and Kaman were arguably better. And I'm probably missing one or two more.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Bosh is averaging 6.1 FTA per game. And that should be expected since he's 6'11 and should be playing on the low block. Bargnani is avg 5.3, just one attempt below Bosh and we all think Bargnani is crap. I know 18-8 is nothing to sneeze at but for a guy who was a "franchise" player a year before, if he was really that good, he should still be averaging the same numbers as the year before. But he's not. 2 other players on the same team are better than him. Thats why he's a role player now. And i believe he's always been a role player, but he was just making monster numbers because nobody else on the raps team could do it.

    im not upset with him leaving, im upset with him as a person.

    well, you just proved that he actually cant carry a team. with those win numbers, he indeed cant carry a team. and so does kobe. but the difference is, you put kobe with other superstars and he still dominates. you put bosh with other superstars, he's a role player. lebron dominated in cleveland, and you put him with wade he still dominated. wade dominated with shaq in miami, not with lebron, he still dominates games.

    and about salaries, if you were the raptors, would you pay a guy 116 million to average 18-8 a night? i guess you would say that if he was with the raps, you pay him 16mil and he's avg 20-10. so you get another superstar in and he becomes a role player. he's not worth his salary anymore.
    Well, first of all, Bosh is averaging more free throws on 5 FEWER SHOTS PER GAME!!! And as the third option. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game and is the first option.

    As for Bosh the person, I really have no opinion on him. I don't try and get caught up in whether I like or dislike a player personally. He never betrayed me because I was never all that invested in him in the first place. He was a member of my favourite team, but nothing beyond that. I certainly think he could have handled his leaving better, but I'm not going to pretend I know what he was thinking and I think it's ridiculous to pretend you know. I think he gave the Raptors 6 years and they failed to bring enough talent to get the team past the first round. I don't really blame him for wanting to leave, quite frankly.
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    Raptors Republic Starter knickz's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i'm done with hating bosh for how he left, and the douchebag he was... the past is the past.. leave it there

    he still looks like vultureman from the thundercats..

    and i LOATHE the Mutants of Plundarr with a passion.

    so F$%& chris bosh
    glad he left...the team is in geat shape
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, first of all, Bosh is averaging more free throws on 5 FEWER SHOTS PER GAME!!! And as the third option. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game and is the first option.

    As for Bosh the person, I really have no opinion on him. I don't try and get caught up in whether I like or dislike a player personally. He never betrayed me because I was never all that invested in him in the first place. He was a member of my favourite team, but nothing beyond that. I certainly think he could have handled his leaving better, but I'm not going to pretend I know what he was thinking and I think it's ridiculous to pretend you know. I think he gave the Raptors 6 years and they failed to bring enough talent to get the team past the first round. I don't really blame him for wanting to leave, quite frankly.
    Tim it's a lot more fun to dislike players in sports personally!
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im not afraid to admit i genuinely hate the guy. I know that its been played over and over again but the way he played Toronto after the all star break last season still irks me to this day. And i hate Lebron too for what he did to cleveland, for the same reasons. I dont know why people still believe to this day that they decided at the last minute about signing with Miami, when the clues are now coming out slowly piece by piece. Them declaring that "boston was the reason for us joining forces" clearly indicates that they discussed playing together way before the offseason. or maybe they did call each other, in a three-way conference at 11:55 on June 30 and said to each other, hey its the last minute, we should decide now, lets all play for miami because of boston. thats a load of crap to me.

