Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Tim W.]

Meh. When people ask me if I like Toronto, I say, "Yeah, but the weather is absolute sh*t most of the year." And I love Toronto, and have a good job, and am very happy here. His other comments, again, meh, I have a feeling all the haterade that's being pushed his way is getting to him, it would get to me too. Not saying he doesn't deserve most of it, but I do think the sheer level of vitriol is a bit unnecessary at times.
Can't underestimate the language barrier either. My grandma speaks english in pretty much the same way he does, and when she came to Canada, she told one of my friends that it was nice that she wasn't so fat anymore, she meant to say my friend looked well and lost weight, but in her garbled english, the way she said it was, "and you're not fat not anymore."
He should be in better shape, though, although the season just ended and he seems more or less fine during the season. He definitely needs to put in his time to improve his conditioning, as I would argue that he looks gassed at the end of games and that's more detrimental to the team as we need him in the second half of games more than the first half.

I can't help but notice that most people defending him focus on him talking about a warmer climate, when it's pretty clear no one cares about that statement.

Apparently he's used the same phrase to describe Colangelo's "attack" on him before, so it's doubtful it's a language thing. And if Bargnani is so upset, maybe he can explain what it was that Colangelo said that was unwarranted.

As for the picture, if it was just that I wouldn't think twice, but that, coupled with all the other things, including his apparent lack of desire on the court, makes me really wonder about his dedication. He's shown no improvement on defense and actually regressed in the rebounding department, which was poor to begin with. If he's not dedicated, then why on earth would you want to keep him? You can't change a guy's personality.

[K06]

I have a hard time giving bargnani and sympathy when he complains about playing his natural position. He is an 7 Foot NBA player, do what the coach tells you. Get your butt in paint and box the hell out! I dont mind his offensive game but defense and rebounding is important for every team thats wants to improve their standing. Charles Barkley talks about the Heat being whiney, wonder what he thinks about bargnani!

[RaptorDan]

I can't help but think that we are looking at Bargnani's fluffer.

[maman]

Ok I know it is totally useless, but I'll try to put things in the correct perspective. Picture is old like years old. How do I know? A guy from an Italian basket forum has had that picture as his avatar for at least the past 2 years (wouldn't be surprised if the guy is the one in the picture).

Italian speaker here and listened to the interview. The "politically correct" statement out of context sounds ugly I agree, but context matters. He was clearly being self-ironic for the very predictable answer he gave to the previous question which was: "Where are you going to play next year". Believe me it was very evident if you hear the interview.

As for the Colangelo remarks. I have not read the Star article, but if that is the complete article they are framing it exactly how i would frame it if I wanted the incite the hater that local supporters are already showing for the guy.
He said what is reported (more or less), but he also added that his status as a starter and main offensive terminal make him more responsible than other players if things go south as they did. So that a fair amount of criticism is more than justified.

As for the role thing he stated repeatedly that he is a pf. So they asked him where would he want to go if he was traded and he just said somewhere where I can play the four and warm. I fail to see what's so disrespectful about that. If you could chose would you say I want to live in Cleveland or i want to live in South Beach?

Now I know that what i said won't change anybody's opinion on the guy, but some things needed to be said. And let me say this: The Star is pure junk.

[East Coast]

That type of language is not welcome here. People want to hate the guy and blame him for everything in piece. They love draft time and they want to set up a program where they're even worse than they were this year so they can get another high pick, and have someone else to blame, because they got rid of the dead weight in Andrea, and someone will have to be held accountable when the defense doesn't magically improve and Demar looks like he's regressed, because teams are able to zone in on him, and no one in the front court needs to be guarded away from the basket.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

First of all, you're talking about several different regimes. The only continuous thread in this organization is the name and the city the team plays in. Can this current one be blamed for what happened with Vince or Stoudamire or McGrady? No. That's like a homeowner being responsible for things all the owners did.

In this case, the only thing that I would blame on management is that they saw more from Bargnani than was there. You draft a soft, jumpshooting big man who doesn't rebound or play defense and you shouldn't be surprised that's what you end up with. Other than that, he deserved the criticism levelled at him, so him complaining about it doesn't jibe with me.

That is a fair assessment, however, the owners are still the same, and i doubt that they have no input, even just a tiny bit when it comes to players, coaches, etc. we've seen how owners have been really influential with other teams (bobcats, mavs, clips), maybe they have had a hand with some of the decision making, but im just speculating.

oh i agree entirely, and he does deserve some criticism. but who knows, BC might have told him, all we need you to do is score, we'll surround you with rebounders and defenders and you just keep scoring. everything we say after the fact is pretty much speculation anyways.

