View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6121
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Just for fun:

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    So here we go. Here are a list of reasons to show why the argument that Bargnani's rebounding will improve simply by moving him to PF makes very little to no sense.

    - There are far, far more above average rebounders at PF than at center, so Bargnani will have to compete with better rebounders to get more rebounds.
    The average TRR of PF's is 13,9%
    The average TRR of C's is 14,8%

    hoopdata

    They might be better rebounders, but they get less rebounds...

    - Whether by circumstances or by design, Bargnani generally defended the least productive frontcourt player, which was most often the center. By moving him to PF and bringing in a veteran center, Bargnani will have to defend better players. That doesn't bode well for ANY of his stats.
    Long discussion, still not be a believer because all my posted research on this matter does not validate this statement and no other evidence but watching games has been presented. Will without hesitation accept the statement when there is proof. Just a comment on the comment for those that missed those discussions.

  2. #6122
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    There are far, far more above average rebounders at PF than at center, so Bargnani will have to compete with better rebounders to get more rebounds.
    I hope the TRR stats Soft Euro posted are sufficient to prove centers generally rebound at a higher rate than PF. And the center include Bargnani.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    While Bargnani will have a height advantage over most Pfs , most of his them will have a quickness advantage, so it kind of nullifies any advantage.
    I am not certain most PFs have a quickness advantage over Bargnani. In fact, I think the reverse may be true.

    I don't think Bargnani's height or quickness advantages will matter at all if he's lost in a rotation or fails to box out his man as he did so often last year.
    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Whether by circumstances or by design, Bargnani generally defended the least productive frontcourt player, which was most often the center. By moving him to PF and bringing in a veteran center, Bargnani will have to defend better players. That doesn't bode well for ANY of his stats.
    This sort of statement really bothers me.

    If that argument is even remotely close to being true, why is Bargnani blamed when the other team's best big drops 25+ on the Raptors? Either Bargnani is guarding him and is in large part responsible for these facts or, as quoted text suggests, another big man (Reggie, Ed, or (oh no! not) Amir was guarding him and they were largely responsible for the output.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Nov 27th, 2011 at 07:49 PM. Reason: profanity not to the benefit of the conversation

  3. #6123
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I hope the TRR stats Soft Euro posted are sufficient to prove centers generally rebound at a higher rate than PF. And the center include Bargnani.
    You seem to be quite quick to accept the evidence Soft Euro presented. Did you even bother looking closely at the numbers? One thing that jumps out is that they've got Renaldo Blackman listed as a PF, and they've got him listed twice because he was on two different teams (which skews the numbers). Not surprisingly, he's got one of the lowest rebounding rates at the PF spot, because he's not a PF. And Rashard Lewis, who's really a SF but played a lot of PF for the Magic because of the offense they played, is also listed twice, and he's a horrible rebounder. Michael Beasley is also listed as a PF as is Brian Cardinal (who's more like a tweener).

    I think you can definitely say that there are more poor rebounders at the PF position than the center position, but a lot of that are guys who are really SFs that sometimes play the PF position (Boris Diaw, for example).

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I am not certain most PFs have a quickness advantage over Bargnani. In fact, I think the reverse may be true.

    I don't think Bargnani's height or quickness advantages will matter at all if he's lost in a rotation or fails to box out his man as he did so often last year.
    I agree with that. I was just trying to counterpoint an argument I'd heard before.

    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    This sort of statement really bothers me.

    If that argument is even remotely close to being true, why is Bargnani blamed when the other team's best big drops 25+ on the Raptors? Either Bargnani is guarding him and is in large part responsible for these facts or, as quoted text suggests, another big man (Reggie, Ed, or (oh no! not) Amir was guarding him and they were largely responsible for the output.

    You can't have it both ways.
    I don't recall Bargnani being blamed when the other team's best player scores 25+ points. Not from me, anyway. I blame Bargnani when I see him not rotating, giving his man too deep post position, not boxing out, turning his head on his man on defense etc. That's not to say Bargnani shouldn't shoulder a lot of the blame for the Raptors defensive woes. Have you ever played in a team with a guy who is inept at team defense? Even worse, a big man? It is incredibly difficult to overcome. I find I play worse defense because I'm always looking over my shoulder trying to make sure the guy isn't completely out of position. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating. That's why I often assume that guys who say Bargnani defensive woes can be covered up either don't play basketball, or are as clueless defensively as he is.
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  4. #6124
    Raptors Republic Starter The Rawth's Avatar
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    I think that albeit the fact that PFs may be quicker than Bargs given his height advantage, he looks to have shed his 'bulk' that he originally gained to play Centre, and his performances in the Euro Nationals with Italy he looked very mobile and had no problem matching up with natural PF (though he does consider himself one) So it does look as though he is preparing himself for the more mobile requirments of PF.

