Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Matt52]

There is a coach who is very tough/strict/matter-of-fact in his coaching style who speaks very highly of Bargnani. That person of course is Ettore Messina. He was very critical of BC/Raptors this past summer. Messina coached Bargnani for 2 years - 2003/2004 and 2004/2005.

[Hugmenot]

If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be pleasantly surprised. But those 20 games will not make me forget about the previous 367 games he's played.

If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be amazed. If he maintains his 1:4 ORR historical ratio, that means he would average 7.2 DR a game, or a 24% DRR based upon 35-36 mpg.

In my opinion, that's a very, very high bar to set to just be pleasently surprised.

I would be very happy if he (defensive) rebounded at an average rate for a big (19-20%) and continue rebounding at his historical OR:OR ratio. This would translate into 7.0 to 7.4 total rebounds per game.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

One of your biggest complaints is that he resorts to long jumpers? Really? That's probably something I care least about. Where and how he scores is so low on my list of things I would change about Bargnani that I couldn't care less. Loads of big men have had extremely successful NBA careers and won Championships while mostly taking outside shots.

Amare and Boozer are both players who play inside and bang, but I wouldn't want them on my team because they're both below average defenders and have hurt their teams in the playoffs, in the past, because of it.

As for being curious how Bargnani responds this year, replace "to Casey" with "starting at center" or "without Sam Mitchell riding him" or "with being given extended minutes" or "being the number one option". You'll forgive me if I feel I've heard all this before.

Well forgive me if your comment seems a little hypocritical. Whenever anybody mentions Bargnani's PPG, you're usually the first person jumping up to argue that he gets his PPG inefficiently. My point was that he could be a much more efficient scorer and give the team addtional opportunities to score more, if he took a higher % of his shots from in the post, instead of resorting to much lower % long 2's and 3's. The whole crux of my point was to address one of your most vocal complaints about Bargnani's offense, yet you still found a way to turn it against him! lol outstanding

And before you tear into me about how a more efficient Bargnani on the offensive end will still not makeup for his shortcomings on the defensive end, please note that in my original post I mentioned the goal of improved offensive efficiency IN ADDITION to Casey demanding much needed improvement on defense and rebounding from Bargnani - which I 100% believe can be learned.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

You both misunderstand my point. You're both taking it far too literally.

Playing defense and rebounding are not a trait of maturity. They aren't really something you can really teach. The problem with Bargnani is not that he's not mature. It's not that he's simply not taking responsibility for his actions. It comes down to his core personality. He's an easy going guy. That's his personality. You guys are expecting him to become a different type of person. And the chances of that happening are incredibly slim. That's where the history part comes into it and why I brought up the example. You can generally gauge a person's future actions by looking at his past actions.



If Bargnani PERMANENTLY turns it around, I'll have no problem. But I'm not going to be suckered into forgetting the past 5 years based on a few weeks of play. I'm also of the belief, though, that the improvements Bargnani would have to make in order to have adequate enough defense and rebounding are beyond his reach. There has simply been nothing that has ever indicated to me differently.

Speaking of which, this whole "I believe in Bargnani" or "I support him" doesn't make much sense to me. First of all, I have no idea how you can have faith in a basketball player you've never met and has never been anything other than what he is. Also, I support the Raptors. I want them to succeed. If I feel something or someone is an impediment to that success, then my reaction is to change or get rid of that impediment. Since I"ve seen NOTHING over the last 5 years to indicate a permanent change, then it simply makes sense to remove the impediment.

not sure how else you can take that statement. I suggest next time, just say it directly and not use any hyperbole so "you wont be taken literally".

im not sure if youve seen his interviews lately, but i can say, he's no easy going guy. he seems pissed and agitated everytime someone mentions defense and rebounding. and i think thats a good sign coz if he didnt care, why would he be pissed? he knows he wasnt as good in the past and now its coming back to bite him.

We are in agreement here, we both want whats best for the raptors. But we have different views on what that "best" is. And nobody is telling you to form a relationship with the guy, you dont have to know him personally. I guess some people just assume that you support the team, you support the players. I guess with you as an example, its not always the case then.

[Apollo]

Do I expect Bargnani to change? Not at all. Do I hope he will? Ofcourse.

'Hiding' Bargnani's weaknesses does not change that he has those weaknesses.... and the players necessary to 'hide' those weaknesses are not necessarily the best option, best route or best approach for the team to take. Bargnani either needs to be good enough in some way (eg. offensively) to compensate for his weaknesses, or he has to improve on or eliminate those weaknesses himself.

