View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6041
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess you missed my point.

    So you mean to say, if your wife's boss comes to her and says, i need you to increase your quota by 2% everyday because Martha Stewart over there beats you everyday by 1%, she would do it the following day and then quit her job the next day so she can change the "circumstances"?

    If yes then i did make a mistake on the comparison.
    I didn't miss your point. You made a mistake in the comparison. She would leave her job under circumstances where she was asked to compete with others. Some people simply don't like competition.
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  2. #6042
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    Roy has the heart of lion but the wonkiest 27 year old knees going. So I like Bargnani in this one.......... if he only had a heart.

    I have been looking for Bargnani's player rank on ESPN. Did I miss it? Is he in the top 50?

  3. #6043
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    I have been looking for Bargnani's player rank on ESPN. Did I miss it? Is he in the top 50?
    I have a thread that sums up all of the Raptors in the ESPN Player rankings.

    Bargs was #81 I think..? Check the thread if you really want to know. haha
    And he was also apparently overrated according to the Experts.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    YOU think he's a decent one on one defender. I certainly don't. I believe he's a decent one on one defender in certain circumstances, but not overall. I've simply seen too much evidence to support my belief.

    And you're not talking about instincts. You're talking about habits. And most drug addicts and meat eaters eventually return to their old ways. So maybe those aren't good examples for you to use.

    The chance of Bargnani turning into a good defender are about as good as Amir turning into a 20 ppg scorer. Why not focus on turning Amir into a scorer? At least he hustles and works hard.
    If you really want to look at things the nitty gritty way then nobody is a good overall defender because you play defense according to the player you are guarding. So based on your reasoning, battier is not a good overall defender, coz DHoward will dunk on him every time he guards him. And Kobe will run circles around DHoward if they go one on one. So when you say "in certain circumstances" then it pretty much applies to every player. No one player can decently defend every other player that comes his way. Thats just impossible. Of course if Bargnani comes face to face with Joe Johnson, specially if theyre in the perimeter, he definitely cannot defend him squarely, but IMO, he can definitely decently defend big men down low.

    I was actually talking about personality. and not all, not even most of drug addicts and meat eaters "eventually" revert back to their old ways, at least not the ones i know. rehab prevents them from reverting. and proper training and coaching is what will prevent Bargnani from reverting back to his old ways if he choses to stick to improving his defense.

    I have no problem turning Amir into a 20 pt scorer. That would be awesome for the Raptors if they give him a shooting coach and make him chuck a million shots a day and guide him on how to do the proper release, balance and stance. I guess thats the difference in our analysis, i think of the glass half full, and you think of it half empty. Are you saying that Amir has no chance of becoming a 20pt scorer?

  5. #6045
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I didn't miss your point. You made a mistake in the comparison. She would leave her job under circumstances where she was asked to compete with others. Some people simply don't like competition.
    I guess you know your wife more than i do but i dont believe you. No woman, at least the ones i know, the one who raised me, and the other one who i met later in life then married, would never, ever come home and say to me, i quit my job coz theyre pushing me to compete.

    My apologies, i did make a mistake on the comparison.

  6. #6046
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If you really want to look at things the nitty gritty way then nobody is a good overall defender because you play defense according to the player you are guarding. So based on your reasoning, battier is not a good overall defender, coz DHoward will dunk on him every time he guards him. And Kobe will run circles around DHoward if they go one on one. So when you say "in certain circumstances" then it pretty much applies to every player. No one player can decently defend every other player that comes his way. Thats just impossible. Of course if Bargnani comes face to face with Joe Johnson, specially if theyre in the perimeter, he definitely cannot defend him squarely, but IMO, he can definitely decently defend big men down low.
    You misunderstand. Bargnani not being a good overall defender is not referring to him defending other positions. Bargnani can really only defend back to the basket, slow foot bigmen who move north-south. His greatest "strength" on defense is that he doesn't react well, so he doesn't fall for fakes. But if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick, then Bargnani will probably struggle defensively against you. If he has to anticipate, then he's screwed.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I was actually talking about personality. and not all, not even most of drug addicts and meat eaters "eventually" revert back to their old ways, at least not the ones i know. rehab prevents them from reverting. and proper training and coaching is what will prevent Bargnani from reverting back to his old ways if he choses to stick to improving his defense.
    While there are not concrete numbers about the percentage of addicts that relapse, it's somewhere between 75-95%. And if most meat eaters who tried to give up meat were successful there'd be a lot more vegetarians than there are.

