View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5421
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Precious.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    This is basically how I feel. But I'm more like Tim with the certainty and all...Actually, I'm more certain, almost like I know giving White Swan another chance won't work. Dude was my favourite player on the team for awhile, too. And when it doesn't work out, his trade value will plummet (we will likely get Biyombo, and we got that tough, defensive minded coach to light a fire under his ass; all excuses will have been exhausted), and then we'll be forced to trade him for nothing. There's a bit of a Catch-22 here.

    Bargnani will only have a legitmate chance of turning things

    An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?
    By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

    Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

    Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

    I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.

  3. #5423
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

    Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

    Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

    I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
    Finally some sanity. Its ok and natural to be frustrated by AB. In no way shape or form has he lived up to his potential. But to suggest hes had everything designed around him for the last 6 years is completely ridiculus. Maybe the last year - but even then, "designed around him" wuold have meant a defensive 5 beside him, which he has never had.

    He has very much dissapointed me on the offensive end in terms of clutch scoring. Id be totally open to moving him for the right piece. But to suggest he belongs on the scrap heap is just ridiculus.

  4. #5424
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
    I'm "running him out of town" not because he is arguably or best player, but because he has arguably the worst contract. That's right, I said worst. Calderon has two years left bargs has 4. Four more years, with each year he is guaranteed to make 1m more than the previous season. He is barely earning his money now. BARELY. If you want more details I've written a large article on it here From a contract vs. production/efficiency Bargnani looks remarkably unremarkable.

    But I stand by the don't trade him for nothing. try and get value. however, I think that as the season goes on his value goes down down down down down. But I will apologize if I am wrong wrong wrong.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  5. #5425
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    nobody is "running him out of town" we're just doing whats best for the franchise. his greatest worth to us right now, is in what he can fetch us. be it a high draft pick or young talent. no matter what happens, deep down, we all just want to see him finally dance like nobody is watching.
    @jerboat

  6. #5426
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    Quote tim w. wrote: View Post
    ftw!
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

  7. #5427
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I'm "running him out of town" not because he is arguably or best player, but because he has arguably the worst contract. That's right, I said worst. Calderon has two years left bargs has 4. Four more years, with each year he is guaranteed to make 1m more than the previous season. He is barely earning his money now. BARELY. If you want more details I've written a large article on it here From a contract vs. production/efficiency Bargnani looks remarkably unremarkable.

    But I stand by the don't trade him for nothing. try and get value. however, I think that as the season goes on his value goes down down down down down. But I will apologize if I am wrong wrong wrong.
    Worst meaning biggest contract I can see where your going. I for one am not big on the Raptors having cap space as it's no where close to a desired location and as everyone is aware free agency is where you get the most overpaid players (especially when signing with the Raps ie. Hedo and Kapono to name a few). I'd rather see BC move expiring deals for players with a few years left on their contract rather then have the flexibility to sign fee agents. When is the last time we got a FA worth mentioning so whats with the desire to have cap space other then over pay mediocre players to come? With the new CBA maybe this will change but that remains to be seen or discussed at this point.

    At least your reasonable saying that you think and willing to say your wrong if he plays well. Some people on this forum seem to think there thoughts are facts and couldn't be wrong. Debating is what makes this place great but people have to be reasonable as well.

  8. #5428
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    nobody is "running him out of town" we're just doing whats best for the franchise. his greatest worth to us right now, is in what he can fetch us. be it a high draft pick or young talent. no matter what happens, deep down, we all just want to see him finally dance like nobody is watching.
    We're just doing whats best for the franchise is opinionated not fact. His greatest worth to us would be to play well and improve his value if he is to be traded.... Not what he can "fetch" us now.... High draft pick next year you perhaps have an argument, this year your getting no where near top dollar for the investment. And refrain from using words like always, never or all unless your sure of it. The majority would be better word choice then all as it's not accurate to the topic!

  9. #5429
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    Bargnani doesn't care about defense he puts way to much emphasis on offense you can tell by his comments. You cant change his mindset at this point in his career. Casey will start hating this guy as much as most fans 5 games into the season. Anybody think the dirk effect has something p do with BC hiring Casey ossicle thinking he can turn barge into a dirk type player?