I get just find that 'hiding' Bargnani's weaknesses doesn't make them as apparent. What you seem to be missing is that there is an opportunity cost to needing to hide them.

See, you did it again. You've missed the boat, you're in the ocean and there are fishes swimming by!

We're talking about the scenario where Bargnani's weaknesses on the glass and on defense are no more. In such a scenario what are you "hiding"? People do improve on their weaknesses. It's a real thing you know. Sometimes people do turn a weakness into a strength. My point is let's wait until the end of the season and see where he's at because right now he's sounds like he's finally matured and right now he's finally received a good coach who has the freedom to do what needs to be done.

All this stuff about "hiding his weaknesses" is irrelevant to what were are discussing in this particular thread.

[GarbageTime]

If Bargnani comes out and averages 9 boards per game for the first 20 games, I will be amazed. If he maintains his 1:4 ORR historical ratio, that means he would average 7.2 DR a game, or a 24% DRR based upon 35-36 mpg.

In my opinion, that's a very, very high bar to set to just be pleasently surprised.

I would be very happy if he (defensive) rebounded at an average rate for a big (19-20%) and continue rebounding at his historical OR:OR ratio. This would translate into 7.0 to 7.4 total rebounds per game.

Bargnani's 'bar' for rebounding (or defense) should be no less than what one expects for any other 'average' player. Averaging 9-10 rebounds a game (over 36 minutes) is actually quite average for a big in the NBA. The one thing most big men are lacking to achieve that is getting enough minutes to do it.

But yes that does mean Bargnani needs to almost double his rebounding from last year or increase it by (approx.) 25% from his career averages.

[Tim W.]

Why is it that? Can I see your math on that one? Bargnani is entering a phase where most players mature in both body and mind. I can't put ratios to it but I can use common sense and realize that the natural path of life could bring him to a point where he takes the next step. He seems like a guy here to play and not to just collect a cheque. If he was here just for the money he wouldn't have been the first guy in the gym, he wouldn't be asserting himself as a leader and he wouldn't give a crap about busting his ass to improve his weaknesses. Did Casey drag him to Toronto early? Is Casey making him act like he wants to lead? The doesn't make any sense to me. Casey isn't going to be on the court to kiss his boo boos better when Garnett puts his elbows into him? He's going to have to take that and know when to give it back. We'll know a lot more about him at the end of the season. I think they should and will wait at least to the end of this season.

You need to research Dennis Rodman Tim.

Since I followed the Pistons very closely at that time, I can tell you I don't really need to research Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman did enter the NBA late, at 25, but he was always a good rebounder and defender who worked hard on the court. Always. Even in college. It's true that he did mature (somewhat) but it didn't change who he was.

You're trying to equate Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding with maturity and I don't get it. I think it's great that he's in better shape than he ever has been. That's maturity. We've seen the same thing from Josh Smith, this year. The thing is, though, that Josh Smith was always a very good defender and decent rebounder. His problem has always been a lack of maturity.

Kris Humphries is another perfect example. His first 5 years in the league, he never came to grips with the fact that he would never be a star in the NBA. Then he matured and found his role and flourished. The thing was, though, that he always was a good rebounder and defender. It's just his inability to embrace his role made him shoot too much and try to do too much on the court.

So if maturity does it, why not re-sign Patrick O'Bryant again? He's always had the potential to be a very good center- size, athleticism, skills etc. His problem has always been focus and maturity. And he's now 25 so he should be coming up to that age where people naturally mature.

Maturity never made Boozer into a good defender. Or Corey Maggette. Or Jamal Crawford. Or Al Harrington. All of them had the physical ability to become good defenders. Some of them even had good defensive coaches.

[GarbageTime]

See, you did it again. You've missed the boat, you're in the ocean and there are fishes swimming by!

We're talking about the scenario where Bargnani's weaknesses on the glass and on defense are no more. I such a scenario what are you hiding? People do improve on their weaknesses. It's a real thing you know. Sometimes people do turn a weakness into a strength. My point is let's wait until the end of the season and see where he's at because right now he's sounds like he's finally matured and right now he's finally received a good coach who has the freedom to do what needs to be done.

I didn't miss the boat Apollo... you decided to change the route mid journey and then get back on course when I jumped off.

