Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[GarbageTime]

Hakeem has been retired for years and so has Jalen. There's really no room for improvement here

hold your horses here. How do we know that? I thought you said:

Not just because it happened in the past, that the exact same thing WILL happen in the future

so just because 40+ retired players in the past haven't improved in the NBA doesn't mean these guys won't. We don't know that the exact same thing will happen.


OR did you use experience and history to deduce that its not logical for a individual years into retirement to have a significant impact on the court?

Historically, statistically, he has shown improvement.

really? you want this to turn into a numbers game.... Stats and Bargnani do not mix....

TRB% 2006 -2011
9.2% -9.2 - 10 -10.4 - 8.6

TS% 2006 - 2011
.546% - .495 -.559 - .552 - .533

DRT 2006-2011 (lower the better)
106 -109 - 110 -113 -115

So if one is 'sad' to talk about his rebounding.... is it any less sad to use, old and inaccurate defense with Bargnani? (oh he has improved year over year is points and minutes.... but now we are getting into Bargnani fanboy territory if we are going to look at that an conclude he has improved other areas of his game.)

Im saying he MIGHT

Bargnani MIGHT become a better rebounder... thats hardly a revelation. I a pig MIGHT also learn to fly. Rabbits MIGHT stop breeding. Sarah Palin MIGHT be a genious. The question is what is more sensible/reasonable given what we know.... that a pig will fly or no? That rabbits will breed like.... well rabbits? That Sarah Palin has a touch of the Downs? That Bargnani might become a better rebounder or that he'll rebound at the rate he has for the past 5 years?

just because "historically" something is not your best product, doesnt mean you cant improve it.

so now right back to the beginning.... why not Hakeem, Joey, Rose, Ukic and POB?


How does the saying go

"You don't know where your going, until you know where you've been"

Worst part is we know where we've been and yet people don't want to believe that taking the same road will lead to the same destination.

[Tim W.]

That Sarah Palin has a touch of the Downs?

What a horrible thing to say! You've just insulted a huge group of people with that comment. How would you feel if someone compared Palin's intelligence level to you?

[GarbageTime]

What a horrible thing to say! You've just insulted a huge group of people with that comment. How would you feel if someone compared Palin's intelligence level to you?

you are right. I'm sorry for insulting all those with down syndrome. I will try never again to bring them down to her level.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

You can't foretell the future, but you can make a reasonable prediction if you have enough evidence. There is enough evidence to make a prediction that LeBron James will be one of the best players in the league next year. There is enough evidence to make a prediction that Greg Oden won't be healthy next season. There is enough evidence to support a prediction that Bargnani won't become even a decent rebounder or defender next season.

As for your Jordan analogy, you don't take into consideration other factors, such as age. Once a player, especially a SG, hits 30 their production tends to go down. Along the same lines, it's reasonable to predict that Steve Nash's production will decline.

And your Amare analogy doesn't take into consideration improvements in medical science, so you're not looking at all the evidence. Still, it was certainly a reasonable prediction to say that there was a good chance Amare would never get back to the production he did, pre-injury.

Your Raptors analogy doesn't make sense for several reasons. The first is that the franchise is constantly changing. Players, coaches and management have changed throughout the years. It's not reasonable to make a prediction when there are so many factors that continue to change. There's simply no baseline except for the team name and city they play in, neither of which affect the quality of the team.

On the matter of Bargnani, there IS a baseline. We've seen his development for 5 years. That's a long time in the NBA. The weaknesses which he has are not ones that players generally make big improvements on after so long in the NBA.

These are the factors:
- 5 years of play in the NBA (and several before that) that have shown an inherent inability to defend or rebound on a consistent basis.
- 5 years of development in which we have seen little to no improvement in these areas.
- 5 years of play that have indicated a somewhat lackadaisical attitude on the court.
- Overwhelming evidence that players don't tend to change core aspects of their game (such as desire) after a certain point.

Now Bargnani obviously COULD change, but there is simply too much evidence to support a prediction that he will, and in fact overwhelming evidence to support a prediction that he won't.

Based on the evidence, I can predict that if I go out and buy a lottery ticket, I won't win the jackpot. It doesn't mean there's not a chance I will. But it's a prediction based on reality.