    You're basically trying to turn Bargnani into something he's not on the minuscule chance it will work. The downside, of course, is that it completely kills his trade value if it doesn't work, which is the most likely scenario.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I have no problem turning Amir into a 20 pt scorer. That would be awesome for the Raptors if they give him a shooting coach and make him chuck a million shots a day and guide him on how to do the proper release, balance and stance. I guess thats the difference in our analysis, i think of the glass half full, and you think of it half empty. Are you saying that Amir has no chance of becoming a 20pt scorer?
    Why would you want to turn Amir into something he is clearly not? He's become a very valuable big man because of his ability to defend, rebound, hustle, score efficiently and be productive without needing the ball. By the time a player has reached the NBA (or at the very least, been in the league for a few years), changing what they do well is incredibly difficult. You can certainly pick up skills, like the ability to shoot the ball (which is probably one of the easiest skills to learn) but there's a bit difference between teaching them how to shoot and turning them into a scorer. Like good defenders, good scorers have a certain mindset. An instinct. As well as numerous other skills that take years to learn. It's like taking a guy off the street and saying you're going to turn him into a astrophysicist.

    And I'm neither a half-full or half-empty kind of person. I'm a realist. I've never been a this or that-type of person. I've never seen the world as black and white. I look at the circumstances and other evidence before reaching a conclusion.
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  7. #6047
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess you know your wife more than i do but i dont believe you. No woman, at least the ones i know, the one who raised me, and the other one who i met later in life then married, would never, ever come home and say to me, i quit my job coz theyre pushing me to compete.

    My apologies, i did make a mistake on the comparison.
    You seem to look at the world in black and white, as I alluded to above. If this happens then this will or will not happen. And there would only be this reason for it. If you're in a job where the circumstances make you feel uncomfortable and unhappy, why would you stay there? For her, it's a workplace where there is a lot of competition. For me, it's a workplace that becomes rigid and corporate. For other people it's something else. She likes to be in a job where her work speaks for itself. Not where there is pressure to compete with co-workers. She wants a supportive atmosphere, not a competitive one.
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  8. #6048
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    IMO we should try to trade Bargs before the deadline. I really dont want him to play PF and eat up Ed's development, and if we end up trading ED it would be really bad for us. What if he ends up being an all star PF? we would feel pretty stupid just giving him away like that. IMO the odd man out is Bargnani, a front court of Ed and JV is way more dangerous than Bargs and JV. I say we try and send him and a 2012 second round pick to the kings for jason thompson and francisco garcia. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

  9. #6049
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    IMO we should try to trade Bargs before the deadline. I really dont want him to play PF and eat up Ed's development, and if we end up trading ED it would be really bad for us. What if he ends up being an all star PF? we would feel pretty stupid just giving him away like that. IMO the odd man out is Bargnani, a front court of Ed and JV is way more dangerous than Bargs and JV. I say we try and send him and a 2012 second round pick to the kings for jason thompson and francisco garcia. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
    Just so you know, you have to save the trade first, then you can copy the link.

    I do agree with your sentiment, though.
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  10. #6050
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You seem to look at the world in black and white, as I alluded to above. If this happens then this will or will not happen. And there would only be this reason for it. If you're in a job where the circumstances make you feel uncomfortable and unhappy, why would you stay there? For her, it's a workplace where there is a lot of competition. For me, it's a workplace that becomes rigid and corporate. For other people it's something else. She likes to be in a job where her work speaks for itself. Not where there is pressure to compete with co-workers. She wants a supportive atmosphere, not a competitive one.
    sorry but i think ive taken this thing way overboard.
    As much as i would like to respond, i think this discussion is taking us farther from the real discussion which is Bargnani and the Raptors.
    My apologies.

