View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6061
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Ive said this before, the basis of all my arguments with Bargnani is, if the raptors decide to keep him. And ive said numerous times before, i dont mind him being traded and im actually for him being traded, BUT, if the raptors do decide to keep him then its on them. Theyve seen how Bargnani was for the past 5 years, if they decide to keep him and still not do everything in their power to help him improve, then whats the point in keeping him.
    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Although there is nothing wrong with the logic of this argument, for us as outside fans it is a VERY difficult thing to assess. How can WE know that the team is pushing him to brink? How can we know that we haven't already been doing just that. AND how do we know where that "brink" is. Theoretically, up until Bargnani retires, or is no longer on the team, isn't there ALWAYS something more the raptors could do to get more productivity out of him?
    I think a good indicator is that - he's still with the team. If theyve already felt that theyve done everything to expand his defense and rebounding, then why is BC only now calling him out? Why havent they traded him after the 3rd year? 4th year? Why did they give him the extension? Why didnt they call him out a lot sooner? And no matter how far off it is, there is still a chance for him to improve, till the day he retires.
    The other thing to consider, is that every human being only has a finite amount of time a day. All time spent with Bargnani is time that could potentially spent coaching/improving other players. You can always pay more human beings but then you are investing even more energy and funds into a single player who is currently not living up to his salary.
    Then trade him. But they havent done that. Coz theyre still clinging to the fact that maybe, he can improve. I really dont see any other reason why. And time and resources is not an issue, IMO. If they truly believe that they want this guy to carry their label, then why give him anything but the best?
    I agree with Tim and some other posters who have noticed that every year there seem to be more arguments about "bargnani needs this..." or "bargnani would work with the right player/coach".
    Well, when he was drafted, Sam Mitchell was the coach and Jay Triano was an assistant coach. And eventually Jay replaced Sam. He's played for 2 coaches who came from the same system. So could there be a possibility that he'll improve in Casey's system? Maybe. Its an entirely different coach using a new system with new assistant coaches to boot.
    My perspective is after 5 years, although there may be possible scenarios where bargnani improves or that he may even improve out of his own initiative or that he may suddenly "get it" (whatever that means). There is no way to can predict with certainty the behaviour of other human beings. However, the most reliable indication of future behaviour, is PAST behaviour. To expect anything other than VERY modest changes in bargnani's game is betting on long odds.
    I know what you mean, Tim W. has hammered this point at me a trillion times. But nobody can change my mind that there is still a possibility that he might change. Be it 80% or .00001%. Fact of the matter is as long as he is playing, he has the chance to improve.
    Ultimately my only real problem with your line of reasoning is that, to me, we can never be certain when the criteria of "pushing him to the limit" is fulfilled, and the longer we take trying different alchemical equations we are paying him more and more money, meaning that his overall value and most likely his perceived value lowers and lowers.
    Again, if the Raptors feel like theyre just throwing money away by keeping him on the team, then by all means, trade him. But if they decide to keep him, then expand his game. You cant not play him and watch your $10mil rot.
    Assuming we don't see any significant changes in his game, at what point will you be satisfied that the raptors have done everything they can do to get more out of him, and that he is either, not going to change, or that he is the one responsible for any change or the lack their of? To me it is a VERY subjective and everyone gets to choose their own point to draw the line.
    Up until they trade him or till he retires as a Raptor. Coz when they trade him, i could care less what he does. But until then, he's still a Raptor, so they need to give him what he needs.
    Not to be condescending, but wanting to avoid coming across as hypocritical, I used to make similar arguments about him not being used the right way, or needing more time to develop. For me the point where I "gave up" on bargs was early in bosh's last season with the raps. I just didn't see any progress from the year before which would indicate that he was going to start doing things he hasn't done the entire time he'd been in the league.
    To be honest, i was never a Bargnani fan and will never be. My main issue is he's being thrown under the bus for something that, IMO, wasnt entirely his doing in the 1st place. They plucked this kid from Europe knowing full well he's a scoring bigman who doesnt have a taste for defense. And yet they wanted to turn him into a defensive presence in the middle. If he was never defensively capable as some people are saying, why did they wait this long to call him out? He is partly to blame too because he didnt have the initiative to further his game, but I blame the Raptors more for giving him an extension and waiting this long to even realize that he needs to expand his defensive skills.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Oct 14th, 2011 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #6062
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    But nobody can change my mind that there is still a possibility that he might change. Be it 80% or .00001%. Fact of the matter is as long as he is playing, he has the chance to improve.
    I would put that chance at 5%. Where would you put it?
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  3. #6063
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    tbihis wrote:

    But nobody can change my mind that there is still a possibility that he might change. Be it 80% or .00001%. Fact of the matter is as long as he is playing, he has the chance to improve.

