But the question remains: Is Bargnani (now entering his 6th NBA season), worth this much babysitting? I know every player needs some sort of reward/punishment system to succeed, but in Bargnani's case, it would seem like going well above the norm would be required. Is he worth the trouble? I would say no.Puffer wrote:
Again, ive discussed this with you before. Nobody feels sorry for the guy, i know youve read most of the posts about him here, everybody's frustrated with him. And yes, so is BC. But why do you think he hasnt traded him yet? IMO, coz BC knows, they havent done everything yet to get this guy to improve, otherwise, like you said, he wouldve been traded a long time ago. Now that "the last line of defense" has been put up (defensive coach, defensive center in JV) he has no more excuses. But IF he does improve, then BC would realize he shouldve done this in the first place.
I think one of the main problems with your arguments is you keep comparing Bargnani with other PFs or C, what if you reversed it. What if you questioned why Gasol cant hit the 3 when he's pretty much the same built and height as Bargnani? Why doesnt DeAndre Jordan have a quick first step when he has the same built and height as Bargnani? Every player is different. Doesnt mean they have the same built and height you expect them to do the exact same things. Bargnani is not your typical PF or C. Doesnt excuse him from defending or rebounding, but unlike other centers it wasnt his priority then, but it should be now. Im really not sure where youre getting that he's not focused or has unsustained work ethic. Ive never heard he ditched practice or sulked on the bench. Triano played him almost 40 mins a game last season. If he wasnt focused or didnt have a good work ethic, why would they even let him play? The problem lies in his knowledge of defense and rebounding. Get the guy a trainer and grind him.
I agree with the Derozan part. But i dont agree that Bargnani doesnt have a drive. He does. He just didnt focus it on defense and rebounding last year. And someone should nudge him to make him realize that.
I dont think its babysitting. Its professional sports, athletes are given proper training and coaching to improve, sustained improvement and hopefully reach potential. I dont think its logical to give a guy 10mil an year and let him work on the kinks on his game by himself. Like i said to Tim, if BC felt that he's exhausted his efforts on making Bargnani improve, why didnt he trade him long ago? Coz he knows he hasnt, and this last ditch effort (defensive coach, defensive center) is, well, a last ditch effort. I really think he would trade Bargnani if he still doesnt improve this season.
I know where he gets it: from watching him play. Have you ever spent an entire game just watching Bargnani? I have. Multiple times. It's not fun. The guy has the defensive awareness of mayonnaise.
Look, the idea that somehow he hasn't been coached properly and that his knowledge of rebounding and defence are to blame is utter bullshit. Rebounding and defence are 60% effort, 30% awareness/feel and 10% technique. Bargnani lacks the first two, no denying it. Again, if you really doubt this, go back and watch some Raptors games from last season and tunnel vision Bargs.
Just to back that up, here's Hollinger's take from his insider profiles:
"The biggest challenge for Dwane Casey will be getting Bargnani to quit being such a wimp. His defensive stats are absolutely pathetic. Last season the Raptors were 6.45 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the court, while the year before the differential was 9.10. And that's the best set of numbers on his résumé.
Want more? Among centers he was last in both blocks per minute and rebounds, and sixth from the bottom in steals. According to 82games.com, Bargnani was savaged by opposing centers for a 21.1 PER; essentially, an average center became an All-Star at the mere sight of Bargnani.
Wait, it gets worse. Using regularized adjusted plus-minus, Bargnani was the worst defensive big man in the entire league last season. Technically, there are two different ways to do this method -- one here and one here; conveniently, both had Bargnani as the league's worst defensive frontcourt player.
The fact only three centers fouled less frequently gives you some of the cause for that effect -- the dude is barely trying. Nobody expects him to turn into Tarzan down there, but with his mobility he should at least be able to rotate effectively and cut off drives. More often he's on the weak side scratching his beard while an opposing guard is laying the ball in."
There are many other possible reasons:
1) he tried to trade him but had no takers
2) he tried to trade him but BC 'valued' Bargnani alot more than other GMs did
3) his ego won't allow him to accept his #1 overrall pick was unsuccessful
If Bargnani doesn't work out this year (if it truelly is a 'last ditch' effort)... the team officially has a white, slimmer, uninjured Eddie Curry. Simply not a risk I want the team to take... especially if the plan is to rebuild and create a new 'culture' with this team.
Ofcourse I've become resigned to the fact that Bargnani isn't going anywhere (see #3 leading to #2 and eventually #1) until he is an expiring contract. Now if Bargnani suddenly changes his approach to basketball that may not be a bad thing, or if Bargnani's agent gets a gig as a GM of the Phoenix Suns, that can't hurt either.
really? the proof that Bargnani is focused and has a sustained work ethic is that Triano played him as much as he did last year?Im really not sure where youre getting that he's not focused or has unsustained work ethic. Ive never heard he ditched practice or sulked on the bench. Triano played him almost 40 mins a game last season. If he wasnt focused or didnt have a good work ethic, why would they even let him play? The problem lies in his knowledge of defense and rebounding. Get the guy a trainer and grind him.
I guess the fact that Christianity is the most common religion is proof that God exists?
Well, saying "watching games" is very subjective. Everybody can have an opinion by "watching games" but stats dont say he wasnt focused or wasnt unethical. Triano didnt say he lacked focus. BC didnt say he lacked work ethic. They both said Bargnani needs the drive and desire to improve.
I dont agree with those percentages. Rebounding is a skill, you have to know how to plant your feet, move, where to position yourself, time your jump, etc etc. Even if Bargnani has 60% effort to rebound, he'd just be a headless chicken out there. You need an expert to teach you the proper techniques. Cant be all heart.