  11. #6051
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You misunderstand. Bargnani not being a good overall defender is not referring to him defending other positions. Bargnani can really only defend back to the basket, slow foot bigmen who move north-south. His greatest "strength" on defense is that he doesn't react well, so he doesn't fall for fakes. But if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick, then Bargnani will probably struggle defensively against you. If he has to anticipate, then he's screwed.
    The way i understood "certain circumstances" is more than one situation, so i thought of different possibilities like a mismatch, or when an opponent (regardless of position) drives down the lane. But i guess you were referring to one specific circumstance, which is guarding a bigman on the low block/perimeter. The problem with this - "if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick" - is these players are pretty much unguardable, like Dwight Howard, Paul Gasol and Bargnani himself. These guys average over 20pts a game regardless who guards them. Howard has scored more the 20pts over Bargnani in more than one occassion, and the same can be said when Gasol has guarded Howard. IMO, Bargnani's biggest defensive weakness is his help defense. So i agree with you when you say he doesnt react well. But from the games ive seen and taking into consideration his agility as a bigman, i know he's a decent one on one defender.

    While there are not concrete numbers about the percentage of addicts that relapse, it's somewhere between 75-95%. And if most meat eaters who tried to give up meat were successful there'd be a lot more vegetarians than there are.
    I dont think wikianswers is a very reliable source. I tried looking for numbers too but nothing concrete, so i guess we can pretty much let this one go coz it will just turn into a your word vs my word type thing.

    You're basically trying to turn Bargnani into something he's not on the minuscule chance it will work. The downside, of course, is that it completely kills his trade value if it doesn't work, which is the most likely scenario.
    I think thats probably why we cant agree on things. Youre thinking that for Bargnani to be able to be a good defender, he has to change his ways, IMO, you dont need to change but rather add what is lacking. I think the issue is not that he's doing anything wrong, but rather he's not doing enough.

    Why would you want to turn Amir into something he is clearly not? He's become a very valuable big man because of his ability to defend, rebound, hustle, score efficiently and be productive without needing the ball. By the time a player has reached the NBA (or at the very least, been in the league for a few years), changing what they do well is incredibly difficult. You can certainly pick up skills, like the ability to shoot the ball (which is probably one of the easiest skills to learn) but there's a bit difference between teaching them how to shoot and turning them into a scorer. Like good defenders, good scorers have a certain mindset. An instinct. As well as numerous other skills that take years to learn. It's like taking a guy off the street and saying you're going to turn him into a astrophysicist.
    Why not? If he can contribute in more ways than one, then why not? Why would you limit a player's ability to do other things? Again, this is where we differ. I dont see this as a bad thing. Its not making Amir the #1 scoring option of the team, but rather giving him tools so he can further his game. Just because one player is already good at something, why not make him better in other aspects as well? You cant limit a player just because he's been doing the same thing for years. There's always room for growth and improvement.

    what if the guy you took off the street was an astronomer, would he have a good chance of being an astrophysicist? what im saying is youre talking about scoring like its foreign to Amir. Just because he is good at defense and hustle doesnt mean he doesnt know how to be a good scorer. Again, and i cant stress this enough, if Amir is given the proper training and coaching, i dont doubt he cant be a 20pt scorer at some point in his career.

    And I'm neither a half-full or half-empty kind of person. I'm a realist. I've never been a this or that-type of person. I've never seen the world as black and white. I look at the circumstances and other evidence before reaching a conclusion.
    That where we differ then, i see things in a realistic perspective but at the same time also consider the possibility that things may change, no matter what happened in the past.