    That is true. It may be unlikely but it is possible. Kwame Brown put it together (albeit nowhere near a #1 pick) last year with the right coach at 29 years of age. By put it together I mean solid defense and 10 points, 8 rebounds.

  4. #6064
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I would put that chance at 5%. Where would you put it?
    Me personally, and i know im an optimist, i would say 20%. If he improved his rebounding by 20%, that would put him around 7. I dont really know how you can quantify defense, but 20% for me would be him averaging a block and a half per game, and maybe limiting the opponent's big man to at least 3-5pts below scoring average.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    The other thing to consider, is that every human being only has a finite amount of time a day. All time spent with Bargnani is time that could potentially spent coaching/improving other players. You can always pay more human beings but then you are investing even more energy and funds into a single player who is currently not living up to his salary.
    This is, to me, a huge part of the issue. Money, time and resource spent on Bargnani could be spent elsewhere. If he needs a certain type of player, now you require more cap space, time and resource dedicated to that player (which can more or less can be seen as Bargnani's cost).

  6. #6066
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    This is, to me, a huge part of the issue. Money, time and resource spent on Bargnani could be spent elsewhere. If he needs a certain type of player, now you require more cap space, time and resource dedicated to that player (which can more or less can be seen as Bargnani's cost).
    If the Raptors do retain him, how do you plan on using him? Realistically...

  7. #6067
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If the Raptors do retain him, how do you plan on using him? Realistically...
    The same way he was used last season. As a "center" guarding the opposing player he is best suited to guard.

    He did an okay job if you consider that he was getting paid like a 2nd or 3rd option and yet opposing teams were focusing in on him as if he was our first option (because he pretty much was).

    I think Bargnani is still worth somewhere between 80%-95% of what he currently gets paid. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 1 (or more) GMs who value him AT or SLIGHTLY ABOVE what he makes. Either way, there is SOME value there which could be used in a trade.

    We are already pretty thin at the center position so I don't see the harm in playing bargs there for one more year; however, if we get 1 more big who is capable of playing 20ish minutes and another guy who can fill in during blowouts/injuries, than I would trade bargs to the highest bidder.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  8. #6068
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Me personally, and i know im an optimist, i would say 20%. If he improved his rebounding by 20%, that would put him around 7. I dont really know how you can quantify defense, but 20% for me would be him averaging a block and a half per game, and maybe limiting the opponent's big man to at least 3-5pts below scoring average.

    I don't think 20% is impossible, and I know we are talking subjectively to a degree, but if bargs were to increase his performance in stats/perception on both ends by 20% than he would be worth his contract. IF he could sustain at that higher level, I figure he is probably worth his paycheck throughout the length of his contract (and would most likely be a contender on the all star ballot). However, even if he increased his output by that 20% (give or take) I think the odds of him sustaining that increase over the length of 2-3 seasons is unlikely. I would be really happy because his stock would be up and the raps would probably get more for him in a trade.

    BUT even if bargs does improve to the degree that his is worth his contract, he's still NOT a guy I want on my team. I think that Davis and Amir are a better PF combo moving forward (cheaper, more upside). Having bargs splitting C duties w/ JV is a viable option until barg's contract expires, but I'd rather use his value to get other pieces.

    EDIT: I'm TOTALLY drinking the JV cool aid right now, but I think he's going to be a top ten center in the league by the time his rookie contact runs out.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  9. #6069
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    "My perspective is after 5 years, although there may be possible scenarios where bargnani improves or that he may even improve out of his own initiative or that he may suddenly "get it" (whatever that means). There is no way to can predict with certainty the behaviour of other human beings. However, the most reliable indication of future behaviour, is PAST behaviour. To expect anything other than VERY modest changes in bargnani's game is betting on long odds."

    I'm trying to think of other circumstances in which a player made any major improvements in their game after four or five years had passed. I was thinking Steve Nash so I checked his career stats. In his tenth and eleventh years his scoring was 18.8 and 18.6, an improvement over his fifth years 15.6. In those same years his shooting % was .512 and .532, an improvement over year fives .487. Hist assist averages were 10.5 and 11.6, a significant improvement over year fives 7.3. There wasn't much difference in minutes played, only about one more at 35.4 instead of 34.1.

    But then, I don't see Andrea as a Steve Nash type. Nash's stats show a steady if gradual improvement almost year to year. He is somewhat famous for his work ethic as well. So not impossible for Bargnani, but from my perspective, not expected.

    Paul

  10. #6070
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    Well, everyone else basically has said what I wanted to, so there's no need for me to try and redo the comment that got lost a few days ago. Suffice is to say, I think Puffer said it best. It's one thing to hope that Bargnani suddenly gets it, but the odds are not good at all.

