Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[heinz57]

He didn't seem like the type to get too bent out of shape by personal criticisms/attacks on the interweb; seemed pretty level-headed for that level of insecurity, IMO.

were you not here in the multipaul days? tim w vs. multipaul was a daily source of comedy for me

even though i may have butted heads with tim a few times... and i rarely agree with him... i appreciated his contributions here.. a shitty forum is one where everyone agrees

can't knock a well informed contributor, even if you think he's wrong

[Soft Euro]

I'm not sure what happened to Tim. Perhaps he's waiting for Bargnani to falter before he comments on him again? That might be a long vacation based on what I've seen so far.

budahfan, haven't heard that name in a long time. He certainly would be within his rights to be dropping excessive "told ya so" comments around here if he hadn't gone MIA long, long ago.

Tim W. commented last on RaptorsHQ on january 2th I think ... (yeah I keep track), so he probably isn't on a vacation. Budha posts comments on there as well, regularly I believe.

[EDIT] Ironic, though, that this discussion of "wherefore Tim W." is being played out in the "Everything Bargnani" thread... I guess it goes to show how much Tim has become defined here by his opinions of one player. I agree that he has a lot of good thoughts to add on the Raptors in general, so hopefully he'll be back.

The two Raptors who used to be high volume shooters, Bargnani and Tim. As I said somewhere earlier: I think we can see Tim back after a 5-10 game losing streak.

[Apollo]

Bargnani, who had 10 points and 10 rebounds before leaving for the night, is expected to have an MRI on Thursday to assess the damage. With the Raptors off for the day following three games in three nights, it won’t be until Friday before they have to figure out what they’ll do.

“He doesn’t even remember doing it,” said Casey of his star big man, who had been averaging more than 24 points per game. “It’s a lot of fatigue. You see a lot of it around the league right now as far as fatigue, pulls and that sort of thing.”

Source: The Star

So Bargnani checks out and the offense struggles. He's been criticized for not being able to carry a team on his own after going #1 overall but it seems this year his contributions have been resulting in the Raptors being far more competitive. I'm almost hoping he doesn't play Friday, just to see how the team plays in his absence.

[planetmars]

Moderators please feel free to merge this into the Bargnani thread. I just wanted to start a discussion on this topic first.


A lot of guys on the forum believe that Bargnani could be our franchise player. The way he's been playing the first 10 games has been a pleasant surprise. I still doubt if he can co-exist with a stud SF, but that's besides the point.

Has Bargnani peaked this season? Is this season the best we will ever get from him?

If we are a bad team now and are building towards the future, would it make more sense to trade Bargnani now while he has peaked before he degrades in performance?

I found the following article today:
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012...-scorers-peak/

It lists the average age that NBA top scorers have peaked. It shows that the average age is at around 25 years. There are some exceptions of course (Hakeem peaked at 32, Pettit at 29 and Robinson at 28), but for the most part a scorer peaked at 25/26.

Bargnani is 26 this year. He'll be 27 next season and if he hasn't peaked this year there is a big chance he'll peak next year.

The average number of years according to the article would be about 5 years. This year is Bargnani's 6th year.

Is it worthwhile to keep Bargnani when we probably won't be a good team until 2014/2015, when Bargnani turns 29/30? I think Bargnani has been playing lights out, but I'm still not sold on him as a future piece for our core. If we trade Bargnani then we could move Davis into the starting rotation and try and land a better SF (or PG) or another lottery pick in 2012 so we can get younger assets that can grow together. Bargnani could play for another 7/8 years, but those years could be worse off than he's playing this year. Is that a gamble worth taking?

I'm not blind to the fact that science and technology has improved since the 50's and 60's, so a player should be able to play longer at a more consistent level, but peaking and playing for a long time are two different things.

I guess Bargnani has proven that he could be the exception to the rule. Play fairly lousy (ie, one dimensionally) for 5 years, and then play like he's an alien in his 6th year... so he may not fit the average nba'er - but I'm still worried that this might be the best we'll ever get from him.

