Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I agree with Apollo and tbihis as well. I don't understand that idea of worrying about the past, when the sport only cares about the current season. IF Bargnani turns it around, then great for the Raptors and what difference does the past five years make to the team going forward? A devil's advocate could argue that had Bargnani turned it around a few seasons ago, the Raps may not have some/all of Valanciunas, Davis and DeRozan... haha, but I digress...

As much as I have been a Bargnani supporter, one of my biggest complaints is when he resorts to long fadeaway jumpers and 3-pointers. I am left with the thought that coaches are as much to blame for that trend as Bargnani - I'm not trying to make an excuse for him, it just seems like that's how the plays are drawn up. If the coach wanted Bargnani to focus more on post play, wouldn't the coach be pissed off and pulling him off the court if he ignored the coach's demands and continued jacking up long shots? As much as riding him for defense and rebounding, I hope Casey forces Bargnani to play inside much more often, because I think he is already a pretty effective post player - when he commits to playing inside. There were games last year where Bargnani would start out something like 3-5 shooting (all inside) with a couple trips to the foul line, then just inexplicably decide to abandon the inside game and I wondered two things: first, why did he decide to play outside all of a sudden; second, if it wasn't the coach's call to move him outside despite inside success, why isn't the coach plunking his ass on the bench?

I am curious to see how Bargnani and the entire team responds to Casey this season and am salivating at the prospect of adding Valanciunas and a stud SF/PG from the draft to the roster next year!

[GarbageTime]

I played hockey competitively for all my childhood and teenage years. I hear you on the element of fear. I've seen some "superstars" in practice look entirely different come game time. I think the key is to just hit somebody. If you start hitting guys, initiating the contact, it gives you a greater sense of control. It opens you up and replaces hesitation/fear with adrenalin and fire. Then when the hits are coming your way you're thinking or reacting as opposed to panicking or cowering. I know it's not always that simple but the mind can be your best tool or your worst enemy.

I completely agree with this, and I think its been a Raptor 'star' problem for a long time. Bosh, Bargnani and even Derozan to date. The guys who do the 'little things' to make a difference have never been afraid of getting down and dirty and risking contact (Reggie, Garbo, JYD, Antonio Davis) and the real superstars in the league have that very same approach to the game (they are just much more talented in other areas ofcourse).

I really want to see this team to start getting nasty. I don't care if they rack up the most fouls in the league... in fact at this point in time I'd love to see that. When any team or payer does not take or draw many fouls that just means they aren't trying hard enough.

[Bendit]

But hey, on the other hand, its a business. Thats what the professional basketballs has come to, a business.

This "business" term has become a bit of a bad word moreso lately. Isn't it really about how one conducts ones self in the affairs of said business? With integrity, civility, fulfillment of contractual obligation etc etc?

The way I see that LA trade thing is that there was no consummated trade. Word of an impending trade got leaked. I dont know that the Lakers (or anyone else for that matter) was under obligation to inform any of the players that they were under consideration of being traded. Why upset anyone before the deal is done or for that jeopardize it. So, in that sense I believe LO is in fact being overly sensitive about the process. I dont believe the LA gm was being malicious or uncaring if that is what is being implied by LO. And yes I do think LO subjugated his game for his team.

[Matt52]

Its not about punishing anyone.

Then why would the Raptors look to trade him IF (and these are big IF's) he:

becomes more efficient scoring with a balanced inside out game,
starting rebounding 7.6 per game (that is Nene numbers),
is able to get his OppPER down to 16-17 range (that is David West numbers),
bring the effort on a consistent basis.


If he does those things, in my opinion, he is a bonafide all-star.

[Hugmenot]

So, if your girlfriend constantly cheated on you, and cheated on everyone she's ever been out with, do you think you should ignore history and believe that this time it will be different? Or should you be forgiven for accepting that things will probably never change and move on? Which sounds more reasonable to you?

Maybe you should consider an open relationship and live happily.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

And I think thats the next level of the discussion.

Is the risk of keeping/building with Bargnani worth it? Its taking time and opportunities away from others, its using up cap space that could be used towards someone else and its forces the team to atleast look at (or avoid) certain unique/different players in order to get a 'fit' with Bargnani... and that time/touches/money in turn could be used for someone else aswell.