  12. #6052
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    The way i understood "certain circumstances" is more than one situation, so i thought of different possibilities like a mismatch, or when an opponent (regardless of position) drives down the lane. But i guess you were referring to one specific circumstance, which is guarding a bigman on the low block/perimeter. The problem with this - "if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick" - is these players are pretty much unguardable, like Dwight Howard, Paul Gasol and Bargnani himself. These guys average over 20pts a game regardless who guards them. Howard has scored more the 20pts over Bargnani in more than one occassion, and the same can be said when Gasol has guarded Howard. IMO, Bargnani's biggest defensive weakness is his help defense. So i agree with you when you say he doesnt react well. But from the games ive seen and taking into consideration his agility as a bigman, i know he's a decent one on one defender.
    I don't mean that a player who is all those things gives Bargnani problems. I mean a player who is ANY of those things. And he's not a decent one on one player against most players in most circumstances.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont think wikianswers is a very reliable source. I tried looking for numbers too but nothing concrete, so i guess we can pretty much let this one go coz it will just turn into a your word vs my word type thing.
    Whether or not they are reliable is not the point. The point is that you said that the majority of addicts don't relapse, when that's obviously not true. I couldn't find one source that said it was below 75%. The actual percentage is not important.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think thats probably why we cant agree on things. Youre thinking that for Bargnani to be able to be a good defender, he has to change his ways, IMO, you dont need to change but rather add what is lacking. I think the issue is not that he's doing anything wrong, but rather he's not doing enough.
    If he wasn't doing anything wrong, then he wouldn't be as bad a defender as he is. Just watching him, I can see he's doing a lot of things wrong.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Why not? If he can contribute in more ways than one, then why not? Why would you limit a player's ability to do other things? Again, this is where we differ. I dont see this as a bad thing. Its not making Amir the #1 scoring option of the team, but rather giving him tools so he can further his game. Just because one player is already good at something, why not make him better in other aspects as well? You cant limit a player just because he's been doing the same thing for years. There's always room for growth and improvement.
    I'm not against giving players more tools. It makes them a better player. Amir already IS improving his ability to shoot and score, but trying to turn Amir into a SCORER is changing how he approaches the game. Right now, Amir doesn't focus on scoring. Plays aren't run for him. Any scoring he does is simply in the flow of the game. If you want him to score 20 ppg, you're completely changing his role on the team. Finding a valuable role is probably one of the hardest thing for an NBA player to do. I'm guessing the vast majority of players who don't stick in the NBA fail to do so because they can't find a valuable role. Amir has, and now you want to change that role.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    what if the guy you took off the street was an astronomer, would he have a good chance of being an astrophysicist? what im saying is youre talking about scoring like its foreign to Amir. Just because he is good at defense and hustle doesnt mean he doesnt know how to be a good scorer. Again, and i cant stress this enough, if Amir is given the proper training and coaching, i dont doubt he cant be a 20pt scorer at some point in his career.
    Scoring isn't foreign to Amir, but being a scorer is. Especially at the level of the NBA. There have been lots of players with more scoring ability than Amir who came into the NBA and couldn't score at nearly the same level. There's a massive difference between scoring 12 ppg without plays being run for you and scoring 20 ppg where you have to create shots and the defense focuses on you. Like Bargnani and his defense, we'd have seen a lot more from Amir if he had that ability.

    Players aren't blank slates that you can turn into anything. They have certain skills and instincts that can be honed, but at the level of the NBA, to think you can simply "create" a player is ridiculous.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    That where we differ then, i see things in a realistic perspective but at the same time also consider the possibility that things may change, no matter what happened in the past.
    I don't doubt things may change, but I'm realistic in realizing when there is a good chance and when there is very little chance. You can't be a realist if you ignore past evidence, which you seem to do.
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  13. #6053
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I don't mean that a player who is all those things gives Bargnani problems. I mean a player who is ANY of those things. And he's not a decent one on one player against most players in most circumstances.
    I didnt see the words ANY and ONLY in the statement you made. It seemed like you were referring to the 4 skills as all-encompassing.

    Whether or not they are reliable is not the point. The point is that you said that the majority of addicts don't relapse, when that's obviously not true. I couldn't find one source that said it was below 75%. The actual percentage is not important.
    Actually i didnt say that, i said they dont revert back to their old ways. And actually, you were the one who initially said revert, then changed it to relapse. Revert is permanently going back to your old ways, relapse is more like a bump on the road to recovery. Like when an alcoholic is off the wagon coz he had a drink or two, but goes back on the wagon soon after.