    anyways, you failed to mention that while he was getting all these recognitions, the raptors only managed to make the playoffs twice. and while he was getting all these recognitions, no other superstar was on the raptors team. there were no legit scorers playing alongside him. he was averaging 17 shots a game, and that doesnt even count how many touches he gets in a game. so for him to be the focal point of the offense in every game, i think that was what was expected of him, and he delivered, i give him that, but he is a glorified role player because when carter was still with the team, he was basically playing as a role player and its more evident now playing alongside james and wade.
    My thoughts exactly.
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    Oh man, where do I even begin.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Bosh is averaging 6.1 FTA per game. And that should be expected since he's 6'11 and should be playing on the low block. Bargnani is avg 5.3, just one attempt below Bosh and we all think Bargnani is crap.
    You can see the fallacy of this statement by the fact that only four post players are ahead of him in this stat, none of whom play behind two superstars, but I guess it makes sense to expect something of all 6'11 post players that only 5-6 of them are able to do. Also, Bargnani accomplishes his 5'3 FTA per game by being the #1 option on the team, not as #3. And I don't know what Bargnani being "crap" has to do with Bosh; he's "crap" for different reasons.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I know 18-8 is nothing to sneeze at but for a guy who was a "franchise" player a year before, if he was really that good, he should still be averaging the same numbers as the year before.
    LOL. Wade is averaging 1.1 points and half a free throw less than the year before. James is averaging 3 points and 1.8 FTAs less than the year before. Bosh is averaging 5.3 points and 2.3 FTAs less than the year before. I guess James just isn't that good (sarcasm). Also applying your logic to the Celtics, none of Allen, Pierce or Garnett are that good, as all 3 of them scored an average of 6 fewer points after joining up. You do realize that there are only a certain number of touches available right? As it is, each game only has the 3 of them taking shots, with the rest of the team doing very little. The only way all 3 of them maintain their numbers from last year is if nobody else on the team takes a single shot.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    2 other players on the same team are better than him. Thats why he's a role player now. And i believe he's always been a role player, but he was just making monster numbers because nobody else on the raps team could do it.
    This, quite possibly, is one of the most inane comments I've read. The first bit is only relevant if someone was trying to argue Bosh being better than James and Wade, or at least a top 5 player in the league, and I don't think anyone is trying to make that point. The second bit... by your logic, if Rose, Bryant and Amar'e joined forces, it would mean Amar'e is nothing more than a role player. As for the last statement, I find it amusing that on one hand you're saying he wasn't doing anything special, and on the other, that nobody else on our team was able to do what he did.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    well, you just proved that he actually cant carry a team. with those win numbers, he indeed cant carry a team. and so does kobe. but the difference is, you put kobe with other superstars and he still dominates. you put bosh with other superstars, he's a role player. lebron dominated in cleveland, and you put him with wade he still dominated. wade dominated with shaq in miami, not with lebron, he still dominates games.
    Love your reasoning. So by showing that nobody except maybe Lebron can carry a team, not even Wade or Kobe, it means Bosh sucks because he can't either?. And again, what is with your fascination with comparing Bosh to top 5 talents like Kobe, Lebron and Wade? Just because someone is in the tier after the top 5 doesn't mean they are only role players. You, sir, have a very warped view that isn't supported by anything, much less the NBA.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    and about salaries, if you were the raptors, would you pay a guy 116 million to average 18-8 a night? i guess you would say that if he was with the raps, you pay him 16mil and he's avg 20-10. so you get another superstar in and he becomes a role player. he's not worth his salary anymore.
    See, here's the thing about Raptors' fans like you that I've noticed. On one hand, you cry about the lack of talent on the team, and then when offered the possibility of keeping that talent, you cry that it's too expensive. Well, unfortunately, players are going to cost you what the market will bear, and a team that constantly dumps good players because they think the market price is unrealistic/undeserving/unfair, etc., is never going to have any, because none of the other teams are going to care that we think it's too much. Look at the Lakers, they have 3 players getting paid $14 mil, $18 mil and $25 mil. The Spurs are paying 3 players $12 mil, $14 mil and $19 mil. Same for the Magic, the Hawks (when Horford's rookie scale contract ends), the Knicks, etc. The fact is, once you're over the cap, and we always have been, it doesn't matter whether you're paying Bosh $16 mil or $14 mil or $18 mil. I think this point was clearly illustrated when Bosh walked with essentially nothing in return, and we STILL had no money to sign anyone with.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    im not upset with him leaving, im upset with him as a person.
    I hear this a lot. Morgan Freeman is dating is grand-daughter, which is certainly terrible, but are you upset about it so much you seek every avenue to debase him to feel better? I really think you're only upset because he left, but see what happens when you/I assume to read someone's mind? Yes, Bosh had a PR nightmare over the summer, but oh effing well. I'm pretty sure I'd have a problem with like half the people in the world if they were given a megaphone and a soapbox to stand on. Instead of worrying about people who suck, I'd rather focus on all the players I respect, like Alvin Williams and Roy Halladay. Life is too short to be angry over speculation about what someone was truly thinking.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Fri May 13th, 2011 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, first of all, Bosh is averaging more free throws on 5 FEWER SHOTS PER GAME!!! And as the third option. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game and is the first option.

    As for Bosh the person, I really have no opinion on him. I don't try and get caught up in whether I like or dislike a player personally. He never betrayed me because I was never all that invested in him in the first place. He was a member of my favourite team, but nothing beyond that. I certainly think he could have handled his leaving better, but I'm not going to pretend I know what he was thinking and I think it's ridiculous to pretend you know. I think he gave the Raptors 6 years and they failed to bring enough talent to get the team past the first round. I don't really blame him for wanting to leave, quite frankly.
    Seven years unless you are discounting his last season or taking into account his injury time. =)

    Man, I don't think I've spent more than 5 years in any one location since I was a teen. When you think of it in that sense, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to leave just to try something new out.

    And for the bolded part, but Timmy, there were CLUES and I pieced them all together and it allowed me to read his mind. Before anyone disputes the efficacy of this method, think back to your days in high school, when Bobby looked at Sue and Sue wouldn't look back, and then when Chris asked Bobby what he thought of Sue, Bobby said "she's cute." They were definitely doing the dirty over the weekend! Oh wait...