So for instance, Reggie last year was a clearly there to compensate for Bargnani's lack of rebounding. But if the team didn't have to worry about Bargnani's rebounding then Reggie could have been traded for another asset. Or Reggie could have been given less minutes for Amir/Ed/Ajinca or whoever.

Then there is also a possible decrease in his trade value if his performance doesn't improve, or god forbid, got worse.

There is an opportunity cost to Bargnani's minutes/contract/roster spot/touches. To me, every year this team repeats itself, it not only has lost more but has increased the level of the risk they take. At some point its just not worth it anymore, and its time to cut your losses.

Its not as if he hasn't been given ample opportunity to 'prove' himself. He is no longer a rookie or 2nd year player trying to get a feel for what he is capable of or what he needs to do. He's finished 5 years in the NBA, and taken the same approach to the game since his very first game.



and what would happen if every player was treated that way? Joey Graham was mentioned already, but what about Roko Ukic or Jamrio Moon or Mike James?

What if Roko had been given 6 years? Had the right players fit around him? I didn't see fans saying 'oh well the team needs to give him more of a chance', 'his history to date is meaningless because anything can happen going forward'. Yet Bargnani gets it time and time again.

Why is it that Bargnani gets 'special' treatment that the vast majority of the league (let alone Raptors) would never, and has never, gotten? I'm not talking about the organization here (I think that comes from BC's ego and his philosophy of trying to build a 'european' team in Toronto) but from fans? We've seen players come and go like farts in the wind.... yet Bargnani's has been allowed to linger and apparently smells a little sweeter than anyone elses has. Is it just because he was a #1 pick and its tough to accept the pick didn't turn out as expected (or wanting it to turn out)? Is it purely his scoring? Is it a European thing where he has brought in a lot of fans from Italy or Europe and they want to support their nation/continent?

I understand people hoping 'this year' (whatever year that may be) will be different. I don't understand how that argument doesn't eventually get stale or wear on people.

I actually agree with the first part. And i just said in my previous post that if the right deal comes along, get rid of him.
But dont trade him just for the sake of trading.

Im not sure how Bargnani is comparable to those 3 players you mentioned. So im not even going to comment on that.

Ive said before, you give a guy 10 mil a year, you make sure you give him everything he needs to perform well. Call it babysitting, spoonfeeding, whatever.

Well you have to ask BC why he's kept Bargnani here for that long. Im afraid i cant answer that for him.

I cant speak for the others, but for me, seems like the team is going on a different direction, which is defense. And im hoping Bargnani drags himself along with the team. Mind you nobody is assuming that he will do good, most are HOPING. And to me, thats not bad. Dont take HOPE as a sign of insanity. Every year people still HOPE he'll do well, and i dont really see the negativity in that. HOPE is free, isnt it?

Again, steering away from the initial discussion....i ask you, if he turns it around, will you support him?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Maybe you should consider an open relationship and live happily.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

that was funnier because im picturing Tim, who he said is older than most of us, being in an open relationship, hehehe

[Apollo]

Then why would the Raptors look to trade him IF (and these are big IF's) he:

becomes more efficient scoring with a balanced inside out game,
starting rebounding 7.6 per game (that is Nene numbers),
is able to get his OppPER down to 16-17 range (that is David West numbers),
bring the effort on a consistent basis.


If he does those things, in my opinion, he is a bonafide all-star.

He doesn't even want to contemplate the possibility. Most of what I'm reading is about bringing guys in to shield Bargnani's weaknesses as opposed to bringing in the best guys available to help the whole team. Well, in the scenario we're talking about Bargnani's weakness are far less or gone. This is what GT is missing.

[Nilanka]

But to trade him IF he improves just so his value wont go down again is just hating. And personal, IMO.

It's not hating, it's playing the percentages. If Bargnani does show improvement, it's FAAAAAAAR more likely it's the result of Casey's novelty, rather than a 180 degree change in Bargnani's personality, meaning once the novelty wears off, Bargnani becomes Bargnani again. Better to trade him while he's hot, when it's all but guaranteed he'll eventually resort to his usual self.

Now I fully admit that there's a slight chance Bargnani makes a permanent change for the better, but anyone who suggests it's a 50/50 chance (or greater), is looking through some very rose coloured glasses. After all, Bargnani isn't a rookie with a clean slate. There's 5 years of evidence supporting my argument.