Thoughts?

[joey_hesketh]

Unreal. The guy finally starts playing the way we expected him to, and as soon as he does, we start questioning if he can give us more?

We've always wanted 20-10 from him with solid effort and good defense. He's doing all of that.
Even if this is his 'peak', I'd be fine with that, as he's playing like an All-Star and would be playing like the best player on a Really good team. Not just a bad team.

[planetmars]

Unreal. The guy finally starts playing the way we expected him to, and as soon as he does, we start questioning if he can give us more?

We've always wanted 20-10 from him with solid effort and good defense. He's doing all of that.
Even if this is his 'peak', I'd be fine with that, as he's playing like an All-Star and would be playing like the best player on a Really good team. Not just a bad team.

I am really happy for the guy. He's finally showing us what we wanted. But we are a rebuilding team.

It took the guy 6 years to get to where we want him to be. But this *might* be the best we get. We are building the team for the future though. Is it good to have a guy with all-star credentials who has peaked now? Or should we swing him for someone that has not yet peaked but will give the same all-star like credentials in say 2 or 3 years when we do start becoming a better team?

[Apollo]

I don't follow this. They slaved away trying to get through to him and now it looks like they may finally have him to point that he's an important piece to a developing winning culture. So instead of moving forward next year with him and with a potential elite center of the future, some other great core pieces and a 2012 lottery pick we should trade Bargnani and take on someone who isn't developed, who may not develop but is younger, all so that we can align the stars perfectly? I don't agree with this. I think it's risky and I really don't see the point. They have lots of young guys to develop already and have at least two more on the way this summer. The guy is young and doesn't depend very much at all on athleticism to produce. He could continue to grow and I don't think you'll see him regress too much until he's well into his 30's. I mean look at Dirk Nowitzki, who is another skilled big man that doesn't depend much on athleticism, who is seven years older than Bargnani and is still producing on an elite level. If he's finally arrived and establishes that clearly then you roll with him and if one day he doesn't fit in with the movement you then trade him. Building from within isn't consistently being one of the youngest teams in the league, it's about consistently adding pieces via the draft and lifting young prospect from other teams. Colangelo is doing that.

I'm not against trading him, I'm just against trading him for players who are rough around the edges and who may not produce a return on the investment. To suffer through years of growing pains to then just trade him and watch him achieve elsewhere just seems like a bad joke to me if it involves then taking a gamble on developing someone else's prospects.

[CT2010]

I am really happy for the guy. He's finally showing us what we wanted. But we are a rebuilding team.

It took the guy 6 years to get to where we want him to be. But this *might* be the best we get. We are building the team for the future though. Is it good to have a guy with all-star credentials who has peaked now? Or should we swing him for someone that has not yet peaked but will give the same all-star like credentials in say 2 or 3 years when we do start becoming a better team?

Hey Fellas, do you think Demar, Ed, Amir, Jose have all peaked? We should probably be looking to trade them all. I have to admit I have been pleasantly surprised that the comments have mostly been positive surrounding Bargnani with his added effort, especially from guys that have called for his public execution for years. But every once in a while there is somebody who can't quite come to terms with the fact that he is an elite player and leave him alone for a week.

You should be more worried about Demar, Ed Davis and our SF position. They have all looked terrible and although I like and support all the players on the Raptors, I am genuinely worried that Demar does not have what it takes to be the player we all hoped he would be. His deficiencies are so glaring now that the others have stepped up their games. I hope that he finds a way to improve and remain part of our future plans.