Just want to go on record here by saying all i initially said was "Its sad its already past 3000 posts on this thread and people are still talking about Bargnani's rebounding and defense" and yes i said it annoys me to no end that people keep talking about the same things over and over and over again. And now im knee deep in and i cant get out coz i have to defend my counter posts. Just so people know i didnt say "Bargnani is a superstar and dominating basketball".

I wasnt making any predictions on Bargnani, what i said was he MAY or MAY NOT improve. In other words, there is a possibility that he could improve. And you admitted that, he can improve. Even if you say you believe he wont, fact of the matter is he COULD. And that was the basis of my argument all along.

You can predict Lebron is going to be one of the best players because Lebron is already one of the best players. Its already a known fact. But can you predict if Lebron will improve next season? He could, but you cant say for sure coz of Bosh, Wade and who knows if they get another superstar. His numbers could go down, but he's still one of the best players in the world. With Oden, its already been publicly stated that he will be ready to go next season. can you predict he wont be healthy? sure. but he could be as well. and thats my point. there's always a chance. fair or not.

You are right, there are just too many factors. And i think thats what some of the people here turn a blind eye to when it comes to Bargnani. He could turn around and say F**k BC for calling me out, im gonna prove him wrong. Or he might actually do good in Casey's new defensive scheme. Or the Raptors might finally give in and get him a good defensive coach. Or the Raps might get a defensive minded center and teaches Bargnani a thing or two about rebound and defense. The funny thing is, i never heard much in the media about Bargnani's defensive issues till this year, when it all exploded how bad defensively he is. Phd Steve even wrote this last year - http://sbrother.wordpress.com/2010/0...nsive-stopper/.

Im not sure where you can actually find out if there's a "baseline" for a big man. Are you implying that in the NBA there's a degree to which a player should be performing otherwise, theyre going to be fired? or waived? Is there a written policy stated in contracts?

My point is, we all know he's not the best rebounder or defender, no need to say it over, and over, and over again. People keep pointing out how bad he is in certain aspects, but neglect to give ideas on possible ways on how he can improve. People seem content to say well, he's bad, thats the way it is. But the way i look at it, the team that i follow, the raptors, possibly, will still have him on their roster next season, and who knows maybe the next as well. so instead of saying, well, this guy has no chance of improving, id rather think positively and say hopefully, he'll improve, for the sake of the team i follow. And there is a possible chance he can.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Yes, the discussion about Bargnani are often repetitive, but here you are continuing to do it.

And I injured my knee about a year ago (not operable and unfortunately chronic, due to my, er, age), but I've rested and strengthened it enough I'm hoping to return in the next couple of months. Who knows for how long.

I think im obliged to do so. I do have to defend my posts, otherwise, youll think youve changed my mind on things. hehehe.

I hope it heals soon. I broke my ankle 3 years ago and was never the same again. Then got fluid on the knee on the same leg i broke my ankle on. And same here, it was because of um, well, age. hehehe.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

But my point was that every summer we hear the same thing about Bargnani. About how he's going to be a better rebounder and defender and work harder. And he'll play well in short spurts in Europe. And we'll see a highlight or two. And then during the NBA season we see the same thing. This has happened for four year, now. Why should I be optimistic about his play THIS time? It's insanity, by Einstein's definition. Every season we see the same thing from Bargnani, but every season there are people that say, "THIS season will be different." That's insane.

By saying that he was teasing us, it's simply a statement based on experience.

Is it finding fault in Eddy Curry to believe that despite losing weight again, that it's doubtful he'll finally reach his potential? Or that this time probably won't be different for Lindsey Lohan? It's simply being realistic based on experience.

I dont think its insanity to expect different results from Bargnani season after season. I think thats the whole point of playing a new season, its because people really dont know what to expect, otherwise, they would just all concede to the lakers winning the championship, lebron averaging a triple double and durant getting the scoring title. I as a fan, hope the next season will be different from the prior one or else what would be the point of watching. And with this regard, i dont think Bargnani can be singled out. He has improved in some aspects, but we just dont pay to much attention to it because we are more focused on the aspects that he didnt. And again, its not an excuse to point out his scoring vs his defense and rebounding. but its also unfair to say that he hasnt improved, because he did improve parts of his game, not just all of it.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

hold your horses here. How do we know that? I thought you said:



so just because 40+ retired players in the past haven't improved in the NBA doesn't mean these guys won't. We don't know that the exact same thing will happen.