    And let me add that Steve Nash had two things that changed for him. The first, and most important thing, is that he got over his injuries. It was injuries, more than anything else, that held Nash back. Secondly, going to Phoenix, with the system they were running, fit Nash to a 'T'.

    I think there really is no logical reason to believe Bargnani will change much. As Puffer said, the best way to predict future behaviour is to look at past behaviour.
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I don't think 20% is impossible, and I know we are talking subjectively to a degree, but if bargs were to increase his performance in stats/perception on both ends by 20% than he would be worth his contract. IF he could sustain at that higher level, I figure he is probably worth his paycheck throughout the length of his contract (and would most likely be a contender on the all star ballot). However, even if he increased his output by that 20% (give or take) I think the odds of him sustaining that increase over the length of 2-3 seasons is unlikely. I would be really happy because his stock would be up and the raps would probably get more for him in a trade.

    BUT even if bargs does improve to the degree that his is worth his contract, he's still NOT a guy I want on my team. I think that Davis and Amir are a better PF combo moving forward (cheaper, more upside). Having bargs splitting C duties w/ JV is a viable option until barg's contract expires, but I'd rather use his value to get other pieces.

    EDIT: I'm TOTALLY drinking the JV cool aid right now, but I think he's going to be a top ten center in the league by the time his rookie contact runs out.
    i hope soo, imagine Ed and JV that is an insane front court. With DeMar and Bayless and Barnes/miller. i have high hopes for the raps

  12. #6072
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, everyone else basically has said what I wanted to, so there's no need for me to try and redo the comment that got lost a few days ago. Suffice is to say, I think Puffer said it best. It's one thing to hope that Bargnani suddenly gets it, but the odds are not good at all.

    And let me add that Steve Nash had two things that changed for him. The first, and most important thing, is that he got over his injuries. It was injuries, more than anything else, that held Nash back. Secondly, going to Phoenix, with the system they were running, fit Nash to a 'T'.

    I think there really is no logical reason to believe Bargnani will change much. As Puffer said, the best way to predict future behaviour is to look at past behaviour.
    I think through all the back and forth some issues have been lost in translation.

    Just want to make it clear that i dont "expect" or "predict" that Bargnani is going to improve next season or the one after or in future seasons. Ive stood by my argument that he MAY or MAY NOT improve. If he stays as a Raptor, im "hoping" he will improve for the sake of the team, but if he gets traded, i could care less.

    Everybody keeps saying "look at his past behavior" which i dont ignore, but once the new season starts, its an entirely new ballgame, so to speak. Im not going to say "well, he's going be the same way as he was last season" coz im an optimist, not a pessimist. He could be, or maybe not.

    And comparing Bargnani to Nash or to any other player for that matter is apples and oranges. Even if you compare Bargnani to a physically identical player, there is still no comparison, unless youre comparing Bargnani to a physically identical player who also played in europe, developed as a socring big man and had the exact same coaches training him then that would make sense. If you compare Bargnani to any player, all you can do is "expect" and "predict" and im not a type of person who does that.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Oct 18th, 2011 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I don't think 20% is impossible, and I know we are talking subjectively to a degree, but if bargs were to increase his performance in stats/perception on both ends by 20% than he would be worth his contract. IF he could sustain at that higher level, I figure he is probably worth his paycheck throughout the length of his contract (and would most likely be a contender on the all star ballot). However, even if he increased his output by that 20% (give or take) I think the odds of him sustaining that increase over the length of 2-3 seasons is unlikely. I would be really happy because his stock would be up and the raps would probably get more for him in a trade.

    BUT even if bargs does improve to the degree that his is worth his contract, he's still NOT a guy I want on my team. I think that Davis and Amir are a better PF combo moving forward (cheaper, more upside). Having bargs splitting C duties w/ JV is a viable option until barg's contract expires, but I'd rather use his value to get other pieces.

    EDIT: I'm TOTALLY drinking the JV cool aid right now, but I think he's going to be a top ten center in the league by the time his rookie contact runs out.
    I cant wait either for JV to step on the ACC. IMO, he's waaaay better than a cross between Gangster and Hawes. The only thing im worried about is the Raps are going to get him to bulk up which might cause him to lose his agility.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Oct 18th, 2011 at 11:47 AM.

  14. #6074
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Default Bargnani to play in Italy .. thanks to Ashley Madison?

    This is just too good to be true.

    Infidelity Website Helps Bargs out:

    The chance was too good to pass up, an opportunity to do some promotion for the company, to help old friends, to repatriate an athlete if only for a few months.

    A website that bills itself as “the world’s leading married dating service for discreet encounters” is trying to get Andrea Bargnani playing basketball in his native Italy.