[planetmars]

I don't follow this. They slaved away trying to get through to him and now it looks like they may finally have him to point that he's an important piece to a developing winning culture. So instead of moving forward next year with him and with a potential elite center of the future, some other great core pieces and a 2012 lottery pick we should trade Bargnani and take on someone who isn't developed, who may not develop but is younger, all so that we can align the stars perfectly? I don't agree with this. I think it's risky and I really don't see the point. They have lots of young guys to develop already and have at least two more on the way this summer. The guy is young and doesn't depend very much at all on athleticism to produce. He could continue to grow and I don't think you'll see him regress too much until he's well into his 30's. I mean look at Dirk Nowitzki, who is another skilled big man that doesn't depend much on athleticism, who is seven years older than Bargnani and is still producing on an elite level. If he's finally arrived and establishes that clearly then you roll with him and if one day he doesn't fit in with the movement you then trade him. Building from within isn't consistently being one of the youngest teams in the league, it's about consistently adding pieces via the draft and lifting young prospect from other teams. Colangelo is doing that.

I'm not against trading him, I'm just against trading him for players who are rough around the edges and who may not produce a return on the investment. To suffer through years of growing pains to then just trade him and watch him achieve elsewhere just seems like a bad joke to me if it involves then taking a gamble on developing someone else's prospects.

I get your logic, but Bargnani is inferior compared to Dirk, and Dirk peaked at 27. So if going by this logic next year will be Bargnani's best year. After that he will decline. Dirk is a great player, but him producing the way he is in his 30's in no way can be compared to the player he was in his late 20's. And Dallas was one of the oldest teams in the league last year, and had a lot of veteran talent (JKidd, Chandler, Marion, Terry). Our team won't have that until maybe 2015/2016. So do we hold on to Bargnani until we have a good solid veteran team around him?

I would also argue that Nowitski and Bargnani are both athletic big men. They don't need to bang down low, and use their quickness to their advantage. Once Bargnani's quickness goes, it will be harder for him to get his shot off, and will be harder to move to another team.

As for aligning the stars perfectly - I think that's really the best way to win a title. If you can't force the stars to be aligned (*cough* Miami), then you pretty much have to do it with the draft (ie, OKC, Chicago), and all your guys pretty much have to peak at around the same time. And I am not sure Bargnani is the ideal player for the long term if we are looking for a championship. I still think we should trade him while the iron is burning hot.

[CT2010]

I don't follow this. They slaved away trying to get through to him and now it looks like they may finally have him to point that he's an important piece to a developing winning culture. So instead of moving forward next year with him and with a potential elite center of the future, some other great core pieces and a 2012 lottery pick we should trade Bargnani and take on someone who isn't developed, who may not develop but is younger, all so that we can align the stars perfectly? I don't agree with this. I think it's risky and I really don't see the point. They have lots of young guys to develop already and have at least two more on the way this summer. The guy is young and doesn't depend very much at all on athleticism to produce. He could continue to grow and I don't think you'll see him regress too much until he's well into his 30's. I mean look at Dirk Nowitzki, who is another skilled big man that doesn't depend much on athleticism, who is seven years older than Bargnani and is still producing on an elite level. If he's finally arrived and establishes that clearly then you roll with him and if one day he doesn't fit in with the movement you then trade him. Building from within isn't consistently being one of the youngest teams in the league, it's about consistently adding pieces via the draft and lifting young prospect from other teams. Colangelo is doing that.

I'm not against trading him, I'm just against trading him for players who are rough around the edges and who may not produce a return on the investment. To suffer through years of growing pains to then just trade him and watch him achieve elsewhere just seems like a bad joke to me if it involves then taking a gamble on developing someone else's prospects.

Well said.

[CT2010]

I get your logic, but Bargnani is inferior compared to Dirk, and Dirk peaked at 27. So if going by this logic next year will be Bargnani's best year. After that he will decline. Dirk is a great player, but him producing the way he is in his 30's in no way can be compared to the player he was in his late 20's. And Dallas was one of the oldest teams in the league last year, and had a lot of veteran talent (JKidd, Chandler, Marion, Terry). Our team won't have that until maybe 2015/2016. So do we hold on to Bargnani until we have a good solid veteran team around him?

I would also argue that Nowitski and Bargnani are both athletic big men. They don't need to bang down low, and use their quickness to their advantage. Once Bargnani's quickness goes, it will be harder for him to get his shot off, and will be harder to move to another team.

