Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[MangoKid]

Bargnani the 2nd best player in his draft - first season watching the NBA?

Roy - Aldridge - Rondo - Gay - Milsap happen to ring a bell?

Would love to see the list of starting Cs or even PFs who are/were worse rebounders than Andrea. (I'll give you a hint, don't start with this year because he is last on that list)

Actually, brothersteve said that Bargnani was the 2nd best pick out of the top 5 in that 2006 draft class. Out of that class, I'd say that Aldridge, Rondo and Gay are better than Bargnani. Roy's knees won't hold up too much longer and Milsap, well, it's debatable, but I think Bargnani is a smidge better. Utah has been actively shopping Millsap - despite the fact that he has a modest salary. I mean, hell, they're looking at taking Kanter at #3 if he's there. It's kind of alarming.

You talk about Bargnani like he's a crap player when in fact, he's not. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the team whenever there's a next season.

[charlesnba23]

Sincerely, I believe Bryan Colangelo did a GREAT choice by choosing Dwane Casey as the next head coach of this team. Casey knows that Bargnani has tremendous potential. Bargnani is a 7 footer who can score from anywhere on the floor. Personally, I'd wait to see what he does at the start of next season before trading him. You can't trade a guy who's talented like this. He'll be only 26 by the start of next season. He still have a marge of improvement and that's on the defensive end. I'm eager to see what he'll do next season. If he grabs 7 rebounds a game or more by the deadline, keep him. Absolutely. If he's not, then trade him, absolutely!

[Maleko]

Not sure I understand the hate towards Bargnani. I agree that he is lazy and confused when it comes to defense.

I think you answered your own thoughts (I would add rebounding to D)...he has the skills, but does not put in the effort or energy to using them on any semblance of regularity.

[Tim W.]

[Vik]

Tim's comment wins the thread.

[Tim W.]

Sincerely, I believe Bryan Colangelo did a GREAT choice by choosing Dwane Casey as the next head coach of this team. Casey knows that Bargnani has tremendous potential. Bargnani is a 7 footer who can score from anywhere on the floor. Personally, I'd wait to see what he does at the start of next season before trading him. You can't trade a guy who's talented like this. He'll be only 26 by the start of next season. He still have a marge of improvement and that's on the defensive end. I'm eager to see what he'll do next season. If he grabs 7 rebounds a game or more by the deadline, keep him. Absolutely. If he's not, then trade him, absolutely!

So you want to wait until it becomes obvious to the rest of the league that no coach and no system is ever going to turn this guy into a two way player? That's a good way to kill someone's trade value.

I am going on record here. After watching Bargnani for 5 years, I am 99% sure that he is never going to ever become a decent rebounder or defender over the course of an entire season. He simply does not have the skills to do it. Everyone talks about his offensive skills, but what his fans seem to gloss over is that he has ABSOLUTELY no rebounding or defensive skills. The physical ability to actually do it is different from having the actual skills. TONS of players have the physical ability. I could name you 50 players off the top of my head who had the physical ability to be very good to excellent rebounder and defenders, but who simply did not have the actual ability to do it over the course of a season. It takes a skill you cannot simply learn.

[hateslosing]

Bargs is probably here for another season. I think Casey can help him, whether it will be enough remains to be seen.

lol, that's awesome.

[Halifax Raps Fan]

Gotcha'. Missed that! Doesn't change my view though...

[minks77]

Seriously - Bargs is the second best pick out of the top 5 in his draft class - and LaMarcus Aldridge aka Chris Bosh lite only made a serious move past him last season after Roy's knees finally let him down on a long term basis (as expected when he was drafted) and LaMarcus was forced to step up his game - kudos to him for doing it so fast (he can now shed the nickname).

Bargs was the Raptors best shot blocker until last season when he was forced to take on a greater offensive load - AND YES he needs to figure out how to play hard at both ends of the floor - In all likelihood under Coach Casey, he will figure it out.

Playing like the last pick in the draft? - Let's have just a little bit of reality in our rants.

All that proves is that was a poorly scouted draft. If you were to redraft that class no way he's top 5. LA, BRoy (jury is still out on his health and future but he's been a better contributor on a better team than AB will ever be), Rondo, Gay, Millsap. The next level down has AB battling it out with Farmar, Thabo and Brown, Ty Thomas a step behind them. As for being the best shot blocker on one of the worst shot blocking teams in the L... wtf does that say?

