View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5861
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It seemed to me in that game, as well as numerous other ones, that Bargnani was purposely hidden on defense as much they could. And he still was a liability. Not a good sign.
    On a side note, if you are right and he was purposely hidden on occassion, we should be very glad we got rid of Triano because that is terrible coaching. Against the taller and stronger offensive players Bargnani matches up much better, certainly on post defense. Davis and Johnson have a lot of trouble covering these guys and while Johnson has better post defense stats (0,85 ppp), Davis is giving up a lot in the post (0,99 ppp compared to 0,89 by Bargnani). Having Bargnani match up with these players and allowing the others to be the help defender (considered by most to be much better help defenders) would be the far superior defensive strategy in my view.

  2. #5862
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    A couple of things:

    - As showed by Pruiti (and also supported with statistics by me) Bargnani's individual defense wasn't that bad at all. The problem was his team defense (according to Pruiti) and as far as I know you've agreed with this. So, isolating Bargnani would not be the best way for the opposite team to attack Bargnani's defensive weaknesses. In fact, they'd better isolate someone else because Bargnani would not provide the help needed (and as we all know from watching the Raptors help is needed a lot of times!). On the other hand if they isolate Bargnani, they would attack him at his 'best' defensive skills, while also allowing the better help defenders to play help defense.

    - If teams target Bargnani, wouldn't they constantly be looking to create a situation where there best frontcourt player matches up with Bargnani? Considering how bad our team defense and rotations are, they would succeed at this. If that were true, wouldn't mean that Bargnani was defending the best frontcourt player a lot of the time.

    - If teams target Bargnani wouldn't he be involved in more than average of the defensive plays? They would target him, so wouldn't he be more often the defensive player on the end of a possession? But if you look at the Synergy stats (and these are stats anyone can caculate using the publicly available stats on synergy) Bargnani was involved on 9,1 defensive possessions per 36 minutes, Davis on 8,7 and Johnson on 9,8.
    I think Bargnani is a decent defender in certain situations, against certain types of players, but I don't believe he's a good all around one on one defender. Not from what I've seen from him the last five years. He doesn't move his feet well, doesn't anticipate well, gives up position too easily and doesn't box out very well.

    As for isolating Bargnani, all I know is what I've seen and what I've seen was Bargnani obviously being isolated on defense on a number of occasions. It was not always for his man to go one on one, but for him to be the help man, as you suggest. Not all teams would do it and it wasn't all the time, but it happened enough that it became obvious what the plan was. I really have no idea whether Bargnani would be considered the defensive player at the end of the possession, but he's certainly involved.
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  3. #5863
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    On a side note, if you are right and he was purposely hidden on occassion, we should be very glad we got rid of Triano because that is terrible coaching. Against the taller and stronger offensive players Bargnani matches up much better, certainly on post defense. Davis and Johnson have a lot of trouble covering these guys and while Johnson has better post defense stats (0,85 ppp), Davis is giving up a lot in the post (0,99 ppp compared to 0,89 by Bargnani). Having Bargnani match up with these players and allowing the others to be the help defender (considered by most to be much better help defenders) would be the far superior defensive strategy in my view.
    I think that having Davis and Amir try and match up against Lopez was a bad idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Triano was terrible. He did what he could given the tools he had. For the most part, Bargnani didn't have to play the better offensive player and would have struggled mightily if he had to. There were countless games when Bargnani got killed by his man, one on one, so it's not as if sticking him on the good offensive front court player would have been a good strategy.
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  4. #5864
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I think that having Davis and Amir try and match up against Lopez was a bad idea, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Triano was terrible. He did what he could given the tools he had. For the most part, Bargnani didn't have to play the better offensive player and would have struggled mightily if he had to. There were countless games when Bargnani got killed by his man, one on one, so it's not as if sticking him on the good offensive front court player would have been a good strategy.
    I already adressed most points I don't agree with and you probably know I don't think Bargnani got killed more than let's say Davis who certainly has defensive talent but also had a lot of matchups he really struggled with.

    In my view, where we got really killed on the defensive end was in situations where we faced movement, be it by playermovement or ballmovement. When we had to close out on shooters as a result of this we did a terrible job; that just did not seem to be a part of the game on some (most?) nights. Bargnani is really bad at this (he was probably staying close to the rim so he could get the rebound!). When he has to do anything other than on ball defense, just like it is with rebounding, his anticipation is really terrible. But this defending when there was movement (and there needs to be more anticipation) was a weakness not just of him, but for the whole team. If there is one thing on the defensive end where Dallas was much better than us (and which constitues a large part of the possessions) that I'll be watching to see if Casey impacts our defense it is that.

  5. #5865
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    I think the Raps have been lacking a true defensive presence for so long, its only when they get a real defensive presence then they will see exactly what has been out of place on the current/recent roster.

    I'm not talking one or two games. I'm talking a season where teammates can get adjusted and be confident in one another and coaches don't need to hide players.

  6. #5866
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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Now this is a post I can (mostly) agree with! I find myself all the time seemingly defending Bargnani simply because I think he is being attacked a lot for bad reasons and with bad argumentation.

    It's absolutely not about numbers when they are used like this. Numbers can be extremely deceptive. For example, Zach Randolph is a very good rebounder. But a lot of these rebounds he gets by boxing out too much; it happens quite often that he should provide help defense, but stays with his man (keeps on boxing out while allowing someone a good opportunity to score) so he can get the rebound if there is a miss. This is detrimental to his team, but helps his rebounding total immensly. Also, with Randolph on the team 'stealing' rebounds, it's not that weird that Gasol only got 7 rebounds a game last season (he still should get more though if you look at his playoff stats).

