Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[joey_hesketh]

My point is that Bargnani nearly always defended the weaker offensive player, and as you state, that was usually the center. So how is him moving to PF going to help him defensively?

It won't help. As I also stated, this was not meant as a defense of Bargnani.

What my point is, is that yes he mostly guarded the Center ... because he played Center.
Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF, but because it just makes sense to have the quicker, more mobile Power Forward (Ed and Amir) guard the opposing quicker, more mobile Power Forward.

I think what this should be about is, can you find another instance where another Teams Starting Center is assigned the task of Guarding the Opposing teams Power Forward every night? It just doesn't make sense unless you have a Dwight Howard on your team, and can say 'guard the best guy out there.'

You may be right about him guarding the Weaker Offensive Player Tim; but I think its more just how cookie crumbles and not by design.

[Tim W.]

It won't help. As I also stated, this was not meant as a defense of Bargnani.

What my point is, is that yes he usually guarded the Center ... because he played Center.
Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF, but because it just makes sense to have the quicker, more mobile Power Forward (Ed and Amir) guard the opposing quicker, more mobile Power Forward.

I think what this should be about is, can you find another instance where another Teams Starting Center is assigned the task of Guarding the Opposing teams Power Forward every night? It just doesn't make sense unless you have a Dwight Howard on your team, and can say 'guard the best guy out there.'

You may be right about him guarding the Weaker Offensive Player Tim; but I think its more just how cookie crumbles and not by design.

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that when the Raptors did face teams with good offensive centers, Bargnani would be tasked with defending the PF, if he was weaker offensively. The games in London against New Jersey are the perfect example. Amir and Davis, despite being undersized and without the necessary bulk, defended Lopez for the majority of the game. Against Orlando, in January, Dorsey started and defended Howard despite both Amir and Davis being available and playing. Bargnani did defend Howard for part of the game, but only when Dorsey was out, and there were still times that Amir defended Howard when Bargnani was on the floor.

There's just too much evidence that Bargnani was purposely put on the weaker offensive player, whether they were a center or PF.

And it's why moving him to PF isn't going to make a lick of difference and may, in fact, have a detrimental effect. I know you don't disagree with me here, but I just have to say it. It's a ridiculous notion that Bargnani won't be as much of a defensive liability at PF when there are FAR better PFs out there than centers.

[joey_hesketh]

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that when the Raptors did face teams with good offensive centers, Bargnani would be tasked with defending the PF, if he was weaker offensively. The games in London against New Jersey are the perfect example. Amir and Davis, despite being undersized and without the necessary bulk, defended Lopez for the majority of the game. Against Orlando, in January, Dorsey started and defended Howard despite both Amir and Davis being available and playing. Bargnani did defend Howard for part of the game, but only when Dorsey was out, and there were still times that Amir defended Howard when Bargnani was on the floor.

There's just too much evidence that Bargnani was purposely put on the weaker offensive player, whether they were a center or PF.

And it's why moving him to PF isn't going to make a lick of difference and may, in fact, have a detrimental effect. I know you don't disagree with me here, but I just have to say it. It's a ridiculous notion that Bargnani won't be as much of a defensive liability at PF when there are FAR better PFs out there than centers.

Too much evidence?? Come on, Tim. You're using, what, 3 games as your so called 'evidence'?

And I'm not arguing about him being more effective as a PF. I've already told you that. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that.

I'm debating your argument, that he always defends the weaker player, by design. I've heard you use it many times, and I've never once seen you back it up with reeal evidence. Despite the fact that more than a few people have asked for it, and shown evidence toward the opposite.

As I recall, Bargnani was banged up quite a bit by midseason and had missed a few games off and on at that point. (He only played 25 minutes in the game you speak of, compared to 39 minutes the previous game we played against Orlando.)
You keep pointing to London, and yet SoftEuro has already pointed out that Bargnani guarded Lopez more than any one individual. And thats only 2 games. We played the Nets 4 times, and again, I remember very clearly Bargnani checking Lopez MOST of the time.

Again, I'm NOT arguing that Bargnani playing PF would make him better on defense or whatever.
I'm simply saying that I'm not sure its fair to use the argument you do when there's really no hard evidence (despite what you say) to back it up.

[GarbageTime]

Too much evidence?? Come on, Tim. You're using, what, 3 games as your so called 'evidence'?

And I'm not arguing about him being more effective as a PF. I've already told you that. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that.

I'm debating your argument, that he always defends the weaker player, by design. I've heard you use it many times, and I've never once seen you back it up with reeal evidence. Despite the fact that more than a few people have asked for it, and shown evidence toward the opposite.