And LA has been better than CB lite. He's better on the glass, MUCH better in the Post and so much better on D that it's not funny. Plus he's developed a nifty mid range game. He has, until last year, always been a 2nd or 3rd option, has better leadership abilities and a much better body. CB is LA-Lite and has been since before CB went to Miami and before LA was forced to be Portlands #1.

[GarbageTime]

Actually, brothersteve said that Bargnani was the 2nd best pick out of the top 5 in that 2006 draft class. Out of that class, I'd say that Aldridge, Rondo and Gay are better than Bargnani. Roy's knees won't hold up too much longer and Milsap, well, it's debatable, but I think Bargnani is a smidge better. Utah has been actively shopping Millsap - despite the fact that he has a modest salary. I mean, hell, they're looking at taking Kanter at #3 if he's there. It's kind of alarming.

You talk about Bargnani like he's a crap player when in fact, he's not. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the team whenever there's a next season.

yes I forgot. When you begin to limit analysis to smaller windows Bargnani does look better. If we actually look at the entire draft class (which I would also note may have been the worst draft class in the last decade or more) he suddenly drops from the "2nd best". Roys knees may not hold up, but there is no doubt he was a better player.

I think Bargnani is crap for his contract and how he's used....he's also a crap defender and a crap rebounder. Thats not exactly a suprise. Crap player?... well I guess that comes down to how one defines it....but "...Bargnani like he's a crap player when in fact, he's not" is not a fact at all.

I do also think he will be on the team next season. I said that right at the end of this past season and after Colangelo's post season press conference. That hardly means its a good thing for this team or the right choice.

atleast he's the best at something:

http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.co...ers-in-2010-11

[heinz57]

once again, sir, your anti-bargs comments trump all others. thread should be closed now.

[GarbageTime]

once again, sir, your anti-bargs comments trump all others. thread should be closed now.

"i can't wait for Tim W to wake up. This thread will give him a conniption fit"

Did no one ever tell you to be careful what you wish for?

[ezz_bee]

I've watched bargnani for ALL 5 of his NBA seasons
at least 75% of his rookie games
100%+ of his second season (lived w/ my dad who got an hd tv, and the sports package that including Raptors TV, when it ensured you could watch every game!) I watched many games more than once thanks to the helpful "game in an hour" program.

about 50% of the last 3.

Here's what I've noticed. At the end of season 3 and 4. I was saying the same thing. If only he could be better rebounder and team defender. He has had THE SAME problems for 3 full seasons and STILL has them. If you want to make a prediction about human behaviour, the safest assumption is to assume that people will act in the same manner in which they have acted in the past. Do people break these assumptions all the time? Of course, but that doesn't mean we are better off making decisions based on what people, have done, NOT on what the may (or may not).

Now, if Bargnani, somehow manages to over come his glaring defensive and rebounding liabilities will I admit that I was wrong? OF COURSE. And will I cheer for him? OF COURSE. Will I say that coangelo was smarter than me and kept the big guy even when I was shopping him? PROBABLY NOT. The reason being that the odds are HEAVILY stacked against bargnani being effective at both ends of the court. THE BEST case scenario is that his defensive liabilities are "hidden". That's not a good enough reason to keep the guy. The smart GM would be shopping bargs and if he got a good offer, so long. I hope that Casey does something with this guy. I really do! I say potential in him in his rookie and sophomore season, but he still has overcome his deficiencies three years later.

I can't say i'm 99% like tim, but i'm at least 84.7666666666666(repeator)% that we have bargs at his best. On a better team his percentages and efficiency go up, and you can hide his defense a little bit better, but he doesn't change as a player. And to think otherwise is banking on 15.23333(repeator)% and that kind of makes you not very smart. (The general you, not YOU specifically, I'm sure you could kill all kinds of intelligence tests).

I apologize for the CAPS but barg's has a greater effect on my keyboard than he does on the glass.

[heinz57]

"i can't wait for Tim W to wake up. This thread will give him a conniption fit"

Did no one ever tell yoy to be careful what you wish for?

why? his reaction to the thread was exactly what i was hoping for.

[saints91]

I would prefer to see what Casey can do with Bargnani. I don't think the raptors are getting offers for him that would benefit our team. He does have value on this team. I think most of you are being a little over critical of him. I don't think we should give him away for nothing.