[Apollo]

The board actually exercised lots of power before Colangelo entered the scene. It wasn't uncommon for them to undermine their past GM's. When they entered into talks with Colangelo one stipulation for him taking the job was that the board would trust him and stay out of his way so that he could operate the way a GM needs to operate.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

How do we know they haven't tried to do something before now. Maybe they have asked him to work on his weaknesses every year and only now are they resorting to saying in the media. We have no idea what's been going on behind closed doors before now.

And no one is getting on his case like he's a franchise player. I've got to say that tact bothers me. People are getting on his case like he's a basketball player. And those are the things we expect of ANY basketball player.

i think at this point, you blame the management and not the player. the guy has been with the raptors for 5 years, and its fairly obvious that he has shown no improvement in defense and rebounding. if they were that adamant about these 2 skills, they shouldve traded him a long time ago, or demoted him to the bench. but they reward him with a few more years and more money, if i were Bargnani, i would think to myself, hey, im probably doing something right here. why would they do all these things for me if i havent been following the program? bottomline is, they gave him the go signal to keep scoring and not paying attention to how bad his defense and rebounding was, and now that theyve realized it, theyre throwing him under the bus for something that they shouldve realized a long time ago. its pretty evident how his scoring improved through the years, and that obviously says they focused on his scoring more than other things.

i agree. who knows if theyve done something before, and who knows if they havent. its all speculation, and we can all just speculate.

i agree with the last statement. franchise player or not, you should be expected to do the basics. but, again, we dont know what management really told him about his role on the team. he may have been told, youre a scorer, score. rebound and defend to the best of your abilities, but your number one goal is to score. we'll get defenders and rebounders for you, dont worry. i think its the same thing when you tell reggie, whenever you go on the court, all you need to do is rebound and defend, if you get a decent shot, take it, but your main goal is to get as many rebounds and just defend. they couldve said the same thing to Bargnani, who knows....

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The board actually exercised lots of power before Colangelo entered the scene. It wasn't uncommon for them to undermine their past GM's. When they entered into talks with Colangelo one stipulation for him taking the job was that the board would trust him and stay out of his way so that he could operate the way a GM needs to operate.

i wouldnt be surprised if they still had input. they have all the leverage, as evidenced by their waiting 1 month before the expiration of colangelo's contract to renew it. i bet you you they gave him a bit of scare, coz really, he can demand all his wants but in the end, they sign his paychecks. if there was really no influence on the owners parts, why is it only now that colangelo is calling out bargnani after 5 years? they probably told him, experiment's over, we sign you, you get rid of him.

[Apollo]

i wouldnt be surprised if they still had input. they have all the leverage, as evidenced by their waiting 1 month before the expiration of colangelo's contract to renew it. i bet you you they gave him a bit of scare, coz really, he can demand all his wants but in the end, they sign his paychecks. if there was really no influence on the owners parts, why is it only now that colangelo is calling out bargnani after 5 years? they probably told him, experiment's over, we sign you, you get rid of him.

Based on what I read only one board member was not in support of Colangelo and that's what caused the hold up.

Also, one of the other reasons the board took a step back was because in the public eye and around the league they had given themselves a bad images as being notorious for stepping in, vetoing ideas and making bad basketball decisions that affected the team tremendously.

[MyMomLovesMe]

It's my understanding that Bryan submitted his homework to trade out of this mess, and the board said thanks but no thanks. We will rebuild... so judging by his recent success, I have a feeling Bryan is not as autonomous as he was a few years ago. (I think they both still need to be on the same page)

[Papa Burgundy]

Bargnani talking about his role? People really can't figure that out to be a logical statement?

HE WANTS TO BE A POWER FORWARD, NOT A CENTRE!!!

[Tim W.]

That is a fair assessment, however, the owners are still the same, and i doubt that they have no input, even just a tiny bit when it comes to players, coaches, etc. we've seen how owners have been really influential with other teams (bobcats, mavs, clips), maybe they have had a hand with some of the decision making, but im just speculating.

oh i agree entirely, and he does deserve some criticism. but who knows, BC might have told him, all we need you to do is score, we'll surround you with rebounders and defenders and you just keep scoring. everything we say after the fact is pretty much speculation anyways.