    If he wasn't doing anything wrong, then he wouldn't be as bad a defender as he is. Just watching him, I can see he's doing a lot of things wrong.
    If he's fronting his man down-low when he knows his man can catch the ball 2 feet away from the basket then IMO, thats doing something wrong. If he goes for the steal instead of putting a body on his man on the low-block then IMO, thats doing something wrong. If an opponent looses his man and hits the lane, then Bargnani should provide help D. He needs to "add" this to his defense.

    I'm not against giving players more tools. It makes them a better player. Amir already IS improving his ability to shoot and score, but trying to turn Amir into a SCORER is changing how he approaches the game. Right now, Amir doesn't focus on scoring. Plays aren't run for him. Any scoring he does is simply in the flow of the game. If you want him to score 20 ppg, you're completely changing his role on the team. Finding a valuable role is probably one of the hardest thing for an NBA player to do. I'm guessing the vast majority of players who don't stick in the NBA fail to do so because they can't find a valuable role. Amir has, and now you want to change that role.
    Again, not trying to change Amir, but rather adding to what he already has. What would be the downside if you ran plays for a guy like Amir? Do you mean to say that if scoring becomes one of his strengths (and i dont mean it to be his only focus, but rather a part of his game) it will become detrimental to the team? That if he becomes a 20pt scorer, it will be bad for the Raptors? I dont think so. Sure there are role players on every team, but it doesnt mean these role players cant eventually step out and become big name players. Besides, there were times in Amir's career where he averaged 20pts per game or at least close to it, so being a "scorer" wont be too far off from him. But lets not specifically discuss Amir. What im saying is turning a player into a scorer is not literally getting him to focus on just scoring. You simply add "scoring" to his repertoire.

    Scoring isn't foreign to Amir, but being a scorer is. Especially at the level of the NBA. There have been lots of players with more scoring ability than Amir who came into the NBA and couldn't score at nearly the same level. There's a massive difference between scoring 12 ppg without plays being run for you and scoring 20 ppg where you have to create shots and the defense focuses on you. Like Bargnani and his defense, we'd have seen a lot more from Amir if he had that ability.
    Same reasoning as above. I dont see negative impact, i see growth and further contribution to the team.

    Players aren't blank slates that you can turn into anything. They have certain skills and instincts that can be honed, but at the level of the NBA, to think you can simply "create" a player is ridiculous.
    Again, i didnt say "create", i said ADD. I dont think its proper to box players in certain skill sets, if they choose to stay that way then so be it, but if they want to add a certain basketball skill to their game, then im all for it.

    I don't doubt things may change, but I'm realistic in realizing when there is a good chance and when there is very little chance. You can't be a realist if you ignore past evidence, which you seem to do.
    Realist - a person who accepts the world as it LITERALLY is and deals with it accordingly. A realist deals with the present, what is current, the present state. Im that, plus i dont dwell in the past.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Oct 12th, 2011 at 04:25 PM.

  14. #6054
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I didnt see the words ANY and ONLY in the statement you made. It seemed like you were referring to the 4 skills as all-encompassing.
    "But if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick..."

    It was easy to miss and misunderstand, but I meant that a player who can do any of those things. Some people have defended Bargnani's one on one defense, but he constantly allowed his man to produce well above his average. His opponent nearly always had good games against him.