I think you need to read what I've been saying again.

Never have I said that I, or anyone, wouldn't support Bargnani IF he changed. It was you who said people wouldn't if he did.

[Tim W.]

Well forgive me if your comment seems a little hypocritical. Whenever anybody mentions Bargnani's PPG, you're usually the first person jumping up to argue that he gets his PPG inefficiently. My point was that he could be a much more efficient scorer and give the team addtional opportunities to score more, if he took a higher % of his shots from in the post, instead of resorting to much lower % long 2's and 3's. The whole crux of my point was to address one of your most vocal complaints about Bargnani's offense, yet you still found a way to turn it against him! lol outstanding

And before you tear into me about how a more efficient Bargnani on the offensive end will still not makeup for his shortcomings on the defensive end, please note that in my original post I mentioned the goal of improved offensive efficiency IN ADDITION to Casey demanding much needed improvement on defense and rebounding from Bargnani - which I 100% believe can be learned.

I've always said I didn't have a problem with how Bargnani scores, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good enough scorer to be a #1 option on a good team. That's where my problem lies. Not with him but with how people portray his scoring ability. And Bargnani's problem is that he's simply not a good enough scorer to excuse his defense and rebounding.

It's like saying a woman is good looking, and then someone saying she could be a supermodel. There's a big difference between a good looking woman and a supermodel.

Bargnani is a good scorer, but not great. It's not his scoring I have a problem with but the rest of his game. In fact, I have, in the past, defended how he scores. I've discussed how Bill Laimbeer had no post moves and took a lot of threes. I've brought up Arvydas Sabonis. The thing about those two was that they also defended and rebounded.

[Tim W.]

not sure how else you can take that statement. I suggest next time, just say it directly and not use any hyperbole so "you wont be taken literally".

im not sure if youve seen his interviews lately, but i can say, he's no easy going guy. he seems pissed and agitated everytime someone mentions defense and rebounding. and i think thats a good sign coz if he didnt care, why would he be pissed? he knows he wasnt as good in the past and now its coming back to bite him.

We are in agreement here, we both want whats best for the raptors. But we have different views on what that "best" is. And nobody is telling you to form a relationship with the guy, you dont have to know him personally. I guess some people just assume that you support the team, you support the players. I guess with you as an example, its not always the case then.

I've said it directly, but it never seems to work. Hyperbole makes people see it in a different way, which I thought would help.

As for his interviews, I almost never watch player interviews because they generally tell you nothing. I care about actions, not words.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Why is this discussion past that? The WHOLE POINT about Bargnani is that we've seen the EXACT same thing from him every year, despite coaching changes, player changes and role changes. Was he ever made accountable for his actions? Ever heard of Sam Mitchell? Take a look at how his minutes went down in his second season. That was Mitchell holding him accountable for his actions. And Bargnani fans claimed that Mitchell wasn't giving him a chance. That was why I found their criticism of Triano laughable. They complained that Bargnani was being yanked off the floor too quickly with Mitchell, but then when Triano let him play, they complained no one was holding him accountable.

And what happens if he continues along a similar path under Casey? Should the Raptors get, yet, another coach? Hey, he's never been coached by Jeff Van Gundy. Maybe that's what he needs.

Its not about if he improves, its already IF he improves, then what?

I think you expected way too much of him during his rookie year and maybe Mitchell did as well. But thats a different discussion altogether.

Nope, dont get another coach. Trade him. I think thats what everybody's been saying, if you were paying attention. If he doesnt improve, trade him. But if he improves, see how he fits, but if a better deal comes along, trade him. That what we've been saying, incase you werent paying attention.

[Nilanka]

My point is let's wait until the end of the season and see where he's at because right now he's sounds like he's finally matured and right now he's finally received a good coach who has the freedom to do what needs to be done.

GarbageTime touched on this. By waiting another year on Bargnani, we're taking some minutes away from both Davis and Amir. Shouldn't that loss be taken into the discussion? Wouldn't Davis and Amir's development be expedited if we weren't still holding out hope for Bargnani.

And no matter how much it's discussed, I just can't understand how some people can dismiss 5 years of evidence so easily. 5 years is a very, very, very long time. Historical evidence should be the highest weighted factor when judging a player's worth. Everything else is just guess work...and guessing is no way to run a successful business.