It's not even the same ownership, though. And they've had very little input since Colangelo took over.

As for what Colangelo said to Bargnani, it's all speculation. Might he have told Bargnani that he only has to score? Maybe, but that's doubtful. You're not going to win much that way, and I'm pretty sure Colangelo is smart enough to know that.

i think at this point, you blame the management and not the player. the guy has been with the raptors for 5 years, and its fairly obvious that he has shown no improvement in defense and rebounding. if they were that adamant about these 2 skills, they shouldve traded him a long time ago, or demoted him to the bench. but they reward him with a few more years and more money, if i were Bargnani, i would think to myself, hey, im probably doing something right here. why would they do all these things for me if i havent been following the program? bottomline is, they gave him the go signal to keep scoring and not paying attention to how bad his defense and rebounding was, and now that theyve realized it, theyre throwing him under the bus for something that they shouldve realized a long time ago. its pretty evident how his scoring improved through the years, and that obviously says they focused on his scoring more than other things.

i agree. who knows if theyve done something before, and who knows if they havent. its all speculation, and we can all just speculate.

i agree with the last statement. franchise player or not, you should be expected to do the basics. but, again, we dont know what management really told him about his role on the team. he may have been told, youre a scorer, score. rebound and defend to the best of your abilities, but your number one goal is to score. we'll get defenders and rebounders for you, dont worry. i think its the same thing when you tell reggie, whenever you go on the court, all you need to do is rebound and defend, if you get a decent shot, take it, but your main goal is to get as many rebounds and just defend. they couldve said the same thing to Bargnani, who knows....

Sam Mitchell certainly didn't allow Bargnani to not rebound or play defense, no matter what management might have said. And he was his coach the first 2.5 years. As for Triano, I know a lot of fans around here don't like him, but he's smart enough to know you're not going to win much without your big man doing the dirty work. Besides, I've seen Triano yell at Bargnani for not doing that exact thing.

And I don't think management is going to micromanage things from behind closed doors. That simply doesn't make any basketball sense. Why would they do that?

I also think that you're forgiving the player far too much. If I'm Bargnani, and management tells me that I don't have to rebound or play defense, I'm smart enough to know you aren't going to win that way. This isn't Nazi soldiers following orders, here. If Bargnani doesn't have a high enough basketball IQ to realize that's a horrible way for a big man to play, then the fault lies with him, and he should be shipped off immediately.

For more reading on Bargnani, I just posted this on him...
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...s-of-bargnani/

[Tim W.]

Bargnani talking about his role? People really can't figure that out to be a logical statement?

HE WANTS TO BE A POWER FORWARD, NOT A CENTRE!!!

And what exactly would the difference be for Bargnani. He'd still have to rebound and play defense. And if you actually watched this year, he DID play mostly PF this season. Reggie, Davis and Amir mostly defended the team's best offensive big men, no matter which position they were, and even in the zone, Bargnani was on the wing, not manning the middle. This "position" controversy is bogus, and yet another excuse in a VERY long line of excuses.

[Papa Burgundy]

And what exactly would the difference be for Bargnani. He'd still have to rebound and play defense. And if you actually watched this year, he DID play mostly PF this season. Reggie, Davis and Amir mostly defended the team's best offensive big men, no matter which position they were, and even in the zone, Bargnani was on the wing, not manning the middle. This "position" controversy is bogus, and yet another excuse in a VERY long line of excuses.

I'm on board with believing that if Ed Davis comes back 20lbs. heavier - that the 2 players work, and that they would both just be called "bigs". I just think he needs a partner who excels at rebounding, help D and shot blocking (something ED is capable of) to make up for Bargnani's shortcomings ... And I honestly think the criticism decreases towards Bargs if people stop comparing him to the traditional roles of a C.

[Tim W.]

I'm on board with believing that if Ed Davis comes back 20lbs. heavier - that the 2 players work, and that they would both just be called "bigs". I just think he needs a partner who excels at rebounding, help D and shot blocking (something ED is capable of) to make up for Bargnani's shortcomings ... And I honestly think the criticism decreases towards Bargs if people stop comparing him to the traditional roles of a C.

Both Davis and Amir DID this last season. Didn't seem to help Bargnani at all.

