Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[RaptorsFan4Life]

He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.

You really expect him to be amazing at D when he is just starting to learn a completely new system and while only having a short training camp?

[JoePanini]

He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.

Based solely on this game, I think it's pretty encouraging what we see from Bargnani. Effort and hard work will pay off if he can consistently provide it, he has the body and the skills to do it. This is just a small step in Bargnani's "rehabilitation" and whether he will "make it" or "break it". And I know I'm slightly biased because I've always been a Bargnani fan, but he was one of the best players out there, second only to Davis in my opinion.

[Tim W.]

Bargnani's body is significantly "tighter" and more toned now.

Plus, his ass looked like you could eat ice cream off of it!

[JoePanini]

Plus, his ass looked like you could eat ice cream off of it!

I'd think that gelato would be more appropriate

[Tim W.]

You really expect him to be amazing at D when he is just starting to learn a completely new system and while only having a short training camp?

I've never understood this defense to criticism. It doesn't make sense. It's like if you say Transformers was a horrible movie, someone will invariably defend it by saying it's not meant to be an Academy Award winner, as if there is nothing in between awful and Academy Award level.

I never said I expected Bargnani's defense to be amazing. Just adequate. And I didn't find it even at that level. Of course, I felt the same about most other Raptors today, as I mentioned, so he's in good company.

As for him learning a new system, it's instincts that I'm looking for. And I still don't see them with him. A new system isn't going to change that.

[Tim W.]

Based solely on this game, I think it's pretty encouraging what we see from Bargnani. Effort and hard work will pay off if he can consistently provide it, he has the body and the skills to do it. This is just a small step in Bargnani's "rehabilitation" and whether he will "make it" or "break it". And I know I'm slightly biased because I've always been a Bargnani fan, but he was one of the best players out there, second only to Davis in my opinion.

Yes, I'd say he was second to Davis, although I don't really know how much that says, considering the rest of the team was not impressive at all. And effort is great but if the instincts aren't there it won't matter.

[Tim W.]

I'd think that gelato would be more appropriate

My apologies. You're right.

[Vincent]

I have always been a fan of his. Bargnani has all the tools and when he is engaged and making efforts he is a very capable player. The problem when he was coached by Triano he was quite often not focusing. I was at the game today, and I was watching him carefully. He did not look out of place and he really was moving his feet well.

[JoePanini]

Yes, I'd say he was second to Davis, although I don't really know how much that says, considering the rest of the team was not impressive at all. And effort is great but if the instincts aren't there it won't matter.

Effort is a start, it's pathetic but Bargnani never even gave that so it's already encouraging what Casey has done. As for instincts, I don't fully agree. You don't need instincts, albeit having them are a huge bonus. If Bargnani is in an environment where he is held accountable for what he does, and he is constantly thought how to defend, how to rebound and constantly plays hard and well in trainings it becomes almost a comfort or a habit. He probably won't be great at them, but he can be good. This, of course, is all hypothetical.

[WhatWhat]

If the juicy draft pick is top ten in 2012 then I'd be fine with that but I think we're being unfair to the guy when we're saying the guy absolutely must be an all-star to keep him over Amir or Ed. Amir and Ed won't be close to all-star level anytime soon. Bargnani gets the points and if he brings the rebounds this season and moving forward he could very well make an all-star game. Not sure how likely that is but he passed the first test. He has a whole lot more of them.

I'm saying that not the he has to actually has to make an All-Star game, but if he does everything that he's supposed to do, than he'll be at that level anyway. It's also the point that Ed nor Amir will likely never make an All-Star Game. We're going to have to move one of the 3 down the line. If we going to keep Bargnani, it must be very obvious that we should do so-playing like a near all-star, to keep him over younger, cheaper, more productive players with better motors and work ethics. Right now, it's been obvious that we should trade Bargnani. I'm not being unfair. You know what's unfair? Ed playing 20 minutes is unfair. Amir and Davis having to scrounge for minutes because of an inefficient offensively, who's a historically bad rebounder, and atrocious defender is unfair. Bargnani should not have even been given this final chance in the first place; his play last season was completely disgraceful and inexcusable. I mean, he's still here because of his potential and talent, right?

I'm happy with the effort and everything, and if he somehow keeps it up, everything should come. But there's five years of evidence and like...damn near everything we know about human nature to suggest that he very likely won't be able to keep this up long term.

[planetmars]

*DISCLAIMER - Most are well aware this is just one game and one game does not erase 5 years*



With the disclaimer out of the way, the question remains:

If Bargnani could always give the effort and play like he did in the first pre-season game of 2011-12, would you want him as part of the Toronto Raptors moving forward?

It's extremely hypothetical as you have asked us to erase the last 5 years. I cannot do that unfortunately. In the last 5 years, I have seen Bargnani play with a lot of effort on both sides, but it fades quickly. I have never enjoyed watching him shoot inefficiently especially when he takes a lot of jump shots. Those provide instant rebounds for the opposing team, which allows them to either go on a fast break or setup a play on the offensive end. The deer caught in a headlight routine is laughable.

The past 5 years have haunted me so much unfortunately. No matter how good he plays in the next 20-30 games, I will not want him on my team. Even if he makes it to the all-star game this year, I wouldn't want him here next year. David Lee was an all-star. I wouldn't want him on my team either.

[ceez]

His trade value will never be higher sell sell sell

[ceez]

that's what i yelled at the beginning of the 4th

[ceez]

we'll leave it at that

[SuperRaptor]

It was very encouraging to see the raptors play solid defense like they did. I think Andrea played great, his shot wasnt falling but he almost had a double double. I see him maintaining this level of effort because I think Casey will continue riding him all year on the defense and rebounding. If the raptors and Bargnani can make so much of an improvement with 1 week of training camp, then its nice to think about how much we can improve given a few months or so.

Defense is nothing but effort and work ethic. Triano was not able to get the most effort from the players on that end of the court, Casey is able to. It has less to do with "defensive schemes" and more to do with getting the players to buy into it.

I would definately keep Bargnani if he keeps playing like this.

[Tim W.]

I have always been a fan of his. Bargnani has all the tools and when he is engaged and making efforts he is a very capable player. The problem when he was couched by Triano he was quite often not focusing. I was at the game today, and I was watching him carefully. He did not look out of place and he really was moving his feet well.

Bargnani has the PHYSICAL tools, but that's only half the battle. Defense isn't just hard work. If it were, Reggie Evans would be the Defensive Player of the Year.

[RaptorDan]

Bargnani played defense quite well today, though his offense was a bit lacking. All in all a good effort and quite encouraging.

While I liked what I saw from Bargs, I really didn't like what I saw from Bayless. Dreadful. Hopefully he'll turn things around.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

Bargnani played defense quite well today, though his offense was a bit lacking. All in all a good effort and quite encouraging.

While I liked what I saw from Bargs, I really didn't like what I saw from Bayless. Dreadful. Hopefully he'll turn things around.

Well the offensive system isn't completely set up yet. Casey said it's about 50% right now, so they didn't really work on any specific plays for player like Rautins said.

[Matt52]

I'd think that gelato would be more appropriate

Yes. The type of frozen dessert was the only thing wrong with that statement - lol.

[Matt52]

He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.

DOn't forget what we saw was just the result of 12 days of work with Casey.


And you are right, the offense will come.