Play the percentages and good things will happen more often than not. Go against the grain when all the numbers tell you otherwise, and you'll fall flat on your face. You might get lucky once in a while (and that's what Bargnani fans are hoping for), but in the grand scheme of things, you're taking 5 steps back to move 1 step forward.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

This "business" term has become a bit of a bad word moreso lately. Isn't it really about how one conducts ones self in the affairs of said business? With integrity, civility, fulfillment of contractual obligation etc etc?

The way I see that LA trade thing is that there was no consummated trade. Word of an impending trade got leaked. I dont know that the Lakers (or anyone else for that matter) was under obligation to inform any of the players that they were under consideration of being traded. Why upset anyone before the deal is done or for that jeopardize it. So, in that sense I believe LO is in fact being overly sensitive about the process. I dont believe the LA gm was being malicious or uncaring if that is what is being implied by LO. And yes I do think LO subjugated his game for his team.

True. It actually made more sense after you explained it.

And putting it into the regular workforce environment, if I found out that my boss was about to get rid of me but changed his mind at the last minute because one of my co-workers quit, id be happy rather than pissed coz well, at least i still have a job! of course id be looking for another one, hehehe

[GarbageTime]

Then why would the Raptors look to trade him IF (and these are big IF's) he:

becomes more efficient scoring with a balanced inside out game,
starting rebounding 7.6 per game (that is Nene numbers),
is able to get his OppPER down to 16-17 range (that is David West numbers),
bring the effort on a consistent basis.


If he does those things, in my opinion, he is a bonafide all-star.

who's saying he should be definetely traded if he does this stuff? Apollo and Tbihis are claiming people will still feel that way about him if he improves, but I've yet to see someone say they still will. That no matter what they will always want Bargnani off this team.

I think there has been a huge assumption made (or maybe developed over time) that the 'haters' actually 'hate' the guy. I think for the most part that is not true (there will ofcourse always be someone who truelly hates someone for one reason or another... but again I'm talking about the majority and not some random individual). I think most 'haters' just don't find what he's done to date as acceptable, that they don't expect things to change, that the team is taking an unwarranted risk, and that the team is and has been wasting time.

[Tim W.]

I get your point, but the problem is, a cheating gf has no room for improvement. You cant monitor her 24 hours a day (unless youre a stalker), she can tell you one thing and do another without you knowing it. The difference with Bargnani is he can say he'll defend, and if he doesnt do it, then Casey will see it, and can show or instruct him on how to improve. Will he disobey? Sure. But im sure he'll get reprimanded. Can you tell your GF not to cheat coz if she does you'll reprimand her? I dont think so.

Also, your GF cheats on you, and you alone. Bargnani couldve "cheated" on Smitch, then Triano, do you think at this point Casey will allow it? Probably not.

And ive said before, once the season starts, history becomes after-the-fact. No one really knows what going to happen during the season. If Bargnani does play the same way he did last season when this season is over, you can go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back but again, its after-the-fact. you cant say he's going be the same way he was last season, unless you have a crystal ball.

The problem with Tim's example is that he's using an example of man with no integrity to make a parallel to a man who's lacked maturity. People naturally mature, they don't naturally grow a conscience. Bargnani's accountability issues have nothing to do with lack of integrity.

You both misunderstand my point. You're both taking it far too literally.

Playing defense and rebounding are not a trait of maturity. They aren't really something you can really teach. The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not mature. It's not that he's simply not taking responsibility for his actions. It comes down to his core personality. He's an easy going guy. That's his personality. You guys are expecting him to become a different type of person. And the chances of that happening are incredibly slim. That's where the history part comes into it and why I brought up the example. You can generally gauge a person's future actions by looking at his past actions.

sorry, but i think i went off topic there for a minute. what was being discussed was IF Bargnani turned it around, should people support him and if they dont, then that just means that its just beyond basketball, well, i can say youre probably one of those people. Even IF Bargnani turns it around, youll still be one of those people who'll have the past 5 seasons hanging over his head. And thats fine with me.

If Bargnani PERMANENTLY turns it around, I'll have no problem. But I'm not going to be suckered into forgetting the past 5 years based on a few weeks of play. I'm also of the belief, though, that the improvements Bargnani would have to make in order to have adequate enough defense and rebounding are beyond his reach. There has simply been nothing that has ever indicated to me differently.