But at the end of the day, we can all agree on one thing. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, we're all very passionate Raptor fans

[Apollo]

Since I followed the Pistons very closely at that time, I can tell you I don't really need to research Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman did enter the NBA late, at 25, but he was always a good rebounder and defender who worked hard on the court. Always. Even in college. It's true that he did mature (somewhat) but it didn't change who he was.

And I guess you missed all the well publicized stories about how he was a student of the game and attributed his outstanding rebound abilities to studying game film, knowing his opponents, practicing hard and working hard in game situations? You'll never hear Rodman tell anyone he's naturally a good rebounder. He takes pride the fact that he earned it. He's a shining example of what can happen when someone commits to being great at something. I don't think for a second Bargnani will ever be able to rebound like Rodman but I do believe that if he's matured, like it seems he has and what Casey is saying is the truth then Bargnani can become at least adequate in his weak areas. We'll have a decent idea by the end of the season. You can't fake defense and you can't fake grabbing rebounds. This isn't Hollywood.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I've said it directly, but it never seems to work. Hyperbole makes people see it in a different way, which I thought would help.

As for his interviews, I almost never watch player interviews because they generally tell you nothing. I care about actions, not words.

Im not sure what you mean by "never seems to work". Are you trying to change people's minds? Maybe thats why you get so worked up all the time, its not about changing people's minds here. You say your piece and respect the other's opinion. Nobody's right or wrong here, its a forum. Its not a "make the world a better place" type thing.

Thats fine. I think its a part of the game. I get an insight of what theyre doing, thinking of improving, plans for the season, etc. But you do listen to Colangelo when he says he's been saying stuff about Bargnani and from what he said before, you assumed that he was on the verge of trading Bargnani or at least trading him this season, right? Interesting.....

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

GarbageTime touched on this. By waiting another year on Bargnani, we're taking some minutes away from both Davis and Amir. Shouldn't that loss be taken into the discussion? Wouldn't Davis and Amir's development be expedited if we weren't still holding out hope for Bargnani.

And no matter how much it's discussed, I just can't understand how some people can dismiss 5 years of evidence so easily. 5 years is a very, very, very long time. Historical evidence should be the highest weighted factor when judging a player's worth. Everything else is just guess work...and guessing is no way to run a successful business.

But at the end of the day, we can all agree on one thing. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, we're all very passionate Raptor fans

See this is why i like discussing with Nilanka, you can always argue, but there's always this kicker in the end that seems to say "we kick each other in the face, but we're still all friends!" that i like. let bygones be bygones.

[Tim W.]

Its not about if he improves, its already IF he improves, then what?

I think you expected way too much of him during his rookie year and maybe Mitchell did as well. But thats a different discussion altogether.

Nope, dont get another coach. Trade him. I think thats what everybody's been saying, if you were paying attention. If he doesnt improve, trade him. But if he improves, see how he fits, but if a better deal comes along, trade him. That what we've been saying, incase you werent paying attention.

It's not just about IF he improves, it's about whether he can sustain it. And that's where personality comes in. Bargnani certainly has the ability to average double digit rebounds. Physically, there's nothing stopping him. He's even had some big rebound games. The problem lies with sustaining it over a long period of time. That's what separates players. The ability to sustain over of the course of a season.

And I'm not sure why you though I expected too much of Bargnani during his rookie season. I actually expected very little. I wasn't talking about his rookie season. Bargnani's playing time actually went DOWN in his second season. And it wasn't until Mitchell was fired that he was able to get consistent minutes.

As for your assertion that if he doesn't change then trade him, why is this time different from the other times? There are always excuses to be had. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of people here who used to be a fan of Bargnani, but slowly got sick of him not progressing. For me, I wanted him gone as soon as he was drafted because he was a big man who couldn't rebound or play defense, and I don't believe you can win with that. For others it was after his second season, when he regressed. For others it was when he started the whole season beside Bosh and still didn't improve his defense or rebounding. For others it was after he became "the man" on offense and his defense and rebounding actually got worse.

You can always move the "line". I've seen it moved many times.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I've always said I didn't have a problem with how Bargnani scores, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good enough scorer to be a #1 option on a good team. That's where my problem lies. Not with him but with how people portray his scoring ability. And Bargnani's problem is that he's simply not a good enough scorer to excuse his defense and rebounding.

It's like saying a woman is good looking, and then someone saying she could be a supermodel. There's a big difference between a good looking woman and a supermodel.

