Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I haven't been younger than 30 in a long time. Far too long, it seems.

As for Bargnani, to say he's got to man up is being way too hard on him. He's not Eddy Curry or even Turkoglu. He's not as lazy as some portray him, but what he doesn't seem to have is that drive that pushes some players to get the most out of their talent. I truly don't think it's laziness that is his biggest problem on defense. It's a combination of lack of instincts and lack of intensity (which is different from laziness). Both are incredibly difficult to change, especially for a 25 year old who's already been playing professionally for as long as he has.

I dont think its harsh to say he needs to man up, and by man up i mean take responsibility. He doesnt need to be a stopper, but just a consistently good defender as you always point out. He's not lazy overall, he's just lazy on the help D, and yes he also lacks a little bit of instinct and intensity, but like i always say, he can improve on this, not drastically at first, but, and i cant say this enough, with proper training and coaching he can eventually be a good defender. If Kobe was able to tweak his shot and Tiger Woods adjust his golf swing, both using the same shot pattern since they started playing, im pretty sure Bargnani can do the same with his defense. And i dont think it has anything to do with age.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I don't think the guy is immature. I just think he is who he is. He's easy going. That's his personality. That's probably great for someone to hang around, but probably not the best for a professional athlete. It doesn't make him immature. There have been countless players like that over the years. I remember when Dallas drafted Sam Perkins, they kept waiting for this more intense competitor to emerge and it never did because that simply wasn't him. At least with Perkins, though, his defense was always good, whereas things like his scoring would be the thing that fluctuated. With Bargnani it's the opposite.

I dont think he's immature either. We're looking at a guy who was treated like a basketball god in italy at a very young age, and from the stuff i read about him, he was trained to be a scorer rather than an all around good player. Thats why im always arguing the fact that he never was really opened to the idea of playing good D. And when the Raptors drafted him, it seemed to me that they wanted the same thing out of him, a scoring big. he needs to be pushed, and again, its not spoon feeding, its patterning the right type of training and coaching for a player's specific need. And really, you cant compare him to other players, that just because this player is this, then Bargnani should be this. Each player, to me, is unique. And every person adapts to different things differently.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Really? The way he pouts when he doesn't get the ball at the 3? Or shuts down completely if he doesn't get the ball? The way he makes excuses for himself? The way he admits to being lazy and does nothing about it? None of that speaks to a certain level of immaturity to you?

I think it really comes down to the fact the he is lazy, and to me, that speaks volumes about a persons maturity level.

I think Apollo is bang on. With maturity comes the ability to realize the magnitude of ones actions. Or inaction.
We've seen him grab tons of rebounds in games. It's not that he CAN'T do it, or is incapable of doing it. He's just lazy.


I do fully agree with this though.
I've seen the competitve fire in Bargs before.
Mostly just when the games actually mean something. Which hasn't been for a while.

I dont think thats immaturity, i think its a natural reaction to certain situations. Its not positive reaction, but its not immature. If he skips practice or games to stay home and play video games, that immature. If he doesnt rebound because he says other people are not doing it, thats immature. To the lazy part, i agree with. Lazy when it comes to help D or rebounding. But not overall lazy.

I dont agree with the competitive part.
No human being is uncompetitive. It just varies in each individual the intensity of competitiveness and what brings this out in them.

[GarbageTime]

I remember reading an article with one of the Raps training staff or coaches (can't remember who) about Julian Wright, at the end of the season. Basically the guy was saying Wright didn't have a very good jump shot because he had never needed to use it in college or highschool. He was always bigger, stronger and more athletic than the next guy, so he could just play around and above the rim (insert video of him missing a breakaway dunk here) Anyways, the guy was saying Wright needed to spend alot of time working on his shot, but didn't seem very confident that Wright would ever be an effective enough offensive player because of it.

I can see this applying to Andrea aswell. I imagine for most of his time playing ball, up to and including pro in Italy, he was bigger, faster and stronger than most of the guys he played with. His D and rebounding came from his superior size (and he was a very good size even at a young age when playing pro in europe). He also 'grew up' (for lack of another term) as a jump shooting big. Its what he knows because its what he's always known and was expected to do. Unless he ever decides to put in a concerted effort to change his habits, he will likely always revert to them.... much like we saw this past year. He needs to completely change his comfort zone and I for one am not convinced that he has the capacity to do that. Hell its not easy for any human to do that.

Quitting something is easy, not picking it up again is always the hard part.

[Soft Euro]

I remember reading an article with one of the Raps training staff or coaches (can't remember who) about Julian Wright, at the end of the season. Basically the guy was saying Wright didn't have a very good jump shot because he had never needed to use it in college or highschool. He was always bigger, stronger and more athletic than the next guy, so he could just play around and above the rim (insert video of him missing a breakaway dunk here) Anyways, the guy was saying Wright needed to spend alot of time working on his shot, but didn't seem very confident that Wright would ever be an effective enough offensive player because of it.

I saw or read something similar about Tyson Chandler once. It's one of the problems with the youth system as it is constructed now in America. Even teams with very young players are focused on winning (because this gets sponsorship deals for the coaches etc) instead of developing their skills.