    And one area which isn't discussed much is that defense is not only preventing a player from scoring, but from being productive at all, which includes preventing your opponent from getting rebounds. Bargnani is very poor at this. He doesn't box out well, often loses his man when the shot goes up, and can be easily beaten to the boards by his man. To me, this is the best evidence that Bargnani can't become a good defender. He simply doesn't have the tools to even keep his man off the board.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Actually i didnt say that, i said they dont revert back to their old ways. And actually, you were the one who initially said revert, then changed it to relapse. Revert is permanently going back to your old ways, relapse is more like a bump on the road to recovery. Like when an alcoholic is off the wagon coz he had a drink or two, but goes back on the wagon soon after.
    I think we're arguing semantics, here. My problem with Bargnani is that he's a perfect case to relapse/revert. He's 25 years old, has been in the league 5 years, already, and has never been the hardest worker in that time.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If he's fronting his man down-low when he knows his man can catch the ball 2 feet away from the basket then IMO, thats doing something wrong. If he goes for the steal instead of putting a body on his man on the low-block then IMO, thats doing something wrong. If an opponent looses his man and hits the lane, then Bargnani should provide help D. He needs to "add" this to his defense.
    Well, if I had any hope of becoming a pro baller, in my youth, I needed to add skills, athleticism and a few more inches. Some things are easier to add than others.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Again, not trying to change Amir, but rather adding to what he already has. What would be the downside if you ran plays for a guy like Amir? Do you mean to say that if scoring becomes one of his strengths (and i dont mean it to be his only focus, but rather a part of his game) it will become detrimental to the team? That if he becomes a 20pt scorer, it will be bad for the Raptors? I dont think so. Sure there are role players on every team, but it doesnt mean these role players cant eventually step out and become big name players. Besides, there were times in Amir's career where he averaged 20pts per game or at least close to it, so being a "scorer" wont be too far off from him. But lets not specifically discuss Amir. What im saying is turning a player into a scorer is not literally getting him to focus on just scoring. You simply add "scoring" to his repertoire.
    Adding scoring to a player's repertoire and making them a scorer are two different things. And someone who scores 20 ppg is a scorer. And as I said, it's a massively different mindset. Per 36 minutes, Amir averaged around 13 ppg for the Raptors the last couple of seasons. I think if Amir were able to up that to 16 ppg, that would be fantastic. It would require him to become a better scorer than he is right now. Right now, you can't give him the ball and ask him to score. He's simply not good enough to be able to do that. But if he continues to work on his jumpshot and improves his post skills, I think being a 16 ppg scorer is definitely achievable.

    The thing is, while it's only four more points per game, it's a big difference, especially when teams start focusing on you defensively. Right now, it would be pretty easy to shut Amir out if a team really wanted to. Send a double team at him and there's not much he can do. But he's rarely double teamed because he's not enough of a scoring threat. As soon as he becomes a scoring threat then things change.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Same reasoning as above. I dont see negative impact, i see growth and further contribution to the team.
    If he becomes a 20 ppg scorer with the same productivity in the rest of his game as he has now, then he'd be a perennial All-Star. And I don't see that happening. Something will probably suffer to get him to become a 20 ppg scorer.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Again, i didnt say "create", i said ADD. I dont think its proper to box players in certain skill sets, if they choose to stay that way then so be it, but if they want to add a certain basketball skill to their game, then im all for it.
    But Amir simply doesn't have a lot of scoring skills. He hasn't had to deal with double teams since high school, and simply doesn't have the skills to create his own shot very well. The points he gets are usually from pick and rolls, offensive boards or being at the right place at the right time. Give him the ball and asking him to score is something that IS foreign to him.

    It's like drafting a SG and asking him to become a PG. Technically, you just have to "add" skills, but it's really not as simple as that.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Realist - a person who accepts the world as it LITERALLY is and deals with it accordingly. A realist deals with the present, what is current, the present state. Im that, plus i dont dwell in the past.
    Ignoring the past isn't realistic when it gives you a good indication of what the future may be like. If you've been ripped off many times in the past by door to door salesmen, is it really wise to keep trusting them?