Speaking of which, this whole "I believe in Bargnani" or "I support him" doesn't make much sense to me. First of all, I have no idea how you can have faith in a basketball player you've never met and has never been anything other than what he is. Also, I support the Raptors. I want them to succeed. If I feel something or someone is an impediment to that success, then my reaction is to change or get rid of that impediment. Since I"ve seen NOTHING over the last 5 years to indicate a permanent change, then it simply makes sense to remove the impediment.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

It's not hating, it's playing the percentages. If Bargnani does show improvement, it's FAAAAAAAR more likely it's the result of Casey's novelty, rather than a 180 degree change in Bargnani's personality, meaning once the novelty wears off, Bargnani becomes Bargnani again. Better to trade him while he's hot, when it's all but guaranteed he'll eventually resort to his usual self.

Now I fully admit that there's a slight chance Bargnani makes a permanent change for the better, but anyone who suggests it's a 50/50 chance (or greater), is looking through some very rose coloured glasses. After all, Bargnani isn't a rookie with a clean slate. There's 5 years of evidence supporting my argument.

Play the percentages and good things will happen more often than not. Go against the grain when all the numbers tell you otherwise, and you'll fall flat on your face. You might get lucky once in a while (and that's what Bargnani fans are hoping for), but in the grand scheme of things, you're taking 5 steps back to move 1 step forward.

How would you know that? How would you know that he'll revert back under Casey? Did Casey coach the Raptors before? Was Bargnani ever under Casey's system before? Was he ever made accountable before for lack of action?

And youre missing the point here, its not being argued anymore whether he improves or not, what is being argued is IF he already improves, would you love him or hate him?

Dont turn this into another "he wont improve based on history" argument. This discussion is way past that.

[GarbageTime]

Again, steering away from the initial discussion....i ask you, if he turns it around, will you support him?

ofcourse I would. I've said that many times before and I've never said otherwise. I would be just as excited/happy/content as the next guy.

But, as Nilanka pointed out, it can't just be for a handful of games or part of a season either. It needs to be a long term trend, something sustained and consistent.

[Nilanka]

And putting it into the regular workforce environment, if I found out that my boss was about to get rid of me but changed his mind at the last minute because one of my co-workers quit, id be happy rather than pissed coz well, at least i still have a job! of course id be looking for another one, hehehe

This is a much different scenario than what Bargnani currently finds himself in. The thought of being unemployed is enough to scare anyone straight. But in Bargnani's case, he's got 4 years of guaranteed income. No matter how Bargnani performs this year, he's going to get paid by someone. Apples and oranges.

[Apollo]

It's not hating, it's playing the percentages. If Bargnani does show improvement, it's FAAAAAAAR more likely it's the result of Casey's novelty, rather than a 180 degree change in Bargnani's personality, meaning once the novelty wears off, Bargnani becomes Bargnani again. Better to trade him while he's hot, when it's all but guaranteed he'll eventually resort to his usual self.

Why is it that? Can I see your math on that one? Bargnani is entering a phase where most players mature in both body and mind. I can't put ratios to it but I can use common sense and realize that the natural path of life could bring him to a point where he takes the next step. He seems like a guy here to play and not to just collect a cheque. If he was here just for the money he wouldn't have been the first guy in the gym, he wouldn't be asserting himself as a leader and he wouldn't give a crap about busting his ass to improve his weaknesses. Did Casey drag him to Toronto early? Is Casey making him act like he wants to lead? The doesn't make any sense to me. Casey isn't going to be on the court to kiss his boo boos better when Garnett puts his elbows into him? He's going to have to take that and know when to give it back. We'll know a lot more about him at the end of the season. I think they should and will wait at least to the end of this season.

They aren't really something you can really teach.

You need to research Dennis Rodman Tim.

[Tim W.]

I agree with Apollo and tbihis as well. I don't understand that idea of worrying about the past, when the sport only cares about the current season. IF Bargnani turns it around, then great for the Raptors and what difference does the past five years make to the team going forward? A devil's advocate could argue that had Bargnani turned it around a few seasons ago, the Raps may not have some/all of Valanciunas, Davis and DeRozan... haha, but I digress...