I think we pretty much covered how bad Bargnani was last year, thats why the argument now is what IF he improves this year. I didnt say he was amazing last year, nobody's saying that. The argument now is, if he improves, what should be done with him. Thanks for the stats, but youve just reminded us what we've known all along.
well it doesnt negate it. could also be that the Raps had no other viable center. But IMO, if he really lacked focus and work ethic, they wouldnt have even wasted time on him.
I think ill pass commenting on the last line.
We'd be lucky to receive anything of value in exchange for Bargnani after it's proven he's a defensive pylon. The time to trade him is before the proof is in the pudding. Some moronic GM might hold a glimmer of hope that Bargnani can be an effective 2-way player on a contending team. Right now, that moronic GM is Colangelo.
so using your reasoning:
1) you can't use 'watching games' as proof of a players work ethic as that is to subjective
2) you can't use stats as proof because they don't say anything about it
3) but you can use the number of minutes a coach gave a player as evidence of how strong a players work ethic is
therefore:
Bargnani should be the hardest working player on the team...
First of all, obviously I can't quote a stat that doesn't exist, so I'm not sure what your point is here. That's like saying that stats can't tell me how much effort Bargs exerted. But when you watch how hard a guy like Reggie Evans works and then you watch his teammate float around waiting for the ball to come to him, that gives me all the subjective opinion I need.
Let me get this straight: you think work ethic and drive are somehow not connected? Like they aren't essentially different words for the same thing? Drive and work ethic are internal, not external factors. If the player doesn't have that hunger to be the best internally then odds aren't good that a coach is going to somehow magically impart it to them.Triano didnt say he lacked focus. BC didnt say he lacked work ethic. They both said Bargnani needs the drive and desire to improve.
Look, teaching someone to rebound should in no way take 4+ years. There is literally no excuse for that. It's a very simple concept and can be grasped in high school. There is not a lot of technique to it; it's a function of how badly you want to fight to keep the guy you should hopefully have sealed on your back away from the ball.I dont agree with those percentages. Rebounding is a skill, you have to know how to plant your feet, move, where to position yourself, time your jump, etc etc. Even if Bargnani has 60% effort to rebound, he'd just be a headless chicken out there. You need an expert to teach you the proper techniques. Cant be all heart.
To me, the idea that Bargs simply hasn't grasped HOW to be a good rebounder is as big a knock on him as the lack of effort, because frankly if you can't grasp the basics of rebounding in that amount of time then you're either not paying attention, or dumb as a post. The guy has been working with big man coaches since he got into the league, he's had the benefit of the Raptors coaching staff available to him to work with him and drill him if he wanted to, but what, he just hasn't bothered? And that's somehow ok? It's cool with him that Ed Davis, a skinnier, lighter guy just out of college and coming off an injury can outrebound him? He never bothered to ask Reggie Evans for any pointers while they were teammates? Sorry, I don't buy the skill argument. It's effort, it's desire, plain and simple.
the last line is not to start a debate about religion or the existence of a divine being, its just that one specific indirect peice of 'evidence' is hardly evidence at all.
its not hard to believe that Bargnani got as many minutes as he did because BC believed he would be a better player, or BC's ego wouldn't allow Jay to play Bargnani less, or BC was trying to improve Bargnani's trade value, or because BC had built the team with him at the center of it, or that Bargnani's contract doesn't allow him to be benched, or that Jay was afraid he'd get Sam Mitchell-ed or all of the above.
Is Bargnani 'good enough', will Bargnani get 'better', will Bargnani have good/bad trade value? That stuff is definetely all up for debate. But Bargnani's work ethic (atleast to this point in time)? How is that even up for debate?
The reasons....could be. I wouldnt disagree with this. But IMO, the signs point to BC making moves to help the defensive issues of his team, and along the way, partly help Bargnani too with his issues.
Im not so sure about that. Did Eddy Curry have a 3 pt shot? Did Eddy Curry have a quick first step to the basket? Was Curry pulling centers out of the paint and beating them off the dribble? Even if Bargnani doesnt improve defensively, he's not a write-off. Some team will need scoring and can probably be convinced that they can use a big, immobile body down low. Just not the Raptors.
I seriously think, and i could be wrong like most times, this is it for him. If he doesnt show improvement, he's gone. BC is a businessman, he wont have trouble selling Bargnani to another team. He was able to trade Araujo and Turk, that put my confidence in him.
Thing is, if youre thinking that one good season might convince another GM to take him on, dont you think GMs are thinking that one good season may not prove anything either?
Amen.
the Eddie Curry comparison was not in terms of skill set.
1) I said subjective, meaning it can be a different interpretation for different people.
2) not on work ethic and focus
3) not necessarily, but it wont negate it either
last line: again, subjective. some people might say he is the hardest working player - on the offensive end.
You could be right. It's all speculation at this point in terms of how Bargnani is viewed/will be viewed by other GMs.
But what I find fascinating is that you're an obvious fan of Gary Payton (based on your avatar), one of the greatest defensive players of all time at his position. That tells me that you appreciate a tough, intimidating, hard-working player. Yet you have no problem finding a plethora of excuses for Bargnani's defensive issues
and who would those people be?
can we stats for that? because Bargnani's shot distribution says significantly different (unless jumpshots suddenly became the hardest working shot in basketball)
I don't think it takes much pushing to get a player to take more shots. I wouldn't say it qualifies as "hard work".
It's like saying a kid who excels at video games is a hard working kid, but the same kid refuses to do his homework, or household chores (i.e. stuff that actually requires effort).
Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Dec 7th, 2011 at 11:46 AM.
There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote