Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Tim W.]

i release on the way up. I like the top release tho.
Have they ever tried organizing pickup games for RR members?
We always talk about basketball, we should play it!

Well, unless you want to head out to Vancouver, then I can't see getting together many many from this forum.

[joey_hesketh]

Have they ever tried organizing pickup games for RR members?
We always talk about basketball, we should play it!

I set up a thread talking about different places around the city to play.
I play with a bunch of guys every week from work, at Flemingdon Park.
Nice outdoor courts, always more than a few hoops available.

[golden]

Obviously Duncan and Robinson are/were head and shoulders above Bosh and Aldridge, but the analogy is sound. Duncan was considered a center coming out of college (and still is to many). There were actually some questions as whether they could play together.

In the NBA today, the Raptors could certainly have gotten away with playing Bosh and Aldridge together. There simply aren't a whole lot of true, dominant centers that would have caused problems for them, and they also has Nesterovic, who was a true center.

Yeah, some people missed the point on that analogy.

Just wanted to add that even if LA and CB didn't mesh together, one can use the incredible power of hindsight and trade Bosh for a nice return well before the 2010 free agent circus, knowing that LA is an all-star calibre replacement at PF. LOL.

[joey_hesketh]

Well if we're abusing hindsight like that, then personally I wouldn't even take LA, Bargs or Roy.

I'd take Rondo in heartbeat over any of them.

[golden]

Well if we're abusing hindsight like that, then personally I wouldn't even take LA, Bargs or Roy.

I'd take Rondo in heartbeat over any of them.

Or even better - we could have Rondo AND any of the above, since Rondo's pick was bought from PHX for a song.

Actually, with hindsight, I'm sure we could somehow find a way to assemble a starting lineup of: Dwight, Dirk, Lebron, Wade & Chris Paul. Ok, the gag's getting stale now.... move on.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Well, I'm probably not the guy to answer that. I was never a dick, to begin with and have been married for a very long time. I do know a lot of divorced couples, though.

And there's a difference between someone naturally maturing with age, and someone changing their personality. Someone who wasn't competitive isn't going to turn into someone who is really competitive. Someone who can't stop working and doing things isn't going to suddenly turn into a couch potato.

really?? all this time i thought you were at least younger than 30.

i stand corrected. one cannot change his entire personality. nobody can. but you can change one aspect of it, at a time. and that is possible. changing your personality towards basketball is definitely doable. some people use drugs or other bad things in life, but sometime in their lives they are able to change this aspect of their personality and become good people. And learning defense compared to shaking off drugs is definitely a lot easier thing to do. its not about maturity, i had a cousin who had a baby at 17 and she lived through it. Its not about age, its when youre hit with the consequence that you have to man up. And for Bargnani, this is his last straw to man up.

[Apollo]

By the way, I think the pairing of Bosh and Aldridge would fail miserably when the playoffs rolled around.

[Apollo]

Maturity can lead to a greater sense of accountability and a stronger work ethic.

[joey_hesketh]

By the way, I think the pairing of Bosh and Aldridge would fail miserably when the playoffs rolled around.

I don't think it would work even in the regular season.

Both are subpar defenders. Neither has the weight or strength to match up against many of the Bigger bodies in the league. And both require the ball down low to be effective. Remember the whole big deal Bosh made about not getting the ball where he needs it? You think he'd do any better with another guy who needs the ball in basically the same place?

Remember when they paired Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury together, saying they'd be like Walt Frazier and Earl "the Pearl" .. ya look how good that turned out.
Unless one half of the pairing is a standout at both ends (Tim Duncan) then a pairing like this just doesn't work.

[Tim W.]

really?? all this time i thought you were at least younger than 30.

i stand corrected. one cannot change his entire personality. nobody can. but you can change one aspect of it, at a time. and that is possible. changing your personality towards basketball is definitely doable. some people use drugs or other bad things in life, but sometime in their lives they are able to change this aspect of their personality and become good people. And learning defense compared to shaking off drugs is definitely a lot easier thing to do. its not about maturity, i had a cousin who had a baby at 17 and she lived through it. Its not about age, its when youre hit with the consequence that you have to man up. And for Bargnani, this is his last straw to man up.

I haven't been younger than 30 in a long time. Far too long, it seems.

As for Bargnani, to say he's got to man up is being way too hard on him. He's not Eddy Curry or even Turkoglu. He's not as lazy as some portray him, but what he doesn't seem to have is that drive that pushes some players to get the most out of their talent. I truly don't think it's laziness that is his biggest problem on defense. It's a combination of lack of instincts and lack of intensity (which is different from laziness). Both are incredibly difficult to change, especially for a 25 year old who's already been playing professionally for as long as he has.

[Tim W.]

Maturity can lead to a greater sense of accountability and a stronger work ethic.

I don't get the sense, though, that Bargnani is lacking maturity.

[Tim W.]

By the way, I think the pairing of Bosh and Aldridge would fail miserably when the playoffs rolled around.

Well, the pairing of Bosh and Bargnani didn't exactly light the playoffs on fire, did they?

I'm not saying with Aldridge the Raptors would have been a contender, but they would have been a better team, in my opinion.

[Tim W.]

I don't think it would work even in the regular season.

Both are subpar defenders. Neither has the weight or strength to match up against many of the Bigger bodies in the league. And both require the ball down low to be effective. Remember the whole big deal Bosh made about not getting the ball where he needs it? You think he'd do any better with another guy who needs the ball in basically the same place?

Remember when they paired Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury together, saying they'd be like Walt Frazier and Earl "the Pearl" .. ya look how good that turned out.
Unless one half of the pairing is a standout at both ends (Tim Duncan) then a pairing like this just doesn't work.

Steve Francis and Marbury didn't work out because their both low IQ players who dominate the ball and have no concept of how to make other players better.

As I said, Aldridge and Bosh would not have been a match made in heaven, but far better than Bosh and Bargnani. Aldridge is a better defender and rebounder than Bargnani and is nearly the scorer.

[heinz57]

i stand corrected. one cannot change his entire personality. nobody can. but you can change one aspect of it, at a time. and that is possible.

i beg to differ.

you can change your entire personality extremely quickly.

cocaine.

i've seen it turn many likeable people into complete and utter douchebags.

[joey_hesketh]

As I said, Aldridge and Bosh would not have been a match made in heaven, but far better than Bosh and Bargnani. Aldridge is a better defender and rebounder than Bargnani and is nearly the scorer.

LA may be a better defender than Bargs, but it is so marginal that the difference is invisible, if you ask me.
And yes he's a better rebounder than Bargs as well, but he's no Reggie Evans either. Would he be just as good with the better-Rebounding Bosh playing beside him?
Bosh has Career Rebounding numbers better than the BEST season Aldridge has ever had, and he's only a year older than him.

And once again, at least with Bargnani and Bosh on the floor, one could step out and allow the other more space to work inside.
Both Bosh and LA need the ball within 15ft of the net, to be effective. So neither of them is stepping out any further. Thus crouding the lane, and making each less effective.

But again, I think Rondo would have been the best pick out of any of them.

[joey_hesketh]

I don't get the sense, though, that Bargnani is lacking maturity.

Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.

Someone who wasn't competitive isn't going to turn into someone who is really competitive.

I do fully agree with this though.
I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.

[Tim W.]

LA may be a better defender than Bargs, but it is so marginal that the difference is invisible, if you ask me.
And yes he's a better rebounder than Bargs as well, but he's no Reggie Evans either. Would he be just as good with the better-Rebounding Bosh playing beside him?
Bosh has Career Rebounding numbers better than the BEST season Aldridge has ever had, and he's only a year older than him.

And once again, at least with Bargnani and Bosh on the floor, one could step out and allow the other more space to work inside.
Both Bosh and LA need the ball within 15ft of the net, to be effective. So neither of them is stepping out any further. Thus crouding the lane, and making each less effective.

But again, I think Rondo would have been the best pick out of any of them.

I would say Aldridge is a much better defender than Bargnani. Not that he's a stopper, but he's not going to actually HURT you on defense, like Bargnani does. And the thing about Aldridge, look what he and Portland did when Roy went out. I don't think you're giving him nearly enough credit. The guy is a borderline All-Star.

As for spacing, you're talking as if every successful team has one big man who can shoot the three. That's obviously no true at all. Besides, both Bosh and Aldridge can step out to 15 feet, which leaves a hell of a lot of room around the court. Neither are guys that need to work on one block or the other. I don't understand how you could argue that spacing would be bad with those two.

[Tim W.]

Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.


I do fully agree with this though.
I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.

I don't think the guy is immature. I just think he is who he is. He's easy going. That's his personality. That's probably great for someone to hang around, but probably not the best for a professional athlete. It doesn't make him immature. There have been countless players like that over the years. I remember when Dallas drafted Sam Perkins, they kept waiting for this more intense competitor to emerge and it never did because that simply wasn't him. At least with Perkins, though, his defense was always good, whereas things like his scoring would be the thing that fluctuated. With Bargnani it's the opposite.

[Tim W.]

And the thing about "seeing the competitive fire" in Bargnani, is that everyone can show glimpses of that. What separates people is the ability to do it consistently.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

i beg to differ.

you can change your entire personality extremely quickly.

cocaine.

i've seen it turn many likeable people into complete and utter douchebags.

Maybe Bargnani should start snorting, hehehe