As much as I have been a Bargnani supporter, one of my biggest complaints is when he resorts to long fadeaway jumpers and 3-pointers. I am left with the thought that coaches are as much to blame for that trend as Bargnani - I'm not trying to make an excuse for him, it just seems like that's how the plays are drawn up. If the coach wanted Bargnani to focus more on post play, wouldn't the coach be pissed off and pulling him off the court if he ignored the coach's demands and continued jacking up long shots? As much as riding him for defense and rebounding, I hope Casey forces Bargnani to play inside much more often, because I think he is already a pretty effective post player - when he commits to playing inside. There were games last year where Bargnani would start out something like 3-5 shooting (all inside) with a couple trips to the foul line, then just inexplicably decide to abandon the inside game and I wondered two things: first, why did he decide to play outside all of a sudden; second, if it wasn't the coach's call to move him outside despite inside success, why isn't the coach plunking his ass on the bench?

I am curious to see how Bargnani and the entire team responds to Casey this season and am salivating at the prospect of adding Valanciunas and a stud SF/PG from the draft to the roster next year!

One of your biggest complaints is that he resorts to long jumpers? Really? That's probably something I care least about. Where and how he scores is so low on my list of things I would change about Bargnani that I couldn't care less. Loads of big men have had extremely successful NBA careers and won Championships while mostly taking outside shots.

Amare and Boozer are both players who play inside and bang, but I wouldn't want them on my team because they're both below average defenders and have hurt their teams in the playoffs, in the past, because of it.

As for being curious how Bargnani responds this year, replace "to Casey" with "starting at center" or "without Sam Mitchell riding him" or "with being given extended minutes" or "being the number one option". You'll forgive me if I feel I've heard all this before.

[Nilanka]

How would you know that? How would you know that he'll revert back under Casey? Did Casey coach the Raptors before? Was Bargnani ever under Casey's system before? Was he ever made accountable before for lack of action?

And youre missing the point here, its not being argued anymore whether he improves or not, what is being argued is IF he already improves, would you love him or hate him?

Dont turn this into another "he wont improve based on history" argument. This discussion is way past that.

I don't know that with certainty (I admitted that). But like I said, I have evidence to support my case. You have none to support yours. I have evidence to show you how Bargnani responds to coach's challenges. You have none to show how he responds to Casey. Your stance is based on nothing more than a wish. Mine is based on historical evidence.

Anyways, getting back on topic, and to answer your question, you need to establish a time frame to judge Bargnani's improvements. There's a big difference between improvement for 20 games, and a full season.

If Bargnani turns into Nowitzki, I'll be ecstatic! But I'm also a realist. I hold out as much hope for Bargnani's transformation as I do for winning the 6/49. In other words, I don't think it's wise to plan a strategy hoping an unlikely event happens.

[Tim W.]

How would you know that? How would you know that he'll revert back under Casey? Did Casey coach the Raptors before? Was Bargnani ever under Casey's system before? Was he ever made accountable before for lack of action?

And youre missing the point here, its not being argued anymore whether he improves or not, what is being argued is IF he already improves, would you love him or hate him?

Dont turn this into another "he wont improve based on history" argument. This discussion is way past that.

Why is this discussion past that? The WHOLE POINT about Bargnani is that we've seen the EXACT same thing from him every year, despite coaching changes, player changes and role changes. Was he ever made accountable for his actions? Ever heard of Sam Mitchell? Take a look at how his minutes went down in his second season. That was Mitchell holding him accountable for his actions. And Bargnani fans claimed that Mitchell wasn't giving him a chance. That was why I found their criticism of Triano laughable. They complained that Bargnani was being yanked off the floor too quickly with Mitchell, but then when Triano let him play, they complained no one was holding him accountable.

And what happens if he continues along a similar path under Casey? Should the Raptors get, yet, another coach? Hey, he's never been coached by Jeff Van Gundy. Maybe that's what he needs.

[GarbageTime]

He doesn't even want to contemplate the possibility. Most of what I'm reading is about bringing guys in to shield Bargnani's weaknesses as opposed to bringing in the best guys available to help the whole team. Well, in the scenario we're talking about Bargnani's weakness are far less or gone. This is what GT is missing.

Do I expect Bargnani to change? Not at all. Do I hope he will? Ofcourse.

'Hiding' Bargnani's weaknesses does not change that he has those weaknesses.... and the players necessary to 'hide' those weaknesses are not necessarily the best option, best route or best approach for the team to take. Bargnani either needs to be good enough in some way (eg. offensively) to compensate for his weaknesses, or he has to improve on or eliminate those weaknesses himself.

I get just find that 'hiding' Bargnani's weaknesses doesn't make them as apparent. What you seem to be missing is that there is an opportunity cost to needing to hide them.