    Looking more at the way Bargnani plays: I would, for instance, rightly or wrongly, like Bargnani to attempt a little less threes when i purely look at him as an individual. He attempted 3.4 threes a game last season. But with the lack of threepoint shooting in the starting lineup and the need to spread the floor, would it be really better for the team if he attempts less threes? Of course, shooting threes lowers his percentage (by about 2 percentage points).
    I never did respond to this, but as someone who is a vocal and well known critic of Bargnani, I'd like to think that my expectations of him are, at least, realistic. I don't expect him to become a completely different player, like only being happy with DeRozan if he shoots more than 40% from 3 and gets 5 apg. It's simply not going to happen because he's not that type of player.

    I actually don't mind Bargnani taking threes. I'd like to see him hit a higher percentage of them, but if he does then it's a great weapon. I'd much rather see him take threes than those long twos he took last season. Those are much less effective.

    And he's never going to be a stopper and great shotblocker. But he doesn't need to be to be effective. He simply needs to be a decent defender, both on the ball and off.

    And he's never going to be an above average rebounder, but lots of very good big men have been only fair rebounders.

    My problem with Bargnani is not that he isn't a great defender or rebounder. It's that I don't believe he is capable of even becoming a fair rebounder and defender.
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  7. #5867
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    Bargs is Tupac

  8. #5868
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Bargs is Tupac
    and Jarrett Jack is Too Short

  9. #5869
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I never did respond to this, but as someone who is a vocal and well known critic of Bargnani, I'd like to think that my expectations of him are, at least, realistic. I don't expect him to become a completely different player, like only being happy with DeRozan if he shoots more than 40% from 3 and gets 5 apg. It's simply not going to happen because he's not that type of player.

    I actually don't mind Bargnani taking threes. I'd like to see him hit a higher percentage of them, but if he does then it's a great weapon. I'd much rather see him take threes than those long twos he took last season. Those are much less effective.

    And he's never going to be a stopper and great shotblocker. But he doesn't need to be to be effective. He simply needs to be a decent defender, both on the ball and off.

    And he's never going to be an above average rebounder, but lots of very good big men have been only fair rebounders.

    My problem with Bargnani is not that he isn't a great defender or rebounder. It's that I don't believe he is capable of even becoming a fair rebounder and defender.
    Damn, for a minute there i thought you were having a moment Tim.

    You were about to reach out for Bargnani's hand in a friendly gesture and BOOM! you kick sand in his face again.

    Gotta love it! hahaha

    Tim: You dont have to be a great rebounder, just a fair one
    Bargnani: Ill keep that in mind
    Tim: You dont have to be a great defender, just a decent defender
    Bargnani: Hopefully i will improve
    Tim: Dont bother, you'll never amount to anything
    Bargnani: Ouch.

    hahahahaha

  10. #5870
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Bargs is Tupac
    We need Multipaul and DunkinDerozan back. hahaha

    And wheres Buddha?

  11. #5871
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    And wheres Buddha?
    There have been some sightings in comments sections on other sites. But he probably spends most of his time preparing the republican presidential campaign while stocking up on smilies in advance of a rr comeback.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Damn, for a minute there i thought you were having a moment Tim.

    You were about to reach out for Bargnani's hand in a friendly gesture and BOOM! you kick sand in his face again.

    Gotta love it! hahaha

    Tim: You dont have to be a great rebounder, just a fair one
    Bargnani: Ill keep that in mind
    Tim: You dont have to be a great defender, just a decent defender
    Bargnani: Hopefully i will improve
    Tim: Dont bother, you'll never amount to anything
    Bargnani: Ouch.

    hahahahaha
    Ya, it seems a little harsh I guess. What I was saying was that my expectations for Bargnani are not that great, despite what some people might say. The problem is that I've been watching him play for five years. I know him too well.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ya, it seems a little harsh I guess. What I was saying was that my expectations for Bargnani are not that great, despite what some people might say. The problem is that I've been watching him play for five years. I know him too well.
    haha did you really just say "I know him too well"???


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    Is it a "bannable" offense to embed that video on a basketball site? I'm not even going to ask how you found it.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Is it a "bannable" offense to embed that video on a basketball site? I'm not even going to ask how you found it.
    Its a classic! hahaha

  16. #5876
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Its a classic! hahaha
    This song is indeed a classic. Its from the musical Chess, which Mirvish will be bringing to Toronto this year. With no basketball in foreseeable future, I think it is good to know what the wife will be dragging us to on a Friday night.
    Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

  17. #5877
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    Quote RaptorDan wrote: View Post
    This song is indeed a classic. Its from the musical Chess, which Mirvish will be bringing to Toronto this year. With no basketball in foreseeable future, I think it is good to know what the wife will be dragging us to on a Friday night.
    You obviously don't know my wife.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    We need Multipaul and DunkinDerozan back. hahaha

    And wheres Buddha?
    i cant wait til the nba starts up again and the banned trolls all realize their IP addresses changed and they can make new accounts

    sure they dumb down conversations... but god damn do they make them hilarious

  19. #5879
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i cant wait til the nba starts up again and the banned trolls all realize their IP addresses changed and they can make new accounts

    sure they dumb down conversations... but god damn do they make them hilarious
    It's only funny for so long. Then it's just annoying. Like the guy who says the same joke over and over again because it got a laugh the first time.

    I'm all for entertaining, but the board has been SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better the last few months without the idiot brigade bringing down the level of conversation.
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  20. #5880
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    Ya, Tim and Multi never did see eye-to-eye ... hahaha

    And I do agree thats its nice not having to read/respond to stupid comments made for the sole purpose of getting a response. haha

    But Multi had his moments ... few and far between though.
    Last edited by Joey; Fri Sep 9th, 2011 at 05:52 PM.
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