    Also , i know those Euro Natuonal comps are nowhere near as competitve and top notch as NBA, and Bargs rebounding numbers were not SKY high, but he did look more 'focused' and certainly put more effort into getting the rebounds he got.
    Im not sure whether the Bargnani that played in the Nationals will transfer well back to the NBA but he did look on form and played acceptably (albeit the opposing talent level)

    I am and have always been a big Bargnani fan and have always been able to point his flaws, accept them and move on but it HAS been a long time coming for Raps fans to want to see his full 'potential' and this is most likely his last chance, if he gets one. I just hope he uses this chance and proves alot of people wrong

    I hope i made sense haha!
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  5. #6125
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Imagine where this franchise would be if we gave each of our previous 1st round picks a window of 6 years to figure things out. We'd probably be looking at the world's first 0-82 team...

  6. #6126
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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  7. #6127
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    That is good news. I'd really love to be proven wrong by Bargnani but after 5 years........ everyone should know the rest by now.

  8. #6128
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is good news. I'd really love to be proven wrong by Bargnani but after 5 years........ everyone should know the rest by now.
    I don't think he is going to come in and be a totally different player, but at least he has been working out with basketball trainers and in the Toronto area, can't be a bad thing.

  9. #6129
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Im not optimistic, but Ive never read/heard any news like this, that Bargnani is actually doing individual workouts with trainers.
    This COULD be a good thing.

  10. #6130
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'll only get excited about this news once someone explains to me how individual workouts and draining 3s helps one improve their defensive awareness...

  11. #6131
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'll only get excited about this news once someone explains to me how individual workouts and draining 3s helps one improve their defensive awareness...
    HaHaHaHaHa

    Love it.

    Don't be such a sourpuss. Improving his defensive prowess is Casey's job.

    Puffer

  12. #6132
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'll only get excited about this news once someone explains to me how individual workouts and draining 3s helps one improve their defensive awareness...
    I'll let Cesco know you asked.......

  13. #6133
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default The new and improved (and photoshopped) Bargnani, hahahaha

    you guys like? hahahaha


  14. #6134
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    is that actually photoshopped? well at least he lost that fat maybe now he can actually average more than 6 rebounds.

  15. #6135
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    is that actually photoshopped? well at least he lost that fat maybe now he can actually average more than 6 rebounds.
    i saw it on his FB page. somebody actually commented in something in italian which included the word photoshopped. so i dont know if the commenter knew it was photoshopped or if he was asking as well.

  16. #6136
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    Nah it aint photoshopped, hes been hitting the gym quite alot during the lockout, i follow his twitter and although alots in Italian, he tweets alot about gym work and his trainings (and getaways with the Mrs for few days) I think hes been putting in some good hard work over the months and i (we all) hope to see some improvement translate to the court, he certainly looked fitter and more determined during the Euro Nationals with Italy

  17. #6137
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Yeah I heard from a couple people he lost some weight/added muscle. Interesting.

    Imagine he proves us all wrong and the Bargs fanboys (trolls) are right? Shoot me now.
    @jerboat

  18. #6138
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Imagine he proves us all wrong and the Bargs fanboys (trolls) are right? Shoot me now.
    Not sure why you'd be upset if Bargnani turned out to be the Prospect we all hoped he would.

    As a Toronto Raptors fan, I would love nothing more than for Bargnani to come out and play like the #1 pick that he is.
    In Masai we Trust.

  19. #6139
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Yeah I heard from a couple people he lost some weight/added muscle. Interesting.

    Imagine he proves us all wrong and the Bargs fanboys (trolls) are right? Shoot me now.
    Im not a fan but for the sake of the Raps (coz i dont think he'll be traded, at least not this year) i hope he does he improve, so he can 1) be a positive force in the Raps offense and defense incase they do decide to keep him, 2) to increase his trade value

    Who do you refer to as the fanboys (trolls)?

  20. #6140
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Not sure why you'd be upset if Bargnani turned out to be the Prospect we all hoped he would.

    As a Toronto Raptors fan, I would love nothing more than for Bargnani to come out and play like the #1 pick that he is.
    Agreed. If Bargnani could consistently play with desire at full effort he would be my favourite player in the league hands down.

    A consistent agressive competitive edge is all he is missing. Unfortunately despite immense talent, the drive is what separates good players from great players. Bargnani has the tools to be a great player.

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