And I think the criticism of Bargnani will decrease when he does what is minimally expected for ANY big man, center OR PF. And that's play decent defense and rebound the ball. I have to say I'm getting sick of this excuse that people only are critical of Bargnani because he's not a traditional center. They're critical of Bargnani because he literally has a negative effect on the team because his defense and rebounding are so bad, no matter what position he plays.

[dzoni71]

NBA title bound - yeah reading the Raps forums I've came to the conclusion that Bargs is the only thing holding us from a NBA title. Who knows, maybe even a dynasty is in place?

Seriously though, it's nothing short of amazing how much time the Raps fans have given the Bargs situation and for the most part they think he is the biggest problem of the franchise, I have read articles and posts suggesting we trade him for somebody else’s junk (Gooden and the like)? I think we seriously need to seek professional help in the treatment of this mass masochism. Because Raps nation, be careful what you wish for, I think your wishes might very well become reality come this summer only to watch Bargs become part of a successful playoff team (something like Marion), and the Raps to be stuck again at the bottom of the standings.

The biggest improvement team can make is actually at a completely different position, i.e. head coach. It amazes me how little grief Triano has received from the fans for hopelessly underachieving. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he doesn't know b-ball, he does, it's just that he has absolutely no leadership skills. In short, what he preaches does not translate to the court. He has to go, like now! Bring on Adelman.

[enlightenment]

Hey man I'm sorry I cringe everytime I see a player being paid MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to play a SPORT and does so in the most lethargic and lazy manor. I would rather see our team with even LESS wins but with every player fighting and scrapping, and once in a while coming out with a very improbable win due to our effort. Thats how you start a culture in your team. Not let some fat 7ft softie throw up mid-range shot after mid-range shot and then waft between going for the rebound and running back on defence.

[Tim W.]

NBA title bound - yeah reading the Raps forums I've came to the conclusion that Bargs is the only thing holding us from a NBA title. Who knows, maybe even a dynasty is in place?

Seriously though, it's nothing short of amazing how much time the Raps fans have given the Bargs situation and for the most part they think he is the biggest problem of the franchise, I have read articles and posts suggesting we trade him for somebody else’s junk (Gooden and the like)? I think we seriously need to seek professional help in the treatment of this mass masochism. Because Raps nation, be careful what you wish for, I think your wishes might very well become reality come this summer only to watch Bargs become part of a successful playoff team (something like Marion), and the Raps to be stuck again at the bottom of the standings.

The biggest improvement team can make is actually at a completely different position, i.e. head coach. It amazes me how little grief Triano has received from the fans for hopelessly underachieving. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he doesn't know b-ball, he does, it's just that he has absolutely no leadership skills. In short, what he preaches does not translate to the court. He has to go, like now! Bring on Adelman.

I love this comeback. Not one reasonable person has said that Bargnani is holding the team back from being good. Not one. But he's is a big problem and priority number one, at the moment. He's a big man who is a horrible defender and rebounder and literally has a negative effect on the team when he's on the floor. You don't mind that? Fine, but it's pretty hard to improve your team with a player like that.

And Marion is a bad comparison for Bargnani because Marion is a two-way player who doesn't have a fatal flaw. I really don't understand the love for a player who is so bad at all but one thing. I really don't.

Triano is fine for now because it's not as if the team has the pieces to go anywhere, anyway. When the Raptors have the talent to do some damage THEN you look at your coaching situation.

[Apollo]

Hey man I'm sorry I cringe everytime I see a player being paid MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to play a SPORT and does so in the most lethargic and lazy manor. I would rather see our team with even LESS wins but with every player fighting and scrapping, and once in a while coming out with a very improbable win due to our effort. Thats how you start a culture in your team. Not let some fat 7ft softie throw up mid-range shot after mid-range shot and then waft between going for the rebound and running back on defence.

Hey enlightenment, welcome to the board if I have not already said it before. I hear you 100%. Bargnani strikes me as the poster boy for the way pro sports is heading with this new "everyone is special" generation. A lot of youth coming out of high school now have a sense of entitlement and it's going to be a real damper on society if they can't shake that b.s. they've been pumped full of for 17 years. Athletes have it even worse seeing how they're getting a heavier dose of it and they're getting it also from their peers/hangers the whole way up through. I think Bargnani is a lost cause when it comes to him maximizing his potential. He's missing a key ingredient needed to harness his amazing innate abilities. He suffers from one of the same problems that held Carter back. So talented that he never really needed to push himself to taste a level of success and so coddled that he never learned the value of pushing one's self.