    Besides, presently Bargnani is a poor defender. If you deal with the present, then what makes you think the present will change for the better?
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    "But if you can face up, have good footwork, can move east-west and/or are quick..."
    It was easy to miss and misunderstand, but I meant that a player who can do any of those things. Some people have defended Bargnani's one on one defense, but he constantly allowed his man to produce well above his average. His opponent nearly always had good games against him.
    I dont agree with "constantly", sometimes perhaps, but not constantly. The thing is, if you look at Howard's, Bogut's and Gasol's numbers, theyve all played above their average against each other. Like what i said before, the skills you mentioned are possessed by the top scoring big men in the league, regardless who's guarding them, they still get their numbers night in and night out.
    And one area which isn't discussed much is that defense is not only preventing a player from scoring, but from being productive at all, which includes preventing your opponent from getting rebounds. Bargnani is very poor at this. He doesn't box out well, often loses his man when the shot goes up, and can be easily beaten to the boards by his man. To me, this is the best evidence that Bargnani can't become a good defender. He simply doesn't have the tools to even keep his man off the board.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly, but it wasnt the focus of our discussion flow. As far as i know, i was commenting on the on-ball defense. But yes i agree, his rebounding is not good, but again proper coaching and training should help him improve on his rebounding skills.
    I think we're arguing semantics, here. My problem with Bargnani is that he's a perfect case to relapse/revert. He's 25 years old, has been in the league 5 years, already, and has never been the hardest worker in that time.
    Relapse yes, revert no. I think its just natural that even if he improves his defensive skills, from time to time, he will have brainfarts. I think thats just ordinary. Doesnt mean that he improves you expect him to be able to do things at a 100%, all the time. I mean i would like to, but thats just expecting way too much, as you said, from a guy who has never been the hardest worker. What i expect is for him to realize such mistakes and later on, react differently to the situation. I think thats how you develop instincts, you go through it, realize the mistake and hopefully correct it later on.
    Well, if I had any hope of becoming a pro baller, in my youth, I needed to add skills, athleticism and a few more inches. Some things are easier to add than others.
    You probably couldve added more skills if you wanted to, developed your athleticism but you cant add the inches. The difference between you and Bargnani is he eats, breaths and sleeps basketball. He trains constantly with dedicated trainers and coaches. Experts tell him how to do things. So adding a skill will not be foreign to him. It maybe difficult, but its definitely doable. The support is there, its just up to him if he wants to do it. And these coaches and trainers need to instill in him what is obviously lacking in his game. Its up to him to say "Ill do it", but its up to the experts to say "Do this".
    Adding scoring to a player's repertoire and making them a scorer are two different things. And someone who scores 20 ppg is a scorer. And as I said, it's a massively different mindset. Per 36 minutes, Amir averaged around 13 ppg for the Raptors the last couple of seasons. I think if Amir were able to up that to 16 ppg, that would be fantastic. It would require him to become a better scorer than he is right now. Right now, you can't give him the ball and ask him to score. He's simply not good enough to be able to do that. But if he continues to work on his jumpshot and improves his post skills, I think being a 16 ppg scorer is definitely achievable.
    The thing is, while it's only four more points per game, it's a big difference, especially when teams start focusing on you defensively. Right now, it would be pretty easy to shut Amir out if a team really wanted to. Send a double team at him and there's not much he can do. But he's rarely double teamed because he's not enough of a scoring threat. As soon as he becomes a scoring threat then things change.
    If he becomes a 20 ppg scorer with the same productivity in the rest of his game as he has now, then he'd be a perennial All-Star. And I don't see that happening. Something will probably suffer to get him to become a 20 ppg scorer.
    It doesnt matter to me if its scoring or being a scorer, you put that ball in the hoop giving your team 2 points ends up the same. OK i admit, maybe 20pts per game is a bit too high for the "current" Amir, but if he comes to me and says i want to try and start scoring at least 20pts a game then i wont tell him no. Id give him the support he needs. Will he be able to do it, Maybe. But im not saying no just because i want him to concentrate on the only good parts of his game. I want his game to expand, not change. If he gets double teamed then thats awesome for the Raptors, who have some good shooters. And i think Amir is quite a good passer for a big man. You always indicated things are difficult to do, but you need to understand that not everything comes easy. These players have to work if they want to further their game.
    But Amir simply doesn't have a lot of scoring skills. He hasn't had to deal with double teams since high school, and simply doesn't have the skills to create his own shot very well. The points he gets are usually from pick and rolls, offensive boards or being at the right place at the right time. Give him the ball and asking him to score is something that IS foreign to him.
    It's like drafting a SG and asking him to become a PG. Technically, you just have to "add" skills, but it's really not as simple as that.
    I disagree. Ive seen him get the ball on top of the key and drove to the basket. Ive seen him do spin moves and pumpfakes. Again, with proper coaching and training, he can develop these skills. And there are SGs who can actually play the point and vice versa. Of course adding skills to a C to make him capable to play PG is rare, but the way youre analyzing "adding skills" is way out of context. Again, im not changing Amir, he's still a PF but with a better scoring skill set. Not changing him from a PF to an SG, and there's a big difference between the two comparisons.
    Ignoring the past isn't realistic when it gives you a good indication of what the future may be like. If you've been ripped off many times in the past by door to door salesmen, is it really wise to keep trusting them?
    I didnt say i ignore the past, i said it doesnt matter and i dont dwell in it, but i dont consider it as non-existent. Its there, it happened, but i dont focus on it. You dont trust them, but you prepare yourself of what can happen. Just because a guy in a suit outside my door tried to sell me a few things before and duped me, doesnt mean i would never ever answer the door again whenever i see another suit through the peephole. you open the door, ask what they want, and if theyre like the other ones before, you politely say no. Same with Bargnani, if he's done things in the past you dont like, you help him correct them. If you seem him starting to do the same things as before, you remind him to stick to the ways he's done to correct them, or hopefully, he'll realize it himself. But if you keep seeing him do the same things over and over again and just shut the door on him everytime, how can he improve?
    Besides, presently Bargnani is a poor defender. If you deal with the present, then what makes you think the present will change for the better?
    The glass is half-full.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Oct 13th, 2011 at 11:21 AM.