    And if it helps business, well, that’s a nice little bonus for ashleymadison.com.

    “This was a chance for some cross-promotion, to call the team Ashley Madison Roma,” Noel Biderman, the chief executive officer of Avid Life Media, the company that owns the dating site targeting married people, said in a telephone interview from Italy, where he is trying to finalize the deal.

    “I’m going to try my best to help him. … We’re 90 per cent of the way there.”

    All that’s left to gain is approval from the team’s ownership. But without a “name” sponsor at the moment, that could be forthcoming.

    Aside from covering the cost of insuring Bargnani’s NBA contact — which has four years and about $41 million (all figures U.S.) left to run — Biderman is putting the final touches on a wide-ranging sponsorship deal that will see the first-division Italian team be known as Ashley Madison Roma, in keeping with European basketball tradition of having corporation as the team name.

    Biderman, a Toronto native, is no stranger to sports, though.

    He worked as a sports attorney — based in Italy — before moving to the world of websites.

    “This pursuit came about for two reasons — I have some good personal connections in Italy having worked for one of Europe’s largest sports agencies (which is based there) and secondly, we have recently launched Ashley Madison into Italy — its 16th country,” Biderman said in an email.

    At Interperformances, he managed 45 athletes around the globe while acting as the managing director of the company’s Canadian operations and had much interaction with Italian counterparts.

    When the possibility was raised of Kobe Bryant playing at least a bit in the Italian league while the NBA lockout drones on, Biderman saw an opportunity to help a team he knew needed a sponsor and advance the recognition of his company.

    While hardly on the scale of global popularity that Bryant is, Bargnani remains a highly-recognized name in his native Rome and being able to facilitate his return to basketball there — if only for a few weeks or months — will help Biderman’s business cause immensely.

    As part of the sponsorship deal, ashleymadison.com will not only be the team’s major sponsor, with its name prominently displayed on home and away uniforms, the deal calls for in-arena recognition and a pre-determined amount of advertising time on broadcasts of the team’s games.

    This is not the first foray of ashleymadison.com into attempts to reach a wider audience.

    The company was rebuffed in efforts to buy naming rights to Phoenix’s Sky Harbour Airport and the new football stadium that’s home to the NFL’s New York Giants and Jets.

    “To get naming rights for a major city franchise plus the guaranteed TV spots on their own would make marketing sense,” he said. “Add a homegrown NBA talent in to the mix and I think this could be the best idea since starting a dating website for married people

    Bargnani has been in his native Italy since the end of the NBA season and played for his national team in August’s European basketball championships, where Italy failed to qualify for the 2012 London Olympics.

    It’s unclear when Bargnani would start playing for Rome, which is 1-1 in Italian league play. The original report detailing his decision to possibly join the team said the cost of insuring his Raptors contract is approximately $2 million.

    Raptors officials are precluded from even acknowledging Bargnani’s basketball existence while the NBA lockout is in effect.

    Another of Toronto’s European players — Jose Calderon — is keeping busy in his homeland.

    Calderon said he’s working out daily with the second-team of the Spanish league giants Barcelona but has no plans to play in games on a regular basis.
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  15. #6075
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    hahahahahaahahahaha oh my god... its REAL!?!? my buddy sent me a text message yesterday saying something like "Bargs is getting reunited with Italy thanks to AshleyMadison.com"... i seriously thought he was just goofing off... we always send each other BS texts like "Wayne Rooney will be sitting out due to injury.... i didnt know MS is an injury" or "Demar Derozan buys new car... but there was a problem at the dealership when he couldn't spell CAR"... would have never thought this one was legit

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    so he's not coming back?

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    How will they ever be able to defend themselves against allegations of cheating?

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    Hahaha. Not so fast, the Pope is stepping in!

    The team isn’t sure if they want to partner with the website and have made it clear that ethical issues are holding up Bargnani’s signing. When international teams accept money from sponsors, they often incorporate the business into their team’s name. That’s what the website wants, a change from Virtus Roma to Ashley Madison Roma, in addition to advertisements on each jersey and throughout the arena.

    Even if the team decides to accept the sponsorship, Italian reports have suggested that the Vatican could stop the deal from being finalized. The team’s facilities are next to Vatican City and there are some who believe the Church will try to step in and block the move.
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  19. #6079
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Man I was just in rome and there isn't anything remotely Ball related anywhere near the Vatican City. Just tourist traps. I was on the lookout for any sign of BBall, specially cuz it was when the EuroBasket was going down and there was an international 3 on 3 comp somewhere in Italy but you'd never know it. Not reported in the papers, no transit posters nada.

  20. #6080
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    Hahaha. Not so fast, the Pope is stepping in!
    Where was the Pope when BC drafted Bargnani?

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