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, first of all, Bosh is averaging more free throws on 5 FEWER SHOTS PER GAME!!! And as the third option. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game and is the first option.

    As for Bosh the person, I really have no opinion on him. I don't try and get caught up in whether I like or dislike a player personally. He never betrayed me because I was never all that invested in him in the first place. He was a member of my favourite team, but nothing beyond that. I certainly think he could have handled his leaving better, but I'm not going to pretend I know what he was thinking and I think it's ridiculous to pretend you know. I think he gave the Raptors 6 years and they failed to bring enough talent to get the team past the first round. I don't really blame him for wanting to leave, quite frankly.
    well, it wasnt the FGA that was mentioned, it was the FTA. Bosh has more chances of playing the inside and getting fouled because Wade and James are covering the perimeter. Technically, he should be playing the inside a lot more because now with Miami, they are supposed to be using him as a post player. We all know Bargnani is more of a perimeter player than an inside player so you cant really compare the two based on shot selection or shot attempts.

    Well, thats you. I personally despise him. We dont all have to have the same feelings towards everybody, right? I really dont have to pretend that i know what he was thinking, he pretty much says it everytime he gets interviewed. Its pretty much putting two and two together. I guess its just up to the person how to interpret it. I personally thought he never intended to re-sign with Toronto. That was he was thinking, and all the stuff that him, wade and lbj have been saying since the season started pretty much supports this. if you dont want to assume that this was what he was thinking, then thats you. I dont feel ridiculous to say that i know he really didnt intend to sign with Toronto, otherwise, he'd be in a raps uniform right now, dont you think?

    i dont dispute the fact that he gave his best for the raptors during his time here, and pretty much everybody knows the raps didnt get enough talent with him to get this team somewhere. what im saying is he wont have the same recognitions he got if another superstar was on this team with him, as evident with his current performance with his current team.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont feel ridiculous to say that i know he really didnt intend to sign with Toronto, otherwise, he'd be in a raps uniform right now, dont you think?
    Three options:

    1. He intended to leave the Raptors.

    2. He intended to re-sign with the Raptors.

    3. He kept his options open.

    You make it sound like #1 and #2 are the only options available. Bosh no longer being in a Toronto uniform does nothing to suggest #3 isn't possible or true. Just because he didn't choose you doesn't mean he didn't keep his options open. Amusingly, it's because he kept his options open until his final decision, thereby not giving sufficient advance warning, that everyone is so mad. S M H (why is this censored?).