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    5 years in, the glass is neither half empty or half full. It is whatever it is and it is unlikely to become less full or more full. Unfortunately with bargnani, his salary glass is half-full and will get even fuller with every year.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Crap! I just wrote a big response and it never posted. I'll post again later.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Crap! I just wrote a big response and it never posted. I'll post again later.
    Oh man, i really hate that. Like when ive already typed up my response then click on back to check other posts...of course when i hit forward all the stuff i typed up has disappeared.

    People probably think we're crazy coz we're the only ones going back and forth on this thread, hehehe
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 10:06 AM.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    5 years in, the glass is neither half empty or half full. It is whatever it is and it is unlikely to become less full or more full. Unfortunately with bargnani, his salary glass is half-full and will get even fuller with every year.
    I think this is an onus on the Raptors. They either have to trade him, or if theyre really committed to making him their franchise player, push him to the brink, hit him with as much training and coaching as they possibly can and make something happen.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 10:06 AM.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    or if theyre really committed to making him their franchise player, push him to the brink, hit him with as much training and coaching as they possibly can and make something happen.

    Although there is nothing wrong with the logic of this argument, for us as outside fans it is a VERY difficult thing to assess. How can WE know that the team is pushing him to brink? How can we know that we haven't already been doing just that. AND how do we know where that "brink" is. Theoretically, up until Bargnani retires, or is no longer on the team, isn't there ALWAYS something more the raptors could do to get more productivity out of him?

    The other thing to consider, is that every human being only has a finite amount of time a day. All time spent with Bargnani is time that could potentially spent coaching/improving other players. You can always pay more human beings but then you are investing even more energy and funds into a single player who is currently not living up to his salary.

    I agree with Tim and some other posters who have noticed that every year there seem to be more arguments about "bargnani needs this..." or "bargnani would work with the right player/coach".

    My perspective is after 5 years, although there may be possible scenarios where bargnani improves or that he may even improve out of his own initiative or that he may suddenly "get it" (whatever that means). There is no way to can predict with certainty the behaviour of other human beings. However, the most reliable indication of future behaviour, is PAST behaviour. To expect anything other than VERY modest changes in bargnani's game is betting on long odds.

    Ultimately my only real problem with your line of reasoning is that, to me, we can never be certain when the criteria of "pushing him to the limit" is fulfilled, and the longer we take trying different alchemical equations we are paying him more and more money, meaning that his overall value and most likely his perceived value lowers and lowers.

    Assuming we don't see any significant changes in his game, at what point will you be satisfied that the raptors have done everything they can do to get more out of him, and that he is either, not going to change, or that he is the one responsible for any change or the lack their of? To me it is a VERY subjective and everyone gets to choose their own point to draw the line.

    Not to be condescending, but wanting to avoid coming across as hypocritical, I used to make similar arguments about him not being used the right way, or needing more time to develop. For me the point where I "gave up" on bargs was early in bosh's last season with the raps. I just didn't see any progress from the year before which would indicate that he was going to start doing things he hasn't done the entire time he'd been in the league.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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