OR did you use experience and history to deduce that its not logical for a individual years into retirement to have a significant impact on the court?



really? you want this to turn into a numbers game.... Stats and Bargnani do not mix....

TRB% 2006 -2011
9.2% -9.2 - 10 -10.4 - 8.6

TS% 2006 - 2011
.546% - .495 -.559 - .552 - .533

DRT 2006-2011 (lower the better)
106 -109 - 110 -113 -115

So if one is 'sad' to talk about his rebounding.... is it any less sad to use, old and inaccurate defense with Bargnani? (oh he has improved year over year is points and minutes.... but now we are getting into Bargnani fanboy territory if we are going to look at that an conclude he has improved other areas of his game.)




Bargnani MIGHT become a better rebounder... thats hardly a revelation. I a pig MIGHT also learn to fly. Rabbits MIGHT stop breeding. Sarah Palin MIGHT be a genious. The question is what is more sensible/reasonable given what we know.... that a pig will fly or no? That rabbits will breed like.... well rabbits? That Sarah Palin has a touch of the Downs? That Bargnani might become a better rebounder or that he'll rebound at the rate he has for the past 5 years?



so now right back to the beginning.... why not Hakeem, Joey, Rose, Ukic and POB?


How does the saying go

"You don't know where your going, until you know where you've been"

Worst part is we know where we've been and yet people don't want to believe that taking the same road will lead to the same destination.

well those guys didnt retire before and came back to play. if they did and they showed tremendous or even partial improvement, then that would be "historical" fact, but they never retired before and came back. its a different scenario retiring and come back vs playing at the age of 40.

I was going to mention his slight improvement on points, assists, 3PTA and FT%. And i think its funny pointing out his improvements makes one a "fanboy", while pointing out his inadequacies makes one a "hater". Since ive done both, i guess im a "fanbhater". sounds nasty.

Im not really sure what youre trying to say by associating Bargnani's rebounding to pigs flying. One is real, and one is mythical. I leave it to your interpretation.

like i said in my previous post, if you apply that saying to Bargnani, why not apply it to the Raptors as well? I know youll agree with me when i say well, the raptors as a team can improve. Then why not give the same courtesy to Bargnani.

[Tim W.]

Just want to go on record here by saying all i initially said was "Its sad its already past 3000 posts on this thread and people are still talking about Bargnani's rebounding and defense" and yes i said it annoys me to no end that people keep talking about the same things over and over and over again. And now im knee deep in and i cant get out coz i have to defend my counter posts. Just so people know i didnt say "Bargnani is a superstar and dominating basketball".

I wasnt making any predictions on Bargnani, what i said was he MAY or MAY NOT improve. In other words, there is a possibility that he could improve. And you admitted that, he can improve. Even if you say you believe he wont, fact of the matter is he COULD. And that was the basis of my argument all along.

You can predict Lebron is going to be one of the best players because Lebron is already one of the best players. Its already a known fact. But can you predict if Lebron will improve next season? He could, but you cant say for sure coz of Bosh, Wade and who knows if they get another superstar. His numbers could go down, but he's still one of the best players in the world. With Oden, its already been publicly stated that he will be ready to go next season. can you predict he wont be healthy? sure. but he could be as well. and thats my point. there's always a chance. fair or not.

You are right, there are just too many factors. And i think thats what some of the people here turn a blind eye to when it comes to Bargnani. He could turn around and say F**k BC for calling me out, im gonna prove him wrong. Or he might actually do good in Casey's new defensive scheme. Or the Raptors might finally give in and get him a good defensive coach. Or the Raps might get a defensive minded center and teaches Bargnani a thing or two about rebound and defense. The funny thing is, i never heard much in the media about Bargnani's defensive issues till this year, when it all exploded how bad defensively he is. Phd Steve even wrote this last year - http://sbrother.wordpress.com/2010/0...nsive-stopper/.

Im not sure where you can actually find out if there's a "baseline" for a big man. Are you implying that in the NBA there's a degree to which a player should be performing otherwise, theyre going to be fired? or waived? Is there a written policy stated in contracts?