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    You can see the fallacy of this statement by the fact that only four post players are ahead of him in this stat, none of whom play behind two superstars, but I guess it makes sense to expect something of all 6'11 post players that only 5-6 of them are able to do. Also, Bargnani accomplishes his 5'3 FTA per game by being the #1 option on the team, not as #3. And I don't know what Bargnani being "crap" has to do with Bosh; he's "crap" for different reasons.
    There’s no fallacy here. You mentioned FTs, and I commented on FTs. And what has that to do with playing behind 2 superstars? Isnt Bosh considered a superstar as well? Doesn’t matter if youre the #1 or #20 option, what matters is the game you play. He is a 6’11” player who, at the start of the season, admittedly said he has to adjust his game to play the low block since Wade and LBJ are perimeter players. He voluntarily said he needs to rebound more and block shots more. By this statement can I safely assume that he will be playing the low block more often than before? IMO, yes. And IMO, if you play the low block more, you get hammered more, therefore getting more fouls on you and going to the line a lot more. It doesn’t concern whether you’re the 1st or last option, it’s the way you play on the court that dictates whether you get FTs or not. Bargnani is a 7 footer but he doesn’t play in the inside. And he never said im going to play more on the inside, well at least I didn’t hear of him saying that. Ive seen numerous Raptors games and Bargnani likes playing outside. So I don’t expect him to attempt as many FTs. I want him to, but its not how he plays.
    LOL. Wade is averaging 1.1 points and half a free throw less than the year before. James is averaging 3 points and 1.8 FTAs less than the year before. Bosh is averaging 5.3 points and 2.3 FTAs less than the year before. I guess James just isn't that good (sarcasm). Also applying your logic to the Celtics, none of Allen, Pierce or Garnett are that good, as all 3 of them scored an average of 6 fewer points after joining up. You do realize that there are only a certain number of touches available right? As it is, each game only has the 3 of them taking shots, with the rest of the team doing very little. The only way all 3 of them maintain their numbers from last year is if nobody else on the team takes a single shot.
    I guess you just picked the categories that would support your argument. Bosh is averaging less pts, less rebs, less asts, less blocks, less FTA than last year, considering this year he played 10 more minutes per game and 7 more games compared to last year. James’ scoring is only 3 pts less despite having 2 less shots and 2 less FTs, while his other numbers are pretty much the same. Wade’s numbers are pretty much the same as last year. With the Celtics, all three played significantly less minutes than the previous year so definitely their numbers will be down. And they had a 4th guy in Rondo who was averaging 13pts/9asts/5reb a game, basically sharing the load with them. Does Miami have a 4th guy? Besides, why would you bring up the Celtics? I don’t recall you mentioning the Celtics in our initial discussion. Just stick to the original premise of this discussion.
    Im not saying Bosh is not good, he is, just as not what everybody initially thought.
    This, quite possibly, is one of the most inane comments I've read. The first bit is only relevant if someone was trying to argue Bosh being better than James and Wade, or at least a top 5 player in the league, and I don't think anyone is trying to make that point. The second bit... by your logic, if Rose, Bryant and Amar'e joined forces, it would mean Amar'e is nothing more than a role player. As for the last statement, I find it amusing that on one hand you're saying he wasn't doing anything special, and on the other, that nobody else on our team was able to do what he did.
    I guess you haven’t read what Mr Grinch said about bargnani being the best center over every other center in the NBA except Howard. Now that is inane. But me saying Bosh is a role player beside Wade and Bosh is not. Its pretty clear if you have been watching Miami games. Its pretty evident that in the majority of games, Wade and James are the focal points of the offense. Bosh usually gets a touch after the two have gotten theirs. And again, he clearly said it way before the season started, he has given himself a role to fill, he needs to rebound, block shots and play interior D.
    Love your reasoning. So by showing that nobody except maybe Lebron can carry a team, not even Wade or Kobe, it means Bosh sucks because he can't either?. And again, what is with your fascination with comparing Bosh to top 5 talents like Kobe, Lebron and Wade? Just because someone is in the tier after the top 5 doesn't mean they are only role players. You, sir, have a very warped view that isn't supported by anything, much less the NBA.
    I didn’t say he sucks. I just said he cant carry a team, period. Wade and Lebron clearly can. And I didn’t say Bosh was a top 5 player, and I didn’t mention his name with Kobe, you did. In fact, I even said Bosh is nowhere near Kobe, LBJ or Wade because unlike them, he cant dominate games when paired with a superstar. You said franchise players cant carry their teams alone, but rather with the help of other superstars and I agreed with that.
    See, here's the thing about Raptors' fans like you that I've noticed. On one hand, you cry about the lack of talent on the team, and then when offered the possibility of keeping that talent, you cry that it's too expensive. Well, unfortunately, players are going to cost you what the market will bear, and a team that constantly dumps good players because they think the market price is unrealistic/undeserving/unfair, etc., is never going to have any, because none of the other teams are going to care that we think it's too much. Look at the Lakers, they have 3 players getting paid $14 mil, $18 mil and $25 mil. The Spurs are paying 3 players $12 mil, $14 mil and $19 mil. Same for the Magic, the Hawks (when Horford's rookie scale contract ends), the Knicks, etc. The fact is, once you're over the cap, and we always have been, it doesn't matter whether you're paying Bosh $16 mil or $14 mil or $18 mil. I think this point was clearly illustrated when Bosh walked with essentially nothing in return, and we STILL had no money to sign anyone with.
    I didn’t say don’t spend money to acquire talent or keep talent, what I said was Bosh is not worth the 15mil if he’s going to give you 18-8. If the Raptors acquired James for 15mil, and Wade 15 mil, heck id pay Bosh 15mil. But if I pay Bosh 15mil without James and Wade, yeah he’ll rack up 20-10 but will that get us anywhere? No, as we’ve seen in the past. Do you really think Riley would’ve paid Bosh 15mil and 20mil for the next couple of years if he knew Bosh was gonna give him 18-8 a night? I don’t know if you’ve been following the news but Bosh was highly criticized for not living up to the expectations. Even him admittedly said he was having trouble finding his game behind Wade and James. Its understandable if youre paying 3 guys at parity to each other and they deliver what is expected, but if youre going to pay a guy max for 18-8, then that’s a bit iffy to me. And youre right, it wont matter if the Raps sign bosh to 16, 14 or 18 mil, if they can get Wade and LBJ to agree to the same terms then that’s great. But unfortunately, with the Raps, signing Bosh to that amount won’t convince the other 2 to come here.
    I hear this a lot. Morgan Freeman is dating is grand-daughter, which is certainly terrible, but are you upset about it so much you seek every avenue to debase him to feel better? I really think you're only upset because he left, but see what happens when you/I assume to read someone's mind? Yes, Bosh had a PR nightmare over the summer, but oh effing well. I'm pretty sure I'd have a problem with like half the people in the world if they were given a megaphone and a soapbox to stand on. Instead of worrying about people who suck, I'd rather focus on all the players I respect, like Alvin Williams and Roy Halladay. Life is too short to be angry over speculation about what someone was truly thinking.
    Morgan Freeman has won an Golden Globe and a SAG award and an Academy Award nomination. And made millions by making movies box office hits, alongside elite actors like Kevin Costner and jack Nicholson. He is entitled to date all the grand daughters out there. Bosh cant even make the All NBA third team playing with Wade and James. Manu made the 3nd team playing alongside Duncan and Parker. Al horford made the 3rd team playing alongside JJ, Jsmoove and Jamal. Why didn’t Bosh? I really didn’t have to read Bosh’s mind, the evidence pretty much indicts the three of them. Him not signing the extension, Miami clearing cap, James and Wade now saying they decided to join forces because of Boston. These are things that don’t influence you decision overnight. I despise Bosh, not for leaving the Raptors, but by stringing BC along and whole Raps management by not giving them a clear indication that he had no intent of signing with the Raps. BC clearly said that Bosh had told him that he was still favoring Toronto towards the trade deadline, and he received no indication from Bosh that he was not going to re-sign. If he did it the way Anthony left the nuggets, I wont be saying anything bad about him, but bottomline is, no matter how good Bosh was for the Raps, he was a douche the way he left the Raptors hanging.

