View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5781
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    he sucked today against germany. he didn't even start for the italians
    If I'm not mistaken he didn't start against Serbia either.... does the Italian team know something the Raps organization doesn't? Like say, he'd be best used a 6th/7th man off the bench who got minutes dependent on match ups and how well he is playing that game?

    Ofcourse the Italian team probably doesn't have a $10 mil contract and 1st overrall selection they feel necessary to justify either, so maybe that doesn't cloud their judgement.

  2. #5782
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    If I'm not mistaken he didn't start against Serbia either.... does the Italian team know something the Raps organization doesn't? Like say, he'd be best used a 6th/7th man off the bench who got minutes dependent on match ups and how well he is playing that game?

    Ofcourse the Italian team probably doesn't have a $10 mil contract and 1st overrall selection they feel necessary to justify either, so maybe that doesn't cloud their judgement.
    Even though he didn't start, he played at the end of the game and played heavy minutes (second on the team with 30 minutes). So, starting is not because they know something or they think he's not a starter, it's just tactics.

    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    he sucked today against germany. he didn't even start for the italians
    As noted above, not starting didn't mean anything. He sucked on offense, but the whole team really played awful. That in spite of that it was a close game only means they threw away a great opportunity. Combined they went 6/25 from 3 (AB 1/5) and just kept shooting them, it was really annoying to see offense this bad (but I guess it's difficult to run a consistent offense when you have a lot of your offense running through someone like Belinelli, who logged the most minutes).

    But Bargnani played good post defense, so saying he sucked is pushing. Defense is what kept Italy in the game (and of course bad offensive execution by Germany as well).

  3. #5783
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Even though he didn't start, he played at the end of the game and played heavy minutes (second on the team with 30 minutes). So, starting is not because they know something or they think he's not a starter, it's just tactics.
    and I never stated otherwise.... and its exactly what the Raps have been lacking with him. Using him "tactically" rather than just guarantee him minutes and a starting job.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    and I never stated otherwise.... and its exactly what the Raps have been lacking with him. Using him "tactically" rather than just guarantee him minutes and a starting job.
    True, except that we did not really have an alternative at center to give the starting job. Having Ajinca going up against the starting bigs of other teams is not easy to defend as a coach. Otherwise Amir Johnson would have been the starting center if Bargnani was coming of the bench and we want him as PF as well (maybe with some minutes as center, preferably against the second unit).

    Btw, not starting for Italy is different from using him 'tactically' as a way not to guarantee him minutes and a starting job. It's just and only that, not starting, but being one of the main pieces, just as it was with Ginobili and the Spurs.
    Last edited by Soft Euro; Fri Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:37 PM.

  5. #5785
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    he sucked today against germany. he didn't even start for the italians
    He was never good matching up with Kaman or Dirk in his career.
    H2H vs. Kaman
    H2H vs. Dirk

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    True, except that we did not really have an alternative at center to give the starting job. Having Ajinca going up against the starting bigs of other teams is not easy to defend as a coach. Otherwise Amir Johnson would have been the starting center if Bargnani was coming of the bench and we want him as PF as well (maybe with some minutes as center, preferably against the second unit).
    yet Bargnani didn't often guard the opposing C anyways. He was (generally) guarding the weaker check, whether that be a PF or C.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    yet Bargnani didn't often guard the opposing C anyways. He was (generally) guarding the weaker check, whether that be a PF or C.
    I know that's a popular theory, and I'm not saying it's completely incorrect, but the theory has not been proven by a presentation of facts. (Btw: the way you formulate it, it's quite ambivalent as you say he didn't guard the opposing C often anyways followed by he was guarding the weaker big. If one is correct it follows that you are saying the C is usually the better player which I doubt)

    I did research the level of his opponents quite thoroughly and posted the results about a month ago (they can now be found in the 'everything bargnani' thread. On the basis of that it's hard to argue that he guarded the weaker player, as the level of his opponents was right around the average of the league. Until someone does a similar research on the opponents of the Raptors PF when Bargnani was on the floor as well this is not a proven theory or 'fact'. My vacation is over, so it's pretty low on my list activities.