As for aligning the stars perfectly - I think that's really the best way to win a title. If you can't force the stars to be aligned (*cough* Miami), then you pretty much have to do it with the draft (ie, OKC, Chicago), and all your guys pretty much have to peak at around the same time. And I am not sure Bargnani is the ideal player for the long term if we are looking for a championship. I still think we should trade him while the iron is burning hot.

So how old was Dirk last year when he won the title by out performing LeBron and Wade?

[planetmars]

Hey Fellas, do you think Demar, Ed, Amir, Jose have all peaked? We should probably be looking to trade them all. I have to admit I have been pleasantly surprised that the comments have mostly been positive surrounding Bargnani with his added effort, especially from guys that have called for his public execution for years. But every once in a while there is somebody who can't quite come to terms with the fact that he is an elite player and leave him alone for a week.

You should be more worried about Demar, Ed Davis and our SF position. They have all looked terrible and although I like and support all the players on the Raptors, I am genuinely worried that Demar does not have what it takes to be the player we all hoped he would be. His deficiencies are so glaring now that the others have stepped up their games. I hope that he finds a way to improve and remain part of our future plans.

Jose has definitely peaked and in no way would be considered a long term piece. Demar, Ed and Amir are still very young. You are looking at ages 22, 22, and 24. Demar and Ed have about 3 years left of growth in them before they peak, Amir probably another 2. Bargnani may peak this year. That's the difference.

I want a championship. I don't see one this year, next year or the year after. If you consider Bargnani elite then isn't it a good time to trade him for something that can peak when the others peak too? Or do we hold on to Bargnani until he's 30 or 31 and then try and trade him or move him?

I'm not trying to say we should dump him for a second rounder and a veteran. I'd want to move him for good long term pieces. Potential elite players that are young and have not quite hit their prime.

And yes, I am enjoying his success.. and I am worried about Demar and Davis. But if I can do something to make my team better for the long term (which is what I'm aiming for), then I'd want to think about moving my best pieces - which in my opinion is Bargnani right now.

[planetmars]

So how old was Dirk last year when he won the title by out performing LeBron and Wade?

But the entire team was old and gelled at the right time. Plus Dallas was considered a write-off for most pundits. They were going to lose to Portland in the first round, but got through. A lot of that had to do with the team's leadership (JKidd, Chandler, and Terry). Dirk was awesome, but he's an awesome player. He'll be in the hall of fame. Bargnani won't be.

[NoPropsneeded]

we need a everything DeRozan thread

[LBF]

I'm not sure what happened to Tim. Perhaps he's waiting for Bargnani to falter before he comments on him again? That might be a long vacation based on what I've seen so far.

budahfan, haven't heard that name in a long time. He certainly would be within his rights to be dropping excessive "told ya so" comments around here if he hadn't gone MIA long, long ago.

As for the quote problem, I think it's a PC issue and not a site issue.

you could always check the date of his last blog post. and yeah its a definite pc issue it also cuts off the bottom of my g and j's so they look like i and q until i post. as for barganani i dont expect him to keep up his improved play as to be frank i dont think it is any different from last year. it seems something rather has inspired him to not be so lazy. just a theory but maybe it's the primo sauce on his spaghetti.

[ab7]

would any of u ever consider maybe find and other elite scorer for team.... before trading bargnani why dont we give him an other elite scorer like maybe ............... derozan for marcus thorton orrr a package to get elis both young players that can bring us in the top for next year with a combination ou JV and the draft so i dont think trading barg is the issue right now demar gave us on 2 good games and 8 bad by the way his third year soooo basically ....

ps: if there is any spelling mistake bare with me i am french keep your comments

[Red and White]

This whole idea of players "peaking" at a certain age and then they have dramatically less value is silly. You are getting too revved up on the idea of a player peaking. Why put so much time and effort into turning him into the player he is just to trade him?

