View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5961
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Got a question Tim, knowing what you know now, would you draft Roy ahead of Bargnani?
    The real question is when the season start in 2012 would you trade Bargnani for Roy ?

  2. #5962
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    knowing what you know now, would you draft Roy ahead of Bargnani?
    Tough to say ... I'm going to still say no.

    Quote Father rev wrote: View Post
    The real question is when the season start in 2012 would you trade Bargnani for Roy ?
    No way. At least we know Bargs will be able to give us 82 games, and is making a reasonable salary.
    Not sure either can be said about Roy.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  3. #5963
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Horace Grant on Boozer's lack of defensive prowess.

    Does this apply to Bargnani, too?
    Depend who you ask. hehehe.

  4. #5964
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Got a question Tim, knowing what you know now, would you draft Roy ahead of Bargnani?
    Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
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  5. #5965
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Horace Grant on Boozer's lack of defensive prowess.

    Does this apply to Bargnani, too?
    I disagree with him. You need good instincts to be a defensive stopper. You can train someone to be a decent defender, but not a stopper. You need a certain mentality and instincts to really be a stopper.
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  6. #5966
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Also if there is an amnesty rule for next season, then the Raptors could drop Roy and claim a tonne of cap space. A lot of good reasons I think to draft Roy over Bargnani even in hindsight.
    Valuing someone because of the large salary they have for you to cut with amnesty is craziness. Your first few points were valid, but now, because we have Bargnani rather than Roy we'll be able to trade him for a good draft pick and some role players. Who do you think would return us a higher draft pick in a trade today? Roy's knees for a potential lottery pick? No way! Bargnani somehow managed to be the better pick.
    Lamarcus Aldridge.. Different story

  7. #5967
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
    Hahaha Or this. I guess I didn't fully utilize the hindsight that was available to me.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

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    Quote RaptorFan (proud?..) wrote: View Post
    Lamarcus Aldridge.. Different story
    Indeed ... I was of the argument that drafting Aldridge was redundant as we already employed Bosh and were looking to keep him around ... but now I fully expect Aldridge to be ranked more than a few spots HIGHER than Bosh at this point, and absolutely see him as the far superior Power Foward.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  9. #5969
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Hahaha Or this. I guess I didn't fully utilize the hindsight that was available to me.
    If you've got the hindsight, then you've got the hindsight.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Indeed ... I was of the argument that drafting Aldridge was redundant as we already employed Bosh and were looking to keep him around ... but now I fully expect Aldridge to be ranked more than a few spots HIGHER than Bosh at this point, and absolutely see him as the far superior Power Foward.
    I never bought the argument that Aldridge would have been redundant. I thought Aldridge, while a little undersized, would have been fine at center playing beside Bosh in today's league. I also believed Aldridge was the best player available, so screw it whether or not he had too many similar skills as Bosh.
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    lol@ bargs being able to put up a ton of points.

    JR Smith can put up a ton of points; maybe Arenas still...but not Bargs. Give me a friggin break

  12. #5972
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I disagree with him. You need good instincts to be a defensive stopper. You can train someone to be a decent defender, but not a stopper. You need a certain mentality and instincts to really be a stopper.
    I agree.

    My post was a little tongue in cheek.

    Luckily all that is needed from Bargnani at this point is decent - expectations cannot get much lower for him on the other side of the ball.

  13. #5973
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
    Let's say Roy had the same career path but was drafted by Toronto, his 3rd year was actually his career year, 22pts, 4rebs and 4asts, how would you be able to justify trading a potential elite player? And on that 3rd year, Bosh's contract was up, would he have signed the extension if Roy was playing alongside him?? So many ifs!!!!! hahaha.

    In hindsight, if its only between Bargnani and Roy, i still wouldve drafted Bargnani. I dont think having Roy and Bosh wouldve made the Raptors a contender, and with Roy's knees and Bosh's departure, the Raps would have been left with nothing (considering they made the playoffs for those three years they had Bosh and Roy).

  14. #5974
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    No disrespect but as a 4-time NBA champion, All-Star, 4-time NBA ALL DEFENSIVE Second Team and ACC Player of the Year, i think he knows pretty much what he's talking about. He may have gone crazy at the tailend of his career, but that doesnt overshadow his achievements.

    Does it apply to Bargnani? Yes and No. Yes, coz ive always stood by the idea that he can be trained to become a good defender, coupled with extreme effort from him. may or may not become a good defender but there is a possibility. No, because he doesnt need to be a defensive stopper. I would like either JJ or Ed to be the defensive stoppers but all im wishing for with Bargnani is to be at least a good defender.

  15. #5975
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Let's say Roy had the same career path but was drafted by Toronto, his 3rd year was actually his career year, 22pts, 4rebs and 4asts, how would you be able to justify trading a potential elite player? And on that 3rd year, Bosh's contract was up, would he have signed the extension if Roy was playing alongside him?? So many ifs!!!!! hahaha.

    In hindsight, if its only between Bargnani and Roy, i still wouldve drafted Bargnani. I dont think having Roy and Bosh wouldve made the Raptors a contender, and with Roy's knees and Bosh's departure, the Raps would have been left with nothing (considering they made the playoffs for those three years they had Bosh and Roy).
    Obviously with hindsight, you know Roy's career is just about to come off the rails. When it does, then you look like a genius!

    I think with a healthy Roy, the Raptors might have been a contender. Maybe. Obviously with Roy on board, some of the moves Colangelo would have made would have been different. It's a massive `what if'.
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  16. #5976
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    No disrespect but as a 4-time NBA champion, All-Star, 4-time NBA ALL DEFENSIVE Second Team and ACC Player of the Year, i think he knows pretty much what he's talking about. He may have gone crazy at the tailend of his career, but that doesnt overshadow his achievements.

    Does it apply to Bargnani? Yes and No. Yes, coz ive always stood by the idea that he can be trained to become a good defender, coupled with extreme effort from him. may or may not become a good defender but there is a possibility. No, because he doesnt need to be a defensive stopper. I would like either JJ or Ed to be the defensive stoppers but all im wishing for with Bargnani is to be at least a good defender.
    Unfortunately the guys with all the talent sometimes are not the best judge. Grant probably thinks that anyone can be taught to play good defense, but this is coming from a player who always had good defensive instincts and a good work ethic. Those are two things that can't be taught.
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  17. #5977
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately the guys with all the talent sometimes are not the best judge. Grant probably thinks that anyone can be taught to play good defense, but this is coming from a player who always had good defensive instincts and a good work ethic. Those are two things that can't be taught.
    I dont fully disagree. Michael Jordan is arguably the best player who ever played basketball yet he doesnt hold the same regard when it comes to judging talent, otherwise, the Bobcats would be contenders now, but thats a different topic altogether.

    But i think credit needs to be given where credit is due. Grant knows what he's talking about. A good baker knows the right ingredients to make a good cake. A good chemist knows the right chemical combinations to make blue meth (sorry just finished an episode of breaking bad) So Grant being a winner and a bonafide defender, knows what it takes to make a good defensive stopper.

  18. #5978
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont fully disagree. Michael Jordan is arguably the best player who ever played basketball yet he doesnt hold the same regard when it comes to judging talent, otherwise, the Bobcats would be contenders now, but thats a different topic altogether.

    But i think credit needs to be given where credit is due. Grant knows what he's talking about. A good baker knows the right ingredients to make a good cake. A good chemist knows the right chemical combinations to make blue meth (sorry just finished an episode of breaking bad) So Grant being a winner and a bonafide defender, knows what it takes to make a good defensive stopper.
    Grant was a excellent player. It doesn't mean he knows how to make one. As far as I know, he's not a coach. How many players has he worked with? More importantly, how many poor defenders has he made into good ones? The issue, though, is not simply teaching a player skills. It's changing the core of a person. Defending is not simply a skill, but a mindset.

    I'll give myself as an example. For as long as I remember, when I've played I've always felt it almost a personal affront when I get scored on. I've killed myself running the floor trying to get back on defense when there's probably no chance I'll catch up to the person. Then there are the people who will get stripped of the ball and watch the player run in for a layup. I couldn't do that. And it has nothing to do with coaching or training. It's my personality. I never give up and would rather keep my opponent from scoring and only score 5 than score 30 and watch him score 25. Lots of guys I have played with are simply not like that.
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  19. #5979
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Grant was a excellent player. It doesn't mean he knows how to make one. As far as I know, he's not a coach. How many players has he worked with? More importantly, how many poor defenders has he made into good ones? The issue, though, is not simply teaching a player skills. It's changing the core of a person. Defending is not simply a skill, but a mindset.

    I'll give myself as an example. For as long as I remember, when I've played I've always felt it almost a personal affront when I get scored on. I've killed myself running the floor trying to get back on defense when there's probably no chance I'll catch up to the person. Then there are the people who will get stripped of the ball and watch the player run in for a layup. I couldn't do that. And it has nothing to do with coaching or training. It's my personality. I never give up and would rather keep my opponent from scoring and only score 5 than score 30 and watch him score 25. Lots of guys I have played with are simply not like that.
    I dont agree. He followed a certain routine and training pattern in his career as a basketball player that made him a good defender. Im pretty sure he remembers how the whole history of how he started playing basketball, how he turned out to be a solid defender and how he managed to play throughout his career and become a winner. I think he's simply talking from experience. Given he did have good defensive instincts, he still worked on his game and trained hard. And thats what he's implying. One can be a solid defender given the right training.

    I agree with this one. But look at it this way as well. If youre instinctively a good defender, like you guard somebody and youre always able to keep your man infront of you, but you hate defense and prefer to shoot the ball most of the time. does that make you a bad defender? just because you choose not to put effort on defense? just because you dont have the mindset and only skill, does that make you a bad defender? coz ive seen guys like this. ive played with guys like this. And in the same token, say a scrawny guy who is fast but really isnt too attentive on defense, but a coach pulls him aside and tells him, i want you to guard #3 (a guy who gets 30pts a night easy) stick to him like glue and do not make him shoot over you. every game they play this #3 he doesnt score more than 10. so are you going to label this guy a good defender because he's able to keep #3 to 10 points a game? when, prior to being given instructions, this guy couldnt guard squat?

    since we're sharing experiences, i thought id add mine. i was never a good defender, at least thats what i thought of myself when i started playing basketball. i was the other guy you were referring to. i used to watch other guys blow by me. but i had a good shot and i can make plays. i played four years of junior varsity. and was never cut from the team. my coaches never told me i improved on defense, but i think the solid training and coaching for 4 years improved my defense, otherwise, i wouldve been cut by year 2.

    the thing is, if defending in the NBA is more personality than skill, we'd all be making millions now. everyone has the drive, but only the ones who are physically able are recruited. Why? Coz training and coaching is available. I think we all know not all basketball players started out instinctively knowing basketball. A lot were "trained and coached" to be good if not the best ballplayers in the world, defense included.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Oct 4th, 2011 at 04:29 PM.

  20. #5980
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    Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.

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