  8. #5788
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    Im highly anticipating Tim W.'s reply on this thread, hahahaha

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im highly anticipating Tim W.'s reply on this thread, hahahaha
    This has already been discussed ad infinitum, so I doubt - even though it's Tim and it's about Bargnani - he'll feel the need to add much; it's an old debate.

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    "Bargs is GSP" - good ol' Multi

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    This has already been discussed ad infinitum, so I doubt - even though it's Tim and it's about Bargnani - he'll feel the need to add much; it's an old debate.
    hahahaha i guess you havent known Tim that long!

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sport...5.storygallery

    1 Dwight Howard
    2 Al Horford
    3 Al Jefferson
    4 Nene
    5 Joakim Noah
    6 Andrew Bynum
    7 Marc Gasol
    8 Andrew Bogut
    9 Andrea Bargnani
    10 Brook Lopez
    Not a bad list - except right now you probably can't give Bynum away with his contract and injury issues and Bogut may never be the same player ever again.
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Game was really close in the 4th quarter, Serbia's 18 point lead was down to four. Italy are going to have a tough time in their group, but Sebia is one of the best teams in the group. Gallinari played decently, although he didn't score much in the second half. Belinelli was poor, with his usual shot selection. Can't wait to see Valanciunas' first game now.
    Gallinari scored 10 points of the first quarter of his first game and has really struggled to hit a shot since then. - Just like most of his team mates - Italy is shooting 35.4% over 3 games.
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  14. #5794
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    This has already been discussed ad infinitum, so I doubt - even though it's Tim and it's about Bargnani - he'll feel the need to add much; it's an old debate.
    You're actually right......I only need to add an example of Bargnani defending the weaker player is him defending Noah instead of Boozer. Boozer is the better offensive player, yet they both have the same PER. Bargnani consistently defended the weaker offensive player, but that didn't mean that player wasn't productive. He was just the lesser of two evils.
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  15. #5795
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're actually right......I only need to add an example of Bargnani defending the weaker player is him defending Noah instead of Boozer. Boozer is the better offensive player, yet they both have the same PER. Bargnani consistently defended the weaker offensive player, but that didn't mean that player wasn't productive. He was just the lesser of two evils.
    But in that instance, thats a Center guarding a Center. Nothing suspect there.
    Further to that, one could argue that having Ed or Amir guard Boozer, rather than ANY center in the entire league is not a bad idea.
    Ed and Amir are probably quicker than any center in the league; and better defenders than most of the 'Starting Centers'. In my opinion.

    While this isn't a defense of Bargnani, I'm simply trying to say that moost of the time, the power forward IS the better offensive player on the team. And generally it makes sense to have another power forward guarding that player.

    If you go here, you can actually see from all NBA Teams Depth Charts, that except for Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut and Brook Lopez, ALL centers are inferior to their PF counterparts on the Offensive. Now that is of course my opinion, but I think its hard to find any other instances where the Starting Center is the better man on that side of the floor. And I'm almost positive Andrea was guarding Lopez and Bogut when our teams matched up. Not sure about Howard.

    So to say that the Majority of the time Andrea was matching up against the weaker man on 'O' is actually true ... because he was simply playing his Check being the Starting Center.
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    "Bargs is GSP" - good ol' Multi
    Bahahaha. Oh the memories.

    Wasn't King Bargs, 2Pac?
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  17. #5797
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But in that instance, thats a Center guarding a Center. Nothing suspect there.
    Further to that, one could argue that having Ed or Amir guard Boozer, rather than ANY center in the entire league is not a bad idea.
    Ed and Amir are probably quicker than any center in the league; and better defenders than most of the 'Starting Centers'. In my opinion.

    While this isn't a defense of Bargnani, I'm simply trying to say that moost of the time, the power forward IS the better offensive player on the team. And generally it makes sense to have another power forward guarding that player.

    If you go here, you can actually see from all NBA Teams Depth Charts, that except for Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut and Brook Lopez, ALL centers are inferior to their PF counterparts on the Offensive. Now that is of course my opinion, but I think its hard to find any other instances where the Starting Center is the better man on that side of the floor. And I'm almost positive Andrea was guarding Lopez and Bogut when our teams matched up. Not sure about Howard.

    So to say that the Majority of the time Andrea was matching up against the weaker man on 'O' is actually true ... because he was simply playing his Check being the Starting Center.
    And when the opposing center was the better player offensively, Bargnani would defend the PF, as was the case when Joey Dorsey started against Orlando because he had the strength to defend Howard, and when Amir and Davis tag teamed Brook Lopez, leaving Bargnani to mostly defend Kris Humphries.

    Bargnani only defended the center position when it was most convenient. Otherwise he defended the PF. It's further evidence that switching him to PF full time makes absolutely no sense, because he may end up having to defend better offensive players.
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  18. #5798
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And when the opposing center was the better player offensively, Bargnani would defend the PF
    Well I just proved with the Depth Charts that only on 3 teams is the Starting Center 'Better' than the Starting PF. (obviously objective, but give or take one or two) And as I said before, I recall him checking Bogut and Lopez throughout the season. Didn't catch any Orlando games this year.


    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Bargnani only defended the center position when it was most convenient. Otherwise he defended the PF. It's further evidence that switching him to PF full time makes absolutely no sense, because he may end up having to defend better offensive players.
    But you never bother to actually provide ANY evidence of this.

    As I just pointed out with the Depth charts, it would seldom be benefitial to have Bargnani guard the opposing PF, as they are generally (27 out of 30) the better of the 2 Big Men. So I'm not sure your point is being proven here.

    And again, I very clearly remember Bargnani guarding Lopez on a number of occasions, as I remember thinking to myself its the sorriest 7fter vs. 7fter 'battle of the boards' I'd ever seen.
    Last edited by Joey; Mon Sep 5th, 2011 at 01:33 AM.
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  19. #5799
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Well I just proved with the Depth Charts that only on 3 teams is the Starting Center 'Better' than the Starting PF. (obviously objective, but give or take one or two) And as I said before, I recall him checking Bogut and Lopez throughout the season. Didn't catch any Orlando games this year.




    But you never bother to actually provide ANY evidence of this.

    As I just pointed out with the Depth charts, it would seldom be benefitial to have Bargnani guard the opposing PF, as they are generally (27 out of 30) the better of the 2 Big Men. So I'm not sure your point is being proven here.

    And again, I very clearly remember Bargnani guarding Lopez on a number of occasions, as I remember thinking to myself its the sorriest 7fter vs. 7fter 'battle of the boards' I'd ever seen.
    Did you watch the games in London? Bargnani barely defended Lopez at all. It was almost exclusively Amir and Davis, so much so that even I thought Bargnani should defend him more, since he was the only one with the size to match up. And Bargnani didn't defend Bogut much, either (although a little more than Lopez). I'm not going on vague recollections, here. This was something I started to notice way back in November and made note of, because I thought it was an interesting fact. In fact, I was surprised when it wasn't really mentioned (although I did in my blog). I started to watch who Bargnani was defending because I wanted to see if the earlier cases were exceptions, but they weren't.

    As for the depth chart, it's not entirely accurate. Pachulia is listed as the starting center for the Hawks, yet only started 7 games. Anderson Varejao started 31 games for the Cavs, including two against the Raptors. DeMarcus Cousins is listed as the PF, when he started half the year at center, with Dalembert coming off the bench. And there are a number of others.

    My point is that Bargnani nearly always defended the weaker offensive player, and as you state, that was usually the center. So how is him moving to PF going to help him defensively?
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  20. #5800
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Did you watch the games in London? Bargnani barely defended Lopez at all. It was almost exclusively Amir and Davis, so much so that even I thought Bargnani should defend him more, since he was the only one with the size to match up.
    A quick count on synergy: Bargnani defended Lopez on 11 possessions in London, Johnson defended Lopez on 10 possessions, Davis defended Lopez on 7 possessions.

    And, again, like my earlier posts about this subject, this is just counting without any predetermined mindset. If the results were different I would post them. The stats just don't back you up on this Tim. Even if the count is a little off (I didn't view the possessions) it's certainly not the case that it was almost exclusively Amir and Davis. If you don't believe it, I'm willing to look at all the possessions and list them one by one.

    This theory is, with the examples given until now, just not based on the reality of the games. (Give it up Tim!)

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