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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    And for the bolded part, but Timmy, there were CLUES and I pieced them all together and it allowed me to read his mind. Before anyone disputes the efficacy of this method, think back to your days in high school, when Bobby looked at Sue and Sue wouldn't look back, and then when Chris asked Bobby what he thought of Sue, Bobby said "she's cute." They were definitely doing the dirty over the weekend! Oh wait...
    This statement is ridiculous. I didn't even know a Bobby in high school! I do agree with your assessment of them doing the dirty, though.
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Three options:

    1. He intended to leave the Raptors.

    2. He intended to re-sign with the Raptors.

    3. He kept his options open.

    You make it sound like #1 and #2 are the only options available. Bosh no longer being in a Toronto uniform does nothing to suggest #3 isn't possible or true. Just because he didn't choose you doesn't mean he didn't keep his options open. Amusingly, it's because he kept his options open until his final decision, thereby not giving sufficient advance warning, that everyone is so mad. S M H (why is this censored?).
    Sorry, but if you believe when someone tells you "im going to keep my options open" that there is still more than a 50% chance that that person is going to revert back to the same situation as to the one before he kept his options open then that just leaves you gullible and pretty much left hanging, case and point, the raptors rebuilding. BC pretty much ate every word that Bosh said and where did that get them? rebuilding mode. You think if Bosh said, BC, listen, im going to keep my options open at the end of the season. Do what you must. You think BC wouldve still kept Bosh till the end of the season? The raps offered him a max extension and clearly indicated to him that they will build around him, consult you in any acquisitions we make and still you would like to keep your options open? Do you really think Carmelo told Masai, hey, im not signing the extension, and im still going to consider the nuggets at the end of the season but the same time, ill keep my options open and masai ended up trading him? I dont think so. If he said that, he'd be furious over being traded from the nuggets. but he wasnt. because he told the nuggets, i am not signing with you at the end of the season, so if you want to trade me now, make it happen with the Knicks. thats something that definitely will not make you shake your head.

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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Three options:

    1. He intended to leave the Raptors.

    2. He intended to re-sign with the Raptors.

    3. He kept his options open.

    You make it sound like #1 and #2 are the only options available. Bosh no longer being in a Toronto uniform does nothing to suggest #3 isn't possible or true. Just because he didn't choose you doesn't mean he didn't keep his options open. Amusingly, it's because he kept his options open until his final decision, thereby not giving sufficient advance warning, that everyone is so mad. S M H (why is this censored?).
    But what if he had expressed the mushy middle to BC in the time leading up to free agency and the two shook on the proposition that if he chose option #1 he would work with the team to get something resembling a "fair" return (in a s&t). I remember BC expressly mentioning this in an interview during the season.

    Now, one can lay the blame down on BC for believing some basketball serf on an undertaking such as that... but if this really occurred then fans of this team have a right to feel they've been had. There is something to be said about one's word and the bond thing even in business. I am maybe a naive subscriber to that mo and it seems from watching BC's dealings with players (Peja is one example) he does too. And why he was as pissed as he was post departure of Bosh. No question he was had...by Bosh, his agent or both... and alongwith Riley possibly.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    This statement is ridiculous. I didn't even know a Bobby in high school! I do agree with your assessment of them doing the dirty, though.
    I guess some of us resort to juvenile bantering when unable to support their arguments.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    well, it wasnt the FGA that was mentioned, it was the FTA. Bosh has more chances of playing the inside and getting fouled because Wade and James are covering the perimeter. Technically, he should be playing the inside a lot more because now with Miami, they are supposed to be using him as a post player. We all know Bargnani is more of a perimeter player than an inside player so you cant really compare the two based on shot selection or shot attempts.
    My point, though, is that it's not how many free throws a player takes. It's how many free throws per field goal attempt that gives you an indication of his aggressiveness. Bosh has always been over 40% and Bargnani has always been under 30%. Bosh took 5 fewer shots per game than he did last season. You think he's going to take the same number of free throws? How does that make any sense?