If he doesn't change his play on the defensive end, and we aren't getting fair value, I think we should move him out of the starting line up. Detlef Schrempf role.

[ezz_bee]

I don't think we should move him for nothing either. But I do think he has value in the league, and based on his contract, if he doesn't grow, his value drops significantly. I wrote a ridiculously long post a few months back were I looked at his production vs. salary and came away with him be about worth his money (probably a little bit less) unfortunately we pay him more ever year, which means that if his production goes up than he remains a reasonable contract, however, if he doesn't his value drops significantly. At the time I wrote if you are going to trade bargnani sooner is better than later. To be honest I think Coangelo will miss that opportunity if he doesn't move bargnani before christmas. After that we are probably stuck with him whether we like it or not. Having bargs come off the bench isn't necessarily a bad play except that he makes 9m, 10m, 11m, & 12m. The Lakers don't even pay someone that much to come off the bench! (Odom makes 8.9m and has a TEAM option of 8.2m after that) That's Jason Terry territory. And If we had 10 consecutive 50+ seasons and were sniffing the conference finals pretty much every year, i'd be all for it (probably) but we aren't. Barg's 12m coming off the bench? That cannot be a good thing.


EDIT: I am curious to see how barg's plays for Casey as well, unfortunately, if he tanks we can't take a mullligan. However, I am sooo curious that I said the deadline for a bargs deal is X-Mas when really in reality it probably should be this very second! Barg's is like nose candy, it's probably going to ruin your life, but it might not so you kind have to try it, over and over and over again!

[Tim W.]

I would prefer to see what Casey can do with Bargnani. I don't think the raptors are getting offers for him that would benefit our team. He does have value on this team. I think most of you are being a little over critical of him. I don't think we should give him away for nothing.

If he doesn't change his play on the defensive end, and we aren't getting fair value, I think we should move him out of the starting line up. Detlef Schrempf role.

Detlef was a better rebounder and defender than Bargnani is. He was also a better passer and was better at getting to the line. That's why he could play such a big role on a contender. He was never a liability.

[Tim W.]

why? his reaction to the thread was exactly what i was hoping for.

I'm here to please.

[WhatWhat]

I don't think we should move him for nothing either. But I do think he has value in the league, and based on his contract, if he doesn't grow, his value drops significantly. I wrote a ridiculously long post a few months back were I looked at his production vs. salary and came away with him be about worth his money (probably a little bit less) unfortunately we pay him more ever year, which means that if his production goes up than he remains a reasonable contract, however, if he doesn't his value drops significantly. At the time I wrote if you are going to trade bargnani sooner is better than later. To be honest I think Coangelo will miss that opportunity if he doesn't move bargnani before christmas. After that we are probably stuck with him whether we like it or not. Having bargs come off the bench isn't necessarily a bad play except that he makes 9m, 10m, 11m, & 12m. The Lakers don't even pay someone that much to come off the bench! (Odom makes 8.9m and has a TEAM option of 8.2m after that) That's Jason Terry territory. And If we had 10 consecutive 50+ seasons and were sniffing the conference finals pretty much every year, i'd be all for it (probably) but we aren't. Barg's 12m coming off the bench? That cannot be a good thing.


EDIT: I am curious to see how barg's plays for Casey as well, unfortunately, if he tanks we can't take a mullligan. However, I am sooo curious that I said the deadline for a bargs deal is X-Mas when really in reality it probably should be this very second! Barg's is like nose candy, it's probably going to ruin your life, but it might not so you kind have to try it, over and over and over again!

This is basically how I feel. But I'm more like Tim with the certainty and all...Actually, I'm more certain, almost like I know giving White Swan another chance won't work. Dude was my favourite player on the team for awhile, too. And when it doesn't work out, his trade value will plummet (we will likely get Biyombo, and we got that tough, defensive minded coach to light a fire under his ass; all excuses will have been exhausted), and then we'll be forced to trade him for nothing. There's a bit of a Catch-22 here.

Bargnani will only have a legitmate chance of turning things

An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?

[charlz]

Hopefully Casey is towing company line to raise his trade value.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo...ndrea-bargnani

That's what I was thinking - also there is a 20% chance he will return to Toronto next year if there is no deal for him and if so you have to be prepared to work with him.