As I recall, Bargnani was banged up quite a bit by midseason and had missed a few games off and on at that point. (He only played 25 minutes in the game you speak of, compared to 39 minutes the previous game we played against Orlando.)
You keep pointing to London, and yet SoftEuro has already pointed out that Bargnani guarded Lopez more than any one individual. And thats only 2 games. We played the Nets 4 times, and again, I remember very clearly Bargnani checking Lopez MOST of the time.

Again, I'm NOT arguing that Bargnani playing PF would make him better on defense or whatever.
I'm simply saying that I'm not sure its fair to use the argument you do when there's really no hard evidence (despite what you say) to back it up.

11 possession for an entire game is what half a quarters worth of possessions? (ie. approx 90 possession for a game which is well below average for a team in a game), considering Bargnani played atleast 3 quarters worth of basketball I think thats evidence enough that he DIDN'T cover Lopez most of the time.

[GarbageTime]

Not because Jay didn't trust him guarding the PF,

didn't Jay say in the post season presser (when asked about Bargnani at the PF) that Bargnani should be a C on defense and not a PF?

[joey_hesketh]

11 possession for an entire game is what half a quarters worth of possessions? (ie. approx 90 possession for a game which is well below average for a team in a game), considering Bargnani played atleast 3 quarters worth of basketball I think thats evidence enough that he DIDN'T cover Lopez most of the time.

You think Lopez gets 90 Possessions a game? Come on man. Its obviously saying 11 of the times that Lopez was in possession of the ball.

And this is 2 games out of 82 that we are talking about.
That is not a basis for ANY argument. Let alone evidence.

didn't Jay say in the post season presser (when asked about Bargnani at the PF) that Bargnani should be a C on defense and not a PF?

Again, I'm not sure why that is even worth bringing up. He IS a center. Thus he SHOULD guard Centers.
Any other 7fter, 250lbs will have trouble keeping up with the Blake Griffins and Carlos Boozers and Chris Boshs of the League. ANY of them. I'm not sure why would we expect Bargnani too.

[Tim W.]

A quick count on synergy: Bargnani defended Lopez on 11 possessions in London, Johnson defended Lopez on 10 possessions, Davis defended Lopez on 7 possessions.

And, again, like my earlier posts about this subject, this is just counting without any predetermined mindset. If the results were different I would post them. The stats just don't back you up on this Tim. Even if the count is a little off (I didn't view the possessions) it's certainly not the case that it was almost exclusively Amir and Davis. If you don't believe it, I'm willing to look at all the possessions and list them one by one.

This theory is, with the examples given until now, just not based on the reality of the games. (Give it up Tim!)

I'm not sure how the numbers work against me. Johnson and Davis defended Lopez nearly a third of the possessions you listed, despite being undersized.

Besides, I really have no idea how they work out possessions. I mean, there were A LOT more offensive possessions than 28 in 2 games when Lopez was on the floor. Are they only counting the possessions when Lopez took a shot? Or simply had the ball? Just because Lopez doesn't get the ball doesn't mean that he was being defended by someone. How many minutes did each player defend Lopez? I'm guessing Bargnani got, at most, a third of the minutes and probably less.

[Tim W.]

Too much evidence?? Come on, Tim. You're using, what, 3 games as your so called 'evidence'?

And I'm not arguing about him being more effective as a PF. I've already told you that. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that.

I'm debating your argument, that he always defends the weaker player, by design. I've heard you use it many times, and I've never once seen you back it up with reeal evidence. Despite the fact that more than a few people have asked for it, and shown evidence toward the opposite.

As I recall, Bargnani was banged up quite a bit by midseason and had missed a few games off and on at that point. (He only played 25 minutes in the game you speak of, compared to 39 minutes the previous game we played against Orlando.)
You keep pointing to London, and yet SoftEuro has already pointed out that Bargnani guarded Lopez more than any one individual. And thats only 2 games. We played the Nets 4 times, and again, I remember very clearly Bargnani checking Lopez MOST of the time.

Again, I'm NOT arguing that Bargnani playing PF would make him better on defense or whatever.
I'm simply saying that I'm not sure its fair to use the argument you do when there's really no hard evidence (despite what you say) to back it up.

I understand what you are asking for. And since I don't have access to the stats you want, I can't give it to you. I can tell you that Bargnani being put on the weaker frontcourt player was something I noticed, and commented on all the way back in November. No offense, but I can't help it if no one else took notice of it.

The thing is, when I came to notice it, it was something I would look for every game. Bargnani, for the most part, would defend the weaker front court player. You may REMEMBER that Bargnani defended Lopez most of the time, but was it something that you actually noted at the time or was it simply something you recall now? There's a difference.

[joey_hesketh]

And if you go to 82games.com page for Bargnani, it actually shows him to be more effective as a PF than C. But as a Center, he is a better Rebounder.

I'm not arguing for or against him as a PF, I never wanted a part of that argument, but this is what the stats say.