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying if Bargnani peaks this year (or next) we should trade him because he will not be a longterm player for this team (or he will be 29/30 by the time we have enough talent to be successful), and we should get the best we can for him, when we can? But you also say we should get a player with potential to fill the scoring/allstar role in 2 or 3 years? That does not sound like "the best we can get" first off.I respect your opinion, but I feel you are missing something important. Players, even after they peak, still have something to offer, and in many cases (example Dallas, a team built on players past their peak)they can play huge roles, and investing tons of time into a player who had potential, and tapping into that potential, just to trade them for another player with potential not yet tapped, is silly.

This was a very thought provoking thread, but to me, it makes little sense right now.

The future is bright, Colangelo seems to have gotten it, and next year after the draft, the fa signings, and getting JV, this team will have a lot more talent (hopefully) then it does now.

[NoPropsneeded]

DeMar has more potential than marcus thornton. Writing him off after 8 games is stupid and premature

[Miekenstien]

i would like bc to aggressively pursue wilson chandler when he gets back from china. then our high pick becomes a really strong bargaining piece.

bargs is just now realizing his pump fake is going to be respected by bigger defenders who usually play in the post or he can easily shoot over smaller players.

for his development he is only going to become more efficient. as he gains confidence, which he is doing by leaps and bounds, he game will just come easier and easier. with him it isn't about peaking but maximizing. thats why he has been so frustrating to fans because he has always been able to do what he has done this year but hasnt done it consistently.

again all credit for bargs should be given to DC. I feel he is the only coach who is showing Bargs what to do instead of saying "take it to the hole more" "rebound more" "play better" "play harder". I also think that this year might be the most homework any player on our team has ever done in their lives with regards to tape watching and practice.

[Apollo]

I get your logic, but Bargnani is inferior compared to Dirk, and Dirk peaked at 27. So if going by this logic next year will be Bargnani's best year. After that he will decline. Dirk is a great player, but him producing the way he is in his 30's in no way can be compared to the player he was in his late 20's. And Dallas was one of the oldest teams in the league last year, and had a lot of veteran talent (JKidd, Chandler, Marion, Terry). Our team won't have that until maybe 2015/2016. So do we hold on to Bargnani until we have a good solid veteran team around him?

mentioning of Dirk was strictly age to illustrate ability to maintain production/effectiveness in the 30's. What does Andrea's level of play compared to Dirk's have to do with Andrea still being able to continue his current level of production into his 30's? It's not like he gets it done due to his insane hops, incredible speed or lightning first step. He gets it done through good offensive fundamentals and finesse.

Who says Dirk peaked at 27? Back then he was labeled a guy who could pad the stats when it didn't matter and who's game faded in the playoffs when it counted. Some might argue that Dirk peaked back in June of 2011.

Finally, how do you know they won't have a strong veteran presence until 2015-2016 and why does that matter? I feel you're placing far too much emphasis on age and not enough on talent. You don't want too many old guys or longevity might be an issue but you need veteran leadership and you need people who have lots of experience.

I would also argue that Nowitski and Bargnani are both athletic big men. They don't need to bang down low, and use their quickness to their advantage. Once Bargnani's quickness goes, it will be harder for him to get his shot off, and will be harder to move to another team.

The Raptors aren't built around Bargnani and they're not going to be built around him in the future. Once they get better talent he shouldn't need to create his own shots at all. If the Raptors whole goal is to build around a big man who they're going to depend on to create on his own during the clutch time then they've learned nothing this past decade and are utterly hopeless. Let's all stop watching if that's their plan because in almost all cases championship teams have highly talented guards and wings who handle the ball most of the time and generate the offense. Shaq and Duncan weren't expected to drive the offense during their runs. They were important, vital but it was their guard play that was so crucial to them ever hoisting the trophy. Bargnani is moving his game more and more in closer to the rim, playing the percentages. I feel you'll see him move closer and closer as he ages. This is how Dirk's game went as he matured as well by the way. So