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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

    Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

    Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

    I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
    On the surface, this seems like a good argument. Unfortunately, it's really not. Has Bargnani been allowed to play his "natural" position? No. Should it matter? Not at all. David Lee, who is far less suited to play center than Bargnani made the All-Star team with New York doing it. Al Horford, who's also far less suited to play center also made the All-Star team playing center. Dirk Nowitzki has also made the All-Star team while being Dallas' starting center.

    Bargnani has averaged 30 mpg over the course of his career, and this despite being one of the worst rebounding and defending big men in the entire league. How ANYONE can say he hasn't been given a far better chance than just about anyone in the history of the league? 99% of NBA players would KILL for the chances that Bargnani has received. And the majority of NBA players who have succeeded, did so with far fewer advantages than Bargnani has had.

    And this has absolutely nothing to do with him being a #1 pick. The only people that are even bringing this up are the people that are making excuses for him. No one cares. In fact, him being a #1 pick has probably been his BIGGEST advantage, because it's given him more opportunities than a player drafted lower would have been given.

    I'm just so sick of these excuses people come up with to explain why Bargnani has basically become the player he should have been expected when he was drafted. I didn't like the selection from day one because of two fatal flaws in his game. Lack of desire to defend and rebound. What's stunning to me is that's it's 5 years later and people still seem puzzled that he isn't even a decent rebounder or defender.

    It's like a Kevin James movie. The reviews are horrible, all the reviews say it sucks, the trailer looks horrible and he's never made a decent movie. Why on earth would anyone go to the movie and think that it would be anything BUT awful?

    Bargnani has never shown an ability to rebound consistently. Ever. He's never shown an ability to be even a consistently average defender. Ever. Yet people want to hold out hope that he just needs one more year and he'll get it. He's had FIVE F**KING YEARS!!!!!!!! You're not being optimistic. You're being insane.

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  11. #5431
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    Tim, you're being far too harsh on him.












    Paul Blart Mall Cop wasn't THAT bad.

    Oh wait, no I'm thinking of that other mall security guard movie with Seth Rogan

    Carry on

  12. #5432
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    On the surface, this seems like a good argument. Unfortunately, it's really not. Has Bargnani been allowed to play his "natural" position? No. Should it matter? Not at all. David Lee, who is far less suited to play center than Bargnani made the All-Star team with New York doing it. Al Horford, who's also far less suited to play center also made the All-Star team playing center. Dirk Nowitzki has also made the All-Star team while being Dallas' starting center.

    Bargnani has averaged 30 mpg over the course of his career, and this despite being one of the worst rebounding and defending big men in the entire league. How ANYONE can say he hasn't been given a far better chance than just about anyone in the history of the league? 99% of NBA players would KILL for the chances that Bargnani has received. And the majority of NBA players who have succeeded, did so with far fewer advantages than Bargnani has had.

    And this has absolutely nothing to do with him being a #1 pick. The only people that are even bringing this up are the people that are making excuses for him. No one cares. In fact, him being a #1 pick has probably been his BIGGEST advantage, because it's given him more opportunities than a player drafted lower would have been given.

    I'm just so sick of these excuses people come up with to explain why Bargnani has basically become the player he should have been expected when he was drafted. I didn't like the selection from day one because of two fatal flaws in his game. Lack of desire to defend and rebound. What's stunning to me is that's it's 5 years later and people still seem puzzled that he isn't even a decent rebounder or defender.

    It's like a Kevin James movie. The reviews are horrible, all the reviews say it sucks, the trailer looks horrible and he's never made a decent movie. Why on earth would anyone go to the movie and think that it would be anything BUT awful?

    Bargnani has never shown an ability to rebound consistently. Ever. He's never shown an ability to be even a consistently average defender. Ever. Yet people want to hold out hope that he just needs one more year and he'll get it. He's had FIVE F**KING YEARS!!!!!!!! You're not being optimistic. You're being insane.

    Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

    1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

    2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

    If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.

  13. #5433
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Of the many reasons to watch the Raps this upcoming season (if there is ever one) will be the drama between Casey and Andrea. I will continue to marvel at the the fans that thinks there's still hope. We shouldn't really fight about this anymore because he ain't going anywhere. To answer WhatWhat in his question below:

    An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?