Bargnani is a good scorer, but not great. It's not his scoring I have a problem with but the rest of his game. In fact, I have, in the past, defended how he scores. I've discussed how Bill Laimbeer had no post moves and took a lot of threes. I've brought up Arvydas Sabonis. The thing about those two was that they also defended and rebounded.

I think youve said in the past that he's a scorer but not an efficient one. I dont know how that can be labeled as "defending".

[Tim W.]

And I guess you missed all the well publicized stories about how he was a student of the game and attributed his outstanding rebound abilities to studying game film, knowing his opponents, practicing hard and working hard in game situations? You'll never hear Rodman tell anyone he's naturally a good rebounder. He takes pride the fact that he earned it. He's a shining example of what can happen when someone commits to being great at something. I don't think for a second Bargnani will ever be able to rebound like Rodman but I do believe that if he's matured, like it seems he has and what Casey is saying is the truth then Bargnani can become at least adequate in his weak areas. We'll have a decent idea by the end of the season. You can't fake defense and you can't fake grabbing rebounds. This isn't Hollywood.

Yes, I've read and heard him talk about how he became such a great rebounder. But he's also naturally a very good rebounder because he's a hustler. That's his personality. Take a look at his college stats. He averaged 15.7 rpg over the course of his college career.

I'm not suggesting that rebounding well doesn't require hard work. I'm suggesting that you need to have a penchant for rebounding to being with.

Besides, rebounding is only part of Bargnani's problem. And he's got a LONG way to go to be adequate on defense.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

See this is why i like discussing with Nilanka, you can always argue, but there's always this kicker in the end that seems to say "we kick each other in the face, but we're still all friends!" that i like. let bygones be bygones.

Amen.

I said something similar in a thread last week, that I enjoy the discussion and differing opinions (my god wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed about every detail about everything Raptors???) posed by fans here on RR. I definitely have my own opinions (just ask my wife!) and I enjoy posting them and backing them up with the logic/rationale as to why I arrived at those opinions, but I'm never expecting/trying to change anybody else's mind. I don't think I'm right, I just know I have a valid opinion that is undoubtedly shared by at least some portion of the Raptors fan base. Regardless whether I'm 'righter' or 'wronger' than any other posters, I enjoy the discussion and debate among passionate fans - when done respectfully.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

It's not just about IF he improves, it's about whether he can sustain it. And that's where personality comes in. Bargnani certainly has the ability to average double digit rebounds. Physically, there's nothing stopping him. He's even had some big rebound games. The problem lies with sustaining it over a long period of time. That's what separates players. The ability to sustain over of the course of a season.

And I'm not sure why you though I expected too much of Bargnani during his rookie season. I actually expected very little. I wasn't talking about his rookie season. Bargnani's playing time actually went DOWN in his second season. And it wasn't until Mitchell was fired that he was able to get consistent minutes.

As for your assertion that if he doesn't change then trade him, why is this time different from the other times? There are always excuses to be had. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of people here who used to be a fan of Bargnani, but slowly got sick of him not progressing. For me, I wanted him gone as soon as he was drafted because he was a big man who couldn't rebound or play defense, and I don't believe you can win with that. For others it was after his second season, when he regressed. For others it was when he started the whole season beside Bosh and still didn't improve his defense or rebounding. For others it was after he became "the man" on offense and his defense and rebounding actually got worse.

You can always move the "line". I've seen it moved many times.

Well, i dont know how you can say he wont be able to "sustain" it if he improves. Didnt you say before that he's never shown improvement the past 5 years? Where are you basing that he cant "sustain" it when youve said you havent seen him improve? Personality? You just said you dont listen to interviews, how can you know a players personality by just watching him move? Some people who walk or move slow doesnt me theyre slow in the head. You can tell a lot about a person's personality when he talks.

Well, he went from 25 to 23. not that significant to me. It wasnt like he was the franchise player that time or a Kobe or John Wall that they expected massive production from, and they had Rasho who was pretty much play well as well. And i dont deny the fact that Mitchell did discipline him, im sure he did but can you really compare a sophomore Bargnani to the now Bargnani?

I too think it would have been a lot better for the team if he was moved after he was drafted, heck, it probably would have been better if he was never drafted by the Raptors. But unfortunately they did, and things that transpired after are what they are now. Again, we're not saying he will improve, its IF he improves. You want to trade him, some of us dont. So you can keep drawing as many lines as you want, ill keep moving them if he keeps improving.