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Well, thats you. I personally despise him. We dont all have to have the same feelings towards everybody, right? I really dont have to pretend that i know what he was thinking, he pretty much says it everytime he gets interviewed. Its pretty much putting two and two together. I guess its just up to the person how to interpret it. I personally thought he never intended to re-sign with Toronto. That was he was thinking, and all the stuff that him, wade and lbj have been saying since the season started pretty much supports this. if you dont want to assume that this was what he was thinking, then thats you. I dont feel ridiculous to say that i know he really didnt intend to sign with Toronto, otherwise, he'd be in a raps uniform right now, dont you think?

    i dont dispute the fact that he gave his best for the raptors during his time here, and pretty much everybody knows the raps didnt get enough talent with him to get this team somewhere. what im saying is he wont have the same recognitions he got if another superstar was on this team with him, as evident with his current performance with his current team.
    I just don't understand hating a player you have never had personal contact with. Especially one who seems to be a fairly decent person. You want to hate that football player who raised fighting dogs, I can understand that. Otherwise, it just seems like a waste of energy.

    As for what accolades he's getting in Miami, well, even behind Wade and LeBron, he's still getting more attention than he did in Toronto, and he might very well get a ring, too. Players are made in the post season. And up until this year, Bosh has never been on a team that did anything in the post season. I think he's happy with the decision he made.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    My point, though, is that it's not how many free throws a player takes. It's how many free throws per field goal attempt that gives you an indication of his aggressiveness. Bosh has always been over 40% and Bargnani has always been under 30%. Bosh took 5 fewer shots per game than he did last season. You think he's going to take the same number of free throws? How does that make any sense?
    Well, this is what i was trying to say. Bosh has been more aggressive and now with his role in Miami, he's called on to be more aggressive since he's playing the inside. I dont think its an accolade to average 6.1 FTA just because youre a third fiddle. Thats what i was trying to dispute. I was saying him being a third fiddle doesnt exempt him from going to the line a lot more. He doesnt, but doesnt mean that was what was expected of him.

    I just don't understand hating a player you have never had personal contact with. Especially one who seems to be a fairly decent person. You want to hate that football player who raised fighting dogs, I can understand that. Otherwise, it just seems like a waste of energy.
    Well, i think youve had more posts criticizing Bargnani than I have of Bosh. Eventhough you say you dont hate Bargnani, youve wasted energy criticizing him time and time again. If you justify your posts, i can justify my hate, dont you think?

    As for what accolades he's getting in Miami, well, even behind Wade and LeBron, he's still getting more attention than he did in Toronto, and he might very well get a ring, too. Players are made in the post season. And up until this year, Bosh has never been on a team that did anything in the post season. I think he's happy with the decision he made.
    Again, im not criticizing his decision. Im criticizing the way that led him to that decision, and how it impacted the Raptors.

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    lol how ironic is this , bosh's failure amuses me

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    There’s no fallacy here. You mentioned FTs, and I commented on FTs. And what has that to do with playing behind 2 superstars? Isnt Bosh considered a superstar as well? Doesn’t matter if youre the #1 or #20 option, what matters is the game you play. He is a 6’11” player who, at the start of the season, admittedly said he has to adjust his game to play the low block since Wade and LBJ are perimeter players. He voluntarily said he needs to rebound more and block shots more. By this statement can I safely assume that he will be playing the low block more often than before? IMO, yes. And IMO, if you play the low block more, you get hammered more, therefore getting more fouls on you and going to the line a lot more. It doesn’t concern whether you’re the 1st or last option, it’s the way you play on the court that dictates whether you get FTs or not. Bargnani is a 7 footer but he doesn’t play in the inside. And he never said im going to play more on the inside, well at least I didn’t hear of him saying that. Ive seen numerous Raptors games and Bargnani likes playing outside. So I don’t expect him to attempt as many FTs. I want him to, but its not how he plays.

    I guess you just picked the categories that would support your argument. Bosh is averaging less pts, less rebs, less asts, less blocks, less FTA than last year, considering this year he played 10 more minutes per game and 7 more games compared to last year. James’ scoring is only 3 pts less despite having 2 less shots and 2 less FTs, while his other numbers are pretty much the same. Wade’s numbers are pretty much the same as last year. With the Celtics, all three played significantly less minutes than the previous year so definitely their numbers will be down. And they had a 4th guy in Rondo who was averaging 13pts/9asts/5reb a game, basically sharing the load with them. Does Miami have a 4th guy? Besides, why would you bring up the Celtics? I don’t recall you mentioning the Celtics in our initial discussion. Just stick to the original premise of this discussion.
    Im not saying Bosh is not good, he is, just as not what everybody initially thought.