But that's a different problem than the issue with Bargnani. His skills are not the biggest problem and the discussion here seems to revolve around his intensity. That is much more a personality issue which won't change (that much) anymore. In spite of the beliefs last century most of your personality is what you are born with and the influence of your environment in a very young age, that is, your very first years. After that, not much will change; you can learn stuff, but your natural personality is pretty much what it is. Bargnani won't turn all Kobe on us and get that killer attitude, he won't even get Reggie on us. He might be able to bring intensity for short periods of time (just like it is with most of us) but there is no way this will change. And frankly, because it is what it is and it won't change much, blaming him for not being intense doesn't make a lot of sense. Carter didn't have the intensity of Iverson who just kept attacking and attacking without caring about injuries (until everybody got fed up with it).

Skills can be learned, changing your personality is pretty much impossible other than learning how to deal with the negative sides of your personality.

Btw, I don't think there are that many players who have that mentality to be able to bring it every game on both sides of the court.

[GarbageTime]

I saw or read something similar about Tyson Chandler once. It's one of the problems with the youth system as it is constructed now in America. Even teams with very young players are focused on winning (because this gets sponsorship deals for the coaches etc) instead of developing their skills.

But that's a different problem than the issue with Bargnani. His skills are not the biggest problem and the discussion here seems to revolve around his intensity. That is much more a personality issue which won't change (that much) anymore. In spite of the beliefs last century most of your personality is what you are born with and the influence of your environment in a very young age, that is, your very first years. After that, not much will change; you can learn stuff, but your natural personality is pretty much what it is. Bargnani won't turn all Kobe on us and get that killer attitude, he won't even get Reggie on us. He might be able to bring intensity for short periods of time (just like it is with most of us) but there is no way this will change. And frankly, because it is what it is and it won't change much, blaming him for not being intense doesn't make a lot of sense. Carter didn't have the intensity of Iverson who just kept attacking and attacking without caring about injuries (until everybody got fed up with it).

Skills can be learned, changing your personality is pretty much impossible other than learning how to deal with the negative sides of your personality.

Btw, I don't think there are that many players who have that mentality to be able to bring it every game on both sides of the court.

Not blaming him... and I agree I doubt he will change.

And thats the exact reason why he is not worth the time or $ he consumes on this team.

[Soft Euro]

Not blaming him... and I agree I doubt he will change.

And thats the exact reason why he is not worth the time or $ he consumes on this team.

I disagree, but he should not be a first option and probably at most a shared second option. He should not be expected to lead a franchise; that's where it all goes wrong. But money-wise: remember, Rashard Lewis gets about double the pay Bargnani gets...

[Tim W.]

I dont think its harsh to say he needs to man up, and by man up i mean take responsibility. He doesnt need to be a stopper, but just a consistently good defender as you always point out. He's not lazy overall, he's just lazy on the help D, and yes he also lacks a little bit of instinct and intensity, but like i always say, he can improve on this, not drastically at first, but, and i cant say this enough, with proper training and coaching he can eventually be a good defender. If Kobe was able to tweak his shot and Tiger Woods adjust his golf swing, both using the same shot pattern since they started playing, im pretty sure Bargnani can do the same with his defense. And i dont think it has anything to do with age.

There's a massive difference between changing the mechanics of a shot or stroke and changing one's approach to the game. This isn't teaching Amir how expand his range and asking him to practice it through repetition. This is like asking Barbosa to suddenly become a PG. It's completely changing HOW he plays the game. Changing his instincts and mentality on the court. It's nearly impossible.

The problem with trying to change Bargnani's instincts is that he's already 25 years old. In basketball terms, that's close to middle age. Especially since he's been playing professionally since he was a teenager. The thing about instincts, is that you don't think about them. You react. It takes years to "get" instincts. This is why I liked Ed Davis. He had good instincts. Same with Valanciunas. Instincts are the hardest thing to change. And you're asking a 25 year old to change his after 5 years in the NBA.

[Tim W.]

I dont agree with the competitive part.
No human being is uncompetitive. It just varies in each individual the intensity of competitiveness and what brings this out in them.

My wife doesn't have a competitive bone in her body. She HATES competition. So I disagree.

[GarbageTime]

I disagree, but he should not be a first option and probably at most a shared second option. He should not be expected to lead a franchise; that's where it all goes wrong. But money-wise: remember, Rashard Lewis gets about double the pay Bargnani gets...

so that now makes Andrea's contract good?

If I have a choice between 2 fat chicks, is the 300lber now hot?

Hardly logical.

[Soft Euro]

so that now makes Andrea's contract good?

If I have a choice between 2 fat chicks, is the 300lber now hot?

Hardly logical.

For medical reasons I'd still have a preference. But what I meant to kinda imply, is that there are many, many contracts that can be considered not that good and there are many contracts as bad or a lot worse. Bargnani might be overpaid, but only by a few million, it's not that he makes 10 million too much.

[Tim W.]

I disagree, but he should not be a first option and probably at most a shared second option. He should not be expected to lead a franchise; that's where it all goes wrong. But money-wise: remember, Rashard Lewis gets about double the pay Bargnani gets...