My point is, we all know he's not the best rebounder or defender, no need to say it over, and over, and over again. People keep pointing out how bad he is in certain aspects, but neglect to give ideas on possible ways on how he can improve. People seem content to say well, he's bad, thats the way it is. But the way i look at it, the team that i follow, the raptors, possibly, will still have him on their roster next season, and who knows maybe the next as well. so instead of saying, well, this guy has no chance of improving, id rather think positively and say hopefully, he'll improve, for the sake of the team i follow. And there is a possible chance he can.

I dont think its insanity to expect different results from Bargnani season after season. I think thats the whole point of playing a new season, its because people really dont know what to expect, otherwise, they would just all concede to the lakers winning the championship, lebron averaging a triple double and durant getting the scoring title. I as a fan, hope the next season will be different from the prior one or else what would be the point of watching. And with this regard, i dont think Bargnani can be singled out. He has improved in some aspects, but we just dont pay to much attention to it because we are more focused on the aspects that he didnt. And again, its not an excuse to point out his scoring vs his defense and rebounding. but its also unfair to say that he hasnt improved, because he did improve parts of his game, not just all of it.

First of all, I'm not sure why you claim you never heard anyone complain about Bargnani's defense until this year. I know I've been complaining about it for years. It's certainly come to a head this year. That could be because we've seen no improvement over the 5 years. In the first 2 or 3 years, people are willing to give players a pass on their defense because so few young players are good defenders right away. But after 5 years, Bargnani is still a terrible defender. And the problem with Bargnani is exactly Steve's article (I don't believe that's PhD Steve, by the way). Bargnani will have a decent or even good defensive game once in a while. And a lot of his defenders only remember those, even though they are few and far between.

And yes, we all know that he's a poor defender and rebounder. No one argues that. The argument lies with whether or not he can contribute to a contender despite those flaws. Some argue that if he played beside a defensive and shotblocking big man, then you could hide those flaws. The problem with that argument is that he played a good portion of the year beside Amir and Davis, two shotblocking and rebounding big men. Of course, the counter to this is that neither of them are centers. What that matters, I still haven't figured out.

As for ways for him to "improve", what exactly do you want us to say? You know how to improve rebounding? To rebound the goddamn ball. Ask any great rebounder in basketball and he'll tell you the same thing. In order to be a good rebounder, you've got to go after the ball. Bargnani certainly has the PHYSICAL ability to be a good rebounder. We've seen big rebounding games from him. But unfortunately those are few and far between.

And his defense? Well, the first thing a player has to have is good defensive instincts. You can't teach instincts. I've seen some guys who just learn the game become good defensive players almost immediately. And others who have been playing for years and never seem to get it. Bargnani seems to be in the latter category.

So Bargnani seems to lack the desire AND the instincts. And he hasn't improved in either area in five years. Yet you want everyone to remain optimistic that he'll improve? Based on what, exactly? If we'd SOME evidence over the years, then I could understand the basis of your argument. But you might as well hope that Reggie Evans comes back with the ability to score 15 ppg. Or Calderon to become an above average defender. Neither simply have shown any ability over the years to make one believe they can. And that's the same with Bargnani.

And I'd argue that people DO know what to expect. When you see a pattern, you know what to expect. I'd expect Miami, the Lakers, Dallas and Oklahoma to be contenders next year. I'd expect that the Raptors lose, at least, 50 games. I'd expect to see DeRozan continue to improve on shooting and ball handling. I expect to see both Amir and Davis continue to expand their range and ability to score inside (although Amir's injury probably will limit his improvements). I expect those things because I've seen it in the past and have reason to believe it will continue to happen. I know Amir, Davis and DeRozan all work incredibly hard on their games and have a great approach to the game.

And with Bargnani, we've seen a more rounded offensive game, but little else. In five years. Why should we expect THIS YEAR to be any different?

[GarbageTime]

I was going to break this all down but I'll keep it (not so) simple.

What could, might, can happen is infinite. Anything is possible. Nobody is saying otherwise.

But what one can use knowledge and information available to us to rationally narrow the scope of those infinite possibilities of what could happen. We can therefore come to a reasonable conclusion/expectations.

Lets take the theory of gravity. An apple fell on Newts head and he asked "why do apples keep doing that?" What he came up with was a theory that an invisible force is pulling everything towards earth. After 100s of years its still that, a theory. It can not be proven to 100% accuracy that it exists. Yet humans still walk to the store without fear of floating into outer space and apples keep falling down out of trees. We have built helicopters, planes, rockets, and hot air balloons that fly which, without that theory, would otherwise not have been possible. Not only that, they have expanded on that theory, and realized that the mass of an object effects the force of gravity. So when humans put a man on the moon, without even having been there before, they were able to act accordingly, get from one location to another and return.

So why did they do all that when there are infinite number of possibilities as to why an apple COULD have fallen from a tree. Because, over a period of time and a number of studies and experiences, it was a reasonable expectation. Because there is consistent information that if X happens, Y will happen to. But it is still not a fact. For all we know gravity could simply stop 'working' tomorrow. Yet here we are still standing on the Earth day after day, make plans to go somewhere, and expecting to pick up apples off the ground.

So how does this apply to bargnani? Bargnani has, year after year, been a consistently terrible rebounder. In fact one of the worst rebounding big men in the league. This has gone on for half a decade now, 378 games (including playoffs) spread out over 5 years. Playing with a number of different teammates, against a number of different opponents in a number different situations. While there is the odd game over that time period where his rebounding is actually 'good', there are just as many where it is attrocious. When all those 'good', 'bad' and 'common' rebounding experiences are calculated, one consistently gets a 'bad' rebounding number.


So here is some information for you. Rb%, Rbs per game, Rbs per 48


2006 - 07 9.2% 3.9 7.5 Rnk among Cs (90/93)
2007 - 08 9.2% 3.7 7.4 Rnk among Cs (88/93)
2008 - 09 10.0% 5.3 8.1 Rnk among Cs (93/98)
2009 - 10 10.4% 6.2 8.5 Rnk among Cs (79/88)
2010 - 11 8.6% 5.2 7.0 Rnk among Cs (86/90)


Even if Bargnani could improve his rebounding by 50% from this past year, he'd be averaging 7.7 rbs per game a 12.9 rb%, 10.5 rebounds per 48 (all well above his career averages and individual season averages). That would still only rank him tied for 63rd in per48 this year (almost exactly the same for Rb%). So even if he improves his rebounding at a tremendous rate, it will still be significantly below average (which is approx 16%, and approx 12.5 rbs per 48 ).


So yes Bargnani CAN or MIGHT improve his rebounding. But is it at all reasonable to think he will? Is it unreasonable to think that even if his rebounding improved it would still be terrible?

Even if you want to ignore all the numbers, what do you personally EXPECT will happen with his rebounding? Not what CAN or MIGHT happen. What do you expect to happen? I can tell you I expect him to be, again, one of the worst rebounders in the league. Just like I expect to step out of my house and not float into outerspace. Why? Because regardless of the infinite possibilities, it is most reasonable conclusion.

And do you know what happened to all the people who told Newts to stop talking about it? That he was ridiculous? That he was crazy? That he was 'sad' for talking about it so much? Me either... because history left them behind.

But if you want to ignore everything else you can believe me on one thing... there is nothing I want more than to sit under a Bargnani tree and not have a rebound fall on my head. Unfortunately, I expect gravity to screw me like it always does.

[Tim W.]

That was an awesome explanation, but I just want to say how great that little girl is from Aliens. I had no idea she invented gravity!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Thank you both, Tim W. and Garbagetime for the explanation. And i mean it, im not being sarcastic here.
But i cant change my outlook for the next or even the future seasons on Bargnani based on what happened in his past 5 seasons. One can sulk on how "mediocre" he was for the past 5 seasons, but i cant really conclude that he's a bad defender and rebounder up until his career is finished. Coz every season, he still has the chance to improve, no matter how much glimmer of a hope that is. Historically, yes, i admit, there isnt really much to look forward to, but, it has been mentioned before that he has the size and capabilities to be a decent, even good rebounder and defender. And the only two things that are stopping him is the drive (combat laziness) and skill. Drive, as ive said before, he can turn it around anytime he wants to. Its all up to him. But there is a fair chance that he can turn it around. Specially now with him getting the heat from almost everybody around him. Skill, again, as ive said before, the Raps might get him a defensive big man to train with him and that could definitely help him improve.

You both are certainly welcomed to close the door on his possible improvement on his inadequacies, but i for one still am hoping that he does improve. Insane? Nope. Optimist? Sure.

There's no point dwelling in the past. Doesnt matter what happened in the past, when a new day comes, its a chance to improve. Its just up to Bargnani if he does wake up and develops the desire to improve, but the bottomline is, he can and there's always a chance he might.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I was going to break this all down but I'll keep it (not so) simple.

What could, might, can happen is infinite. Anything is possible. Nobody is saying otherwise.

But what one can use knowledge and information available to us to rationally narrow the scope of those infinite possibilities of what could happen. We can therefore come to a reasonable conclusion/expectations.

Lets take the theory of gravity. An apple fell on Newts head and he asked "why do apples keep doing that?" What he came up with was a theory that an invisible force is pulling everything towards earth. After 100s of years its still that, a theory. It can not be proven to 100% accuracy that it exists. Yet humans still walk to the store without fear of floating into outer space and apples keep falling down out of trees. We have built helicopters, planes, rockets, and hot air balloons that fly which, without that theory, would otherwise not have been possible. Not only that, they have expanded on that theory, and realized that the mass of an object effects the force of gravity. So when humans put a man on the moon, without even having been there before, they were able to act accordingly, get from one location to another and return.

So why did they do all that when there are infinite number of possibilities as to why an apple COULD have fallen from a tree. Because, over a period of time and a number of studies and experiences, it was a reasonable expectation. Because there is consistent information that if X happens, Y will happen to. But it is still not a fact. For all we know gravity could simply stop 'working' tomorrow. Yet here we are still standing on the Earth day after day, make plans to go somewhere, and expecting to pick up apples off the ground.

So how does this apply to bargnani? Bargnani has, year after year, been a consistently terrible rebounder. In fact one of the worst rebounding big men in the league. This has gone on for half a decade now, 378 games (including playoffs) spread out over 5 years. Playing with a number of different teammates, against a number of different opponents in a number different situations. While there is the odd game over that time period where his rebounding is actually 'good', there are just as many where it is attrocious. When all those 'good', 'bad' and 'common' rebounding experiences are calculated, one consistently gets a 'bad' rebounding number.


So here is some information for you. Rb%, Rbs per game, Rbs per 48


2006 - 07 9.2% 3.9 7.5 Rnk among Cs (90/93)
2007 - 08 9.2% 3.7 7.4 Rnk among Cs (88/93)
2008 - 09 10.0% 5.3 8.1 Rnk among Cs (93/98)
2009 - 10 10.4% 6.2 8.5 Rnk among Cs (79/88)
2010 - 11 8.6% 5.2 7.0 Rnk among Cs (86/90)


Even if Bargnani could improve his rebounding by 50% from this past year, he'd be averaging 7.7 rbs per game a 12.9 rb%, 10.5 rebounds per 48 (all well above his career averages and individual season averages). That would still only rank him tied for 63rd in per48 this year (almost exactly the same for Rb%). So even if he improves his rebounding at a tremendous rate, it will still be significantly below average (which is approx 16%, and approx 12.5 rbs per 48 ).


So yes Bargnani CAN or MIGHT improve his rebounding. But is it at all reasonable to think he will? Is it unreasonable to think that even if his rebounding improved it would still be terrible?

Even if you want to ignore all the numbers, what do you personally EXPECT will happen with his rebounding? Not what CAN or MIGHT happen. What do you expect to happen? I can tell you I expect him to be, again, one of the worst rebounders in the league. Just like I expect to step out of my house and not float into outerspace. Why? Because regardless of the infinite possibilities, it is most reasonable conclusion.

And do you know what happened to all the people who told Newts to stop talking about it? That he was ridiculous? That he was crazy? That he was 'sad' for talking about it so much? Me either... because history left them behind.

But if you want to ignore everything else you can believe me on one thing... there is nothing I want more than to sit under a Bargnani tree and not have a rebound fall on my head. Unfortunately, I expect gravity to screw me like it always does.

It is an awesome explanation, im with Tim on this one.
But im sitting here, chuckling, and im not belittling you, but im extremely amused at the fact that you were able to construct a 772 word reply on a gravity-bargnani comparison. I would never have had the slightest inclination to even put the two words in the same sentence.

To tell you the truth, i dont think i understood it. i dont think im dumb, but gravity compared to Bargnani is just waaaaay beyond my reach.

I did understand the part where you said "Even if his rebounding improved by 50%....." and this proved my point. No matter what Bargnani does, people are still going to find fault in his game. I think Tim said before it doesnt even matter if he got 5 or 20 rebs, as long as people see the effort and the skill. So you guys need to talk about that and find out the consensus choice.

Fact of the matter is, some people think gravity is still a theory and some who are not as scientifically minded think its a fact. Sometimes, you just need to see things as plainly as possible. And thats the approach i use with Bargnani, plainly put, he MAY or MAY NOT improve. You can draw as many conclusions as you want, you can bring forth as many intelligent guesses as you want, you can predict, assume and outline the possible scenarios using your historical figures but at the end of the day, no one can really be a 100% sure of whats going to happen. And as "sad" as it is that some people are still drilling Bargnani for his past "mediocre" seasons, its also "sad" that some of us are still hoping that he will eventually turn his game around. But as the old adage goes, you have to let go of the past and look to the future.

[Matt52]

"You can be taught that," he said. "You can always be trained to be that defensive stopper. But more or less, if you don't want to do it, then you have a problem. But they're going to need him to do all the intangibles for them to get over the hump."

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story...scottie-pippen

Horace Grant on Boozer's lack of defensive prowess.

Does this apply to Bargnani, too?

[joey_hesketh]

Similar to the Derozan vs. Matthews thread a few days ago, ESPN is once again asking some fairly relevant questions (relevant being VERY questionable I guess).

We've all discussed this one before, so it was interesting to see what some 'experts' thought of it, anyway.

3. Who should be ranked higher: Andrea Bargnani or Brandon Roy?

Note: Bargnani was selected No. 1. overall in the 2006 draft; Roy was picked sixth.


J.A. Adande, ESPN.com: As wobbly as Roy's knees are, he showed he still has something left with that 18-point fourth quarter in Game 4 of the Dallas series. That's as many points as Bargnani has ever scored in a playoff game. Give me a guy who can take over in the postseason.

Jovan Buha, ClipperBlog: Bargnani. If this were any other time over the past few years, it'd be Roy by a landslide. But with his body failing him, he's now an inconsistent role player at best. For all his faults, Bargnani can put a ton of points up, and thus has slightly more value.

Danny Savitzky, Nets Are Scorching: Roy. It's not fair to just assume further degeneration of his knees and game alike, and Roy showed against the Mavericks that he can still take over a game. It's reasonable to expect he's put his time in this offseason trying to reshape his game to cope with his lost athleticism.

Kyle Weidie, Truth About It: Bargnani. In a contest of Roy's knee versus Bargnani's heart, you gotta go with the one you don't have to stand on. Sure, Andrea will never be more than a complementary piece, and Roy possesses the soul that makes champions; but go ask the actuary who he'd rank higher.

Royce Young, Daily Thunder: Bargnani. It's simple: He has two fully functional knees. Which is pretty important when it comes to playing basketball.

Source

Looks like majority would take Bargs over Roy.
And I have to agree. But it clearly comes to whether you'd rather have a player with No Heart or No Knees.
And in basketball knees are, unfortunately, slightly more valuable than heart.

[DG88]

Ya you take Bargnani in this case. Since Roy's knees are done he'll probably have to call it a career in 2 years. If Roy was the Roy of old it would be no contest between him and Bargnani.

[GarbageTime]

does no one find it funny that the argument is

Bargnani vs a gimp

and 2 still took the gimp?

[planetmars]

You also have to look at the past 5 years, and not just the current year. If we had drafted Roy, you would have a better dynamic duo with Bosh. The Raptors could have made more playoff visits, and Bosh may have decided to stay and not join the Heat. Bryan could have convinced other free agents to come and play with Roy and Bosh as well.

A lot could of changed for the better with Roy. Also if there is an amnesty rule for next season, then the Raptors could drop Roy and claim a tonne of cap space. A lot of good reasons I think to draft Roy over Bargnani even in hindsight.

[joey_hesketh]

The other things thats only slightly disheartening is that they've got Danilo Gallinari 13 spots higher than Bargnani ... ugh.

I think alot of this has to do with what team they are on.
Nic Batum at 70? Paleeease!!

[Tim W.]

does no one find it funny that the argument is

Bargnani vs a gimp

and 2 still took the gimp?

Ya, I noticed that,. too. It would be funnier if he wasn't still a Raptor.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Ya, I noticed that,. too. It would be funnier if he wasn't still a Raptor.

Got a question Tim, knowing what you know now, would you draft Roy ahead of Bargnani?