    I guess you haven’t read what Mr Grinch said about bargnani being the best center over every other center in the NBA except Howard. Now that is inane. But me saying Bosh is a role player beside Wade and Bosh is not. Its pretty clear if you have been watching Miami games. Its pretty evident that in the majority of games, Wade and James are the focal points of the offense. Bosh usually gets a touch after the two have gotten theirs. And again, he clearly said it way before the season started, he has given himself a role to fill, he needs to rebound, block shots and play interior D.

    I didn’t say he sucks. I just said he cant carry a team, period. Wade and Lebron clearly can. And I didn’t say Bosh was a top 5 player, and I didn’t mention his name with Kobe, you did. In fact, I even said Bosh is nowhere near Kobe, LBJ or Wade because unlike them, he cant dominate games when paired with a superstar. You said franchise players cant carry their teams alone, but rather with the help of other superstars and I agreed with that.

    I didn’t say don’t spend money to acquire talent or keep talent, what I said was Bosh is not worth the 15mil if he’s going to give you 18-8. If the Raptors acquired James for 15mil, and Wade 15 mil, heck id pay Bosh 15mil. But if I pay Bosh 15mil without James and Wade, yeah he’ll rack up 20-10 but will that get us anywhere? No, as we’ve seen in the past. Do you really think Riley would’ve paid Bosh 15mil and 20mil for the next couple of years if he knew Bosh was gonna give him 18-8 a night? I don’t know if you’ve been following the news but Bosh was highly criticized for not living up to the expectations. Even him admittedly said he was having trouble finding his game behind Wade and James. Its understandable if youre paying 3 guys at parity to each other and they deliver what is expected, but if youre going to pay a guy max for 18-8, then that’s a bit iffy to me. And youre right, it wont matter if the Raps sign bosh to 16, 14 or 18 mil, if they can get Wade and LBJ to agree to the same terms then that’s great. But unfortunately, with the Raps, signing Bosh to that amount won’t convince the other 2 to come here.

    Morgan Freeman has won an Golden Globe and a SAG award and an Academy Award nomination. And made millions by making movies box office hits, alongside elite actors like Kevin Costner and jack Nicholson. He is entitled to date all the grand daughters out there. Bosh cant even make the All NBA third team playing with Wade and James. Manu made the 3nd team playing alongside Duncan and Parker. Al horford made the 3rd team playing alongside JJ, Jsmoove and Jamal. Why didn’t Bosh? I really didn’t have to read Bosh’s mind, the evidence pretty much indicts the three of them. Him not signing the extension, Miami clearing cap, James and Wade now saying they decided to join forces because of Boston. These are things that don’t influence you decision overnight. I despise Bosh, not for leaving the Raptors, but by stringing BC along and whole Raps management by not giving them a clear indication that he had no intent of signing with the Raps. BC clearly said that Bosh had told him that he was still favoring Toronto towards the trade deadline, and he received no indication from Bosh that he was not going to re-sign. If he did it the way Anthony left the nuggets, I wont be saying anything bad about him, but bottomline is, no matter how good Bosh was for the Raps, he was a douche the way he left the Raptors hanging.
    I'm getting the sense that the way you process information is a bit different from the way I do it, but let's try again:

    1. The fallacy was where you shrugged off doing something that few other PFs are doing better as being "expected" of a "role player". Shooting a good percentage is expected; being in the Top 5 PFs despite limited touches is not. If you can't understand the link between touches and FTAs, I can't really help you. And now you're saying he should be treated as a superstar so his FTAs are not impressive, despite saying for so long that he's nothing more than a role player, even before he joined the Heat. You should really decide on a singular point to back.

    2. "[...] considering this year he played 10 more minutes per game and 7 more games compared to last year [...]"

    Huh? You really should get that head checked. How did Bosh play 10 more minutes per game this season? And how does playing 7 more games affect per game stats? You're right though that there are plenty more stats to look at, but to say I only picked the advantageous ones is ridiculous. I didn't mention LBJ's fewer assists or fewer blocks either, nor Wade's fewer assists or fewer steals either. The point was that all three of them took steps back statistically because there's only so many touches to go around. That also applies to rebounds btw. As for per minute stats, if you want to go calculate them all out, go with God. It's already apparent without doing so that Bosh's 11 more seconds per game, LBJ's 13 fewer seconds per game, and Wade's 49 MORE seconds per game isn't going to make what I said false.

    3. No, I didn't read it, and no it isn't inane, just outright too ridiculous to even bother responding to.

    4. You're missing the part that even Wade couldn't carry his team alone. 3 first round exits and a 15 win season. Sure, the 15-win season he only played 51 games, but 15 wins is still pretty bad for 51 games. As I said before, only LBJ was able to carry his team alone.

    5. And not signing him won't convince anyone else not named Wade and James. You're missing the point that "overpaying" for good players is sometimes necessary, and far better than overpaying for mediocre talent. The even bigger point you're missing is that it's not overpaying when it's what the market will bear.

    6. "[...] made millions by making movies box office hits [...] He is entitled to date all the grand daughters out there."

    So basically, it's not really Bosh's character that you hate him for, but because he's not good enough to be a bad person (e.g. committing incest) without consequences, but also too good for you to not care if he had decided to come back. Am I getting it right? Because if you really didn't care for him coming back, then your anger is misplaced and you should be angry at BC for trying to re-sign him.

    "Bosh cant even make the All NBA third team playing with Wade and James. Manu made the 3nd team playing alongside Duncan and Parker. Al horford made the 3rd team playing alongside JJ, Jsmoove and Jamal. Why didn’t Bosh? "

    Not really sure how the examples you cited are relevant, but since you brought it up, why didn't Duncan make the 3rd team playing alongside Ginobili and Parker? Why didn't Parker? Why didn't Josh Smith? Why didn't Joe Johnson? Why didn't Jamal... wait, no. It should be quite obviously that LBJ and Wade shone that much brighter than Bosh, which is what I've been saying all along. Put Ginobili or Horford on Miami instead of Bosh and they might not make an All-NBA team either.

    "Him not signing the extension"

    Is what happens whenever someone keeps their options open. Signing an extension would defeat the purpose of keeping options open, no?

    "Miami clearing cap"

    So did Chicago, New York and New Jersey, in hopes of luring LBJ, Wade or Bosh. So what?

    "James and Wade now saying they decided to join forces because of Boston. These are things that don’t influence you decision overnight"

    Again, I don't think in such paranoid fashion, so I don't really how them giving a reason means they had decided long ago. In fact, I wonder if you've ever had multiple job offers. If you did, you'd know the meaning of keeping your options open. Doesn't have to mean you value each offer exactly the same; you're fully entitled to not respond to the offer you least like until you can secure the one you want, just as BC was entitled to drop out of the race by trading Bosh. Doing anything else is silly. But please, the day that you are no longer 100% sure about staying at your job, please quit it immediately to give your employer more than the necessary two week notice. And when you're applying for multiple jobs, please inform all but the one you want the most that you're withdrawing your candidacy. Do that before you've signed the final employment contract or you're a giant hypocrite.

    "BC clearly said that Bosh had told him that he was still favoring Toronto towards the trade deadline, and he received no indication from Bosh that he was not going to re-sign. If he did it the way Anthony left the nuggets, I wont be saying anything bad about him"

    Obviously you and I are reading/interpreting events differently. As I recall, before the season even began, Bosh already made it clear that he wanted to go the free agent route, but that he'd consider all possible options, including Toronto. It should have been clear that nothing was certain, but if you're surprised that's kind of your own fault. Even if he indicated Toronto was his frontrunner, he's entitled to change his mind after weighing the packages. I feel like you are making BC out to be less intelligent than he really is. Even if Bosh had told BC Toronto was still his 1st choice, BC is smart enough to know that unless an extension is signed, nothing is certain. Anthony also mentioned the possibility of returning to Denver (true or not), but the difference there is Masai didn't care to risk it and pursued trade options full throttle.

    But yes, Bosh was a douche for not telling Toronto to trade him when Toronto was the hottest or one of the hottest teams before the trade deadline, and a douche for letting our fall out of playoff contention affect his decision to return. A douche, royally.
    Last edited by Quixotic; Fri May 13th, 2011 at 09:54 PM.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    But what if he had expressed the mushy middle to BC in the time leading up to free agency and the two shook on the proposition that if he chose option #1 he would work with the team to get something resembling a "fair" return (in a s&t). I remember BC expressly mentioning this in an interview during the season.

    Now, one can lay the blame down on BC for believing some basketball serf on an undertaking such as that... but if this really occurred then fans of this team have a right to feel they've been had. There is something to be said about one's word and the bond thing even in business. I am maybe a naive subscriber to that mo and it seems from watching BC's dealings with players (Peja is one example) he does too. And why he was as pissed as he was post departure of Bosh. No question he was had...by Bosh, his agent or both... and alongwith Riley possibly.
    The question is did he? My point is that anything said after it had happened should be considered with a grain of salt as covering one's ass. Even anything said during the season is often political. I refuse to waste time considering speculation as the truth. I would only be angry if he had said, "I am returning to Toronto, but don't want to sign an extension because I've never felt the feeling of free agency before and would really like to try it out." But I'd be angry at BC, not Bosh, because that's just silly. As for trying to work with the team to get something "fair" in return, I don't think you can give that any more weight than "I won't just sign with them outright." When someone says they'll try, it doesn't mean they'll hold their future employer at gunpoint or decline their employment.

    I don't have a problem with fans not liking him leaving, or not liking what happened (I don't like what happened), but what I do have a problem with is people acting like high schoolers with he said, she said and treating speculation and guesswork as truth. I do agree that reputation means a lot to BC as evident by the way he treats players (i.e. Peja, as you said), and though I like BC as a GM, I'm not going to be naive in thinking that nothing BC says is political or for the purpose of covering his ass/smoothing things over with the fanbase.

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