So if one person killed a lot of people and another only killed a couple, does that make the second one excusable?

Rashard Lewis has one of the worst contracts in the NBA, so pointing to his contract as a way of showing how Bargnani's contract is alright doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If Bargnani has never shown the attitude and temperament that CHampionship players generally have, then I fail to understand why you'd keep him. Couple that with the fact that he's shown to be a LIABILITY the majority of time he's on the court, and I really don't see the point in trying to keep him. It's like trying to figure out how to make a boat made of stone float.

[Tim W.]

For medical reasons I'd still have a preference. But what I meant to kinda imply, is that there are many, many contracts that can be considered not that good and there are many contracts as bad or a lot worse. Bargnani might be overpaid, but only by a few million, it's not that he makes 10 million too much.

Bargnani's contract is okay right now, but it increases every year and he'll be making $12 million by the end of it. With a new CBA and possibly less money available for teams to spend, I'd say his contract might end up being bad in just a couple of years, right when the Raptors are going to need more money.

I'm not a proponent of cutting him, but I think he needs to go, both for on court reasons and his contract.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

My wife doesn't have a competitive bone in her body. She HATES competition. So I disagree.

hahaha
Being competitive is human nature.
im pretty sure at some point in your wife's life she either competed against her siblings for attention of their parents, or wanted to beat out other girls to get into the school play, or wanted to beat out 10 other applicants applying for the same job she wanted.

[Tim W.]

hahaha
Being competitive is human nature.
im pretty sure at some point in your wife's life she either competed against her siblings for attention of their parents, or wanted to beat out other girls to get into the school play, or wanted to beat out 10 other applicants applying for the same job she wanted.

She shies away from any competition, if she can. She will obviously do it if it's necessary, but she hates it. The fact that she hates it tells me she's not competitive. I, on the other hand, am on the other end of the spectrum.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

She shies away from any competition, if she can. She will obviously do it if it's necessary, but she hates it. The fact that she hates it tells me she's not competitive. I, on the other hand, am on the other end of the spectrum.

And the fact that you know she'll do it if it's necessary, tells you that dont mess with her coz she will compete with you if she has to! If your wife is faced with the everyday situation that she HAS to compete, will she? Of course. Coz she HAS to.

Maybe we can say the same for Bargnani? hehehe

[Tim W.]

And the fact that you know she'll do it if it's necessary, tells you that dont mess with her coz she will compete with you if she has to! If your wife is faced with the everyday situation that she HAS to compete, will she? Of course. Coz she HAS to.

Maybe we can say the same for Bargnani? hehehe

She will avoid competition whenever possible and will change her circumstances if faced with it regularly. Probably not the example you want to use to compare to Bargnani.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Sorry guys but we're talking about one aspect of Bargnani's basketball personality here. IMO, he's a decent one on one defender. He's inconsistent with help D, and thats what prevents him from being a good defender. We are not expecting him to change his whole basketball acumen, what he needs to work on is his help D acumen. Is that hard to change? I say no. Again, with the proper coaching and training. You hammer it into his head, "when caldy loses his man, you do this". This is what practice time is for. And i really dont buy the "instincts" are hard to change. Drug addicts have been addicts for years, they enter rehab for a year or two and theyre sober. A meat eater all his life decides to become a vegetarian and is able to change his diet in a year or two. Bargnani can surely learn how to defend instinctively with the proper coaching and training. There are 82 games in a season and at least 2 practice sessions in between games. Common now.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

She will avoid competition whenever possible and will change her circumstances if faced with it regularly. Probably not the example you want to use to compare to Bargnani.

I guess you missed my point.

So you mean to say, if your wife's boss comes to her and says, i need you to increase your quota by 2% everyday because Martha Stewart over there beats you everyday by 1%, she would do it the following day and then quit her job the next day so she can change the "circumstances"?

If yes then i did make a mistake on the comparison.

[Tim W.]

Sorry guys but we're talking about one aspect of Bargnani's basketball personality here. IMO, he's a decent one on one defender. He's inconsistent with help D, and thats what prevents him from being a good defender. We are not expecting him to change his whole basketball acumen, what he needs to work on is his help D acumen. Is that hard to change? I say no. Again, with the proper coaching and training. You hammer it into his head, "when caldy loses his man, you do this". This is what practice time is for. And i really dont buy the "instincts" are hard to change. Drug addicts have been addicts for years, they enter rehab for a year or two and theyre sober. A meat eater all his life decides to become a vegetarian and is able to change his diet in a year or two. Bargnani can surely learn how to defend instinctively with the proper coaching and training. There are 82 games in a season and at least 2 practice sessions in between games. Common now.

YOU think he's a decent one on one defender. I certainly don't. I believe he's a decent one on one defender in certain circumstances, but not overall. I've simply seen too much evidence to support my belief.

And you're not talking about instincts. You're talking about habits. And most drug addicts and meat eaters eventually return to their old ways. So maybe those aren't good examples for you to use.

The chance of Bargnani turning into a good defender are about as good as Amir turning into a 20 ppg scorer. Why not focus on turning Amir into a scorer? At least he hustles and works hard.