    No. In my years of watching ball, I don't recall one player being given this much royal treatment. Three coaches in five years is quite a dubious achievement. Let's go ahead and continue this debate. It keeps RR interesting. If anything, the Andrea debate is starting to separate conscious fans from the ones in denial. I mean, now there's talk of Biyombo picked at the fifth spot? Are we considering Kemba to complement Demar? Why are we drafting for one player then?
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  14. #5434
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every stor.
    Everyone has heard the "other side of the story" (rough timeline 2006-11)

    -he's a rookie
    -Smitch doesn't give him enough freedom
    -he doesn't speak english well
    -he shouldn't play C he should be a SF
    -he's not a small forward he's a PF
    -not his fault he was drafted #1
    -he's better at C and it takes longer to develop
    -he guesses "he's just lazy"
    -he's playing with Bosh
    -he needs more shots
    -he needs a defensive C
    -he needs a defensive SF
    -he needs a defensive SG
    -he needs a defensive PG
    -he needs a defensive minded coach
    -people are to hard on him and it hurts his feelings
    -he's the focus of the team
    -theres no one on the team to help him
    -he does the "hard stuff"
    -he has been given too much freedom

    did I miss anything?

    The "other side of the story" is excuse after excuse year after year.

    Simply put its time to move on.

  15. #5435
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    was just watching the interview thing on raptor tv or whatever its called now and BC and casey were both talking about how they were going to figure out a D that worked to bargs' favour. sigh. he's not going anywhere.
    @jerboat

  16. #5436
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

    1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

    2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

    If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.
    Well, first of all, I love how people will complain that someone is being rude...by being rude to them. It's like saying that you hate racists....and black people.

    Yes, I will admit that I tend to get a little passionate about certain topics, but as you haven't been around here, you might not understand just how many Bargnani excuses we have had to hear. There's a reason this thread has 3 and a half thousand comments. It's not because the guy doesn't stir debate.

    And while you did say there were two sides to the story, you have to realize that we've all heard the other side ad nauseum.

    I don't recall having a "run in" with you previously. I recall debating something with you, but that's a very big part of this site.
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Tim I'm new to the site and this is the second time I've had a run in with you. If you pull your nose out of the air and focus your attention on the posting you'll perhaps make sound attacks towards me rather then whats coming across as immature attempts at bullying lol.

    1) Our first debate on shot blocking was taken out of context as you wanted it swept under the rug and said it was essentially meaningless. I simply disagreed and thought IMO that it was usually a factor in the majority of successful defenses.

    2) It's clear your clearly not a Andrea fan/supporter based on your posts on every subject related to him and most that aren't. All I suggested is that not only is he to blame but also the franchise for a number of reasons. I just stated that IMO he wasn't spoon fed such a perfect situation as most of the Anti-Dre Mob believe he was.

    If you read the post again you'll see i'm not so much that i'm sticking up for him as much as being neutral and saying there are two sides to every story. Do I think they should keep him around? Yes I do unless a deal is on the table that makes them a better team. But that same philosophy would go for every player on the roster as we don't have a good enough one to label untouchable at this point.
    oh please that first paragraph made me want to throw up! And if you're going to be this butt hurt, after repeating the same flawed arguments (wrong position, bad coach, bosh) pls leave, no one will miss you.

  18. #5438
    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    was just watching the interview thing on raptor tv or whatever its called now and BC and casey were both talking about how they were going to figure out a D that worked to bargs' favour. sigh. he's not going anywhere.
    Have some faith my friend. All the comments when the season ended(by BC and Andrea himself) did nothing to help the Raptors out in a trade situation. I think management is just trying to do the right thing, hopefully resurrect some trade value, and ship him out in a beneficial deal.

    I really don't wanna hear any "oh, just give him til Christmas to learn the new defense" or "he's a scorer, if we didn't have him we wouldn't win any games" and yadda friggin yadda. I don't know if my basement walls can take any more holes in them!!
    Keep Calm & Chive On

  19. #5439
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    from everything i heard i'll be shocked if he's dealt. the dirk comparisons were a little nauseating.
    @jerboat

  20. #5440
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    from everything i heard i'll be shocked if he's dealt. the dirk comparisons were a little nauseating.
    I can't believe people still mention the two in the same breath.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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