[Tim W.]

You think Lopez gets 90 Possessions a game? Come on man. Its obviously saying 11 of the times that Lopez was in possession of the ball.

And this is 2 games out of 82 that we are talking about.
That is not a basis for ANY argument. Let alone evidence.

As I mentioned to Soft Euro, are the "possessions" simply the times when Lopez had the ball? Because there are a lot more defensive possessions that Lopez is on the court for, and someone is defending him. This is the problem with the numbers that he brought up. They are skewed. If Lopez gets the ball more when Bargnani is defending him (possibly BECAUSE Bargnani is defending him) he's going to get more possessions against Bargnani than against other defenders. It doesn't mean that Bargnani was defending him more.

[joey_hesketh]

I understand what you are asking for. And since I don't have access to the stats you want, I can't give it to you. I can tell you that Bargnani being put on the weaker frontcourt player was something I noticed, and commented on all the way back in November. No offense, but I can't help it if no one else took notice of it.

The thing is, when I came to notice it, it was something I would look for every game. Bargnani, for the most part, would defend the weaker front court player. You may REMEMBER that Bargnani defended Lopez most of the time, but was it something that you actually noted at the time or was it simply something you recall now? There's a difference.

I've already said that I noted it at the time, as both are known to be brutal rebounders and I was watching them battle for rebounds. Very clear in my memory. I laughed at their mutual lack of effort.

And I understand that it is difficult/impossible to find those stats, and all I'm saying is that I think you need to at least note that this is your own personal observation and not something that is statiscally evident.

And again, you may of course to right, but it should be noted that the weaker front court player, just so happened to be the Opposing Center, the position with which Bargnani was tasked to play. I see no reason why it would make sense to have him guard Blake Griffin instead of DeAndre Jordan. He's 7'-0", 250lbs.

[GarbageTime]

You think Lopez gets 90 Possessions a game? Come on man. Its obviously saying 11 of the times that Lopez was in possession of the ball.

And this is 2 games out of 82 that we are talking about.
That is not a basis for ANY argument. Let alone evidence.



Again, I'm not sure why that is even worth bringing up. He IS a center. Thus he SHOULD guard Centers.
Any other 7fter, 250lbs will have trouble keeping up with the Blake Griffins and Carlos Boozers and Chris Boshs of the League. ANY of them. I'm not sure why would we expect Bargnani too.

yeah I guess when I said "approx 90 possession for a game which is well below average for a team in a game" that was pretty desceptive.

if they are only talking about possession where Lopez had the ball/took a shot.... what about all the ones when he didn't. Its not hard to imagine Bargnani spending less time covering a man yet his man getting the ball more. Its what I would do if I was coach of the opposing team. Its what teams did this season aswell.

as for that being 2 out of 82 games... you are right, but what else do we have to work with? IF, as you said, that a PF a generally better offensively than Cs, and there are only 3 teams where the C is better than the PF, and a "C will often cover a C" and the debate is whether Bargnani covers the worse defender or not... should we not use what we have available?

[Prime]

lol:

[joey_hesketh]

That is a QUICK first step.
Looks like he's trimmed down a bit.

Actually looks like an athlete. haha

[Matt52]

The pump fake was on Noah.

[Tim W.]

This is what you call a tease, and why some people continue to think he can put it together. This type of play I find more frustrating to watch than anything, because it's the epitome of his entire career. He's always been able to do things like this.

[joey_hesketh]

Well depends what expectations this video will bring about...

I can't imagine a Pump fake/drive to the basket, will get any reasonable fan thinking his defense and rebouding have improved.
Which is where MOST are looking for him to 'put it together'.

For me, it just shows that he is in FAR better shape than he was at this time last year.
Which is certainly something positive.
If he shows up at Training Camp and is once again 10-15lbs overweight, then perhaps we can be concerned.

This is just nice to see one of our guys making a nice move.
No different than watching Demar jam on guys at Drew League in my opinion.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

This is what you call a tease, and why some people continue to think he can put it together. This type of play I find more frustrating to watch than anything, because it's the epitome of his entire career. He's always been able to do things like this.

and you say youre not a hater...hahaha

I really dont think Bargnani can do anything that will get Raptors fans on his side. He can block 50 shots and people will say, Oh, those players he blocked were weaker offensively, or he can score 200 pts and people will say, Oh, every player on the opposing team was sick with the flu. Everything he does will be tagged with a negative twist. Its called the Tim W. Mentality. hahaha.

[Prime]

The pump fake was on Noah.

The poster was made with Diaw

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

This is what you call a tease, and why some people continue to think he can put it together. This type of play I find more frustrating to watch than anything, because it's the epitome of his entire career. He's always been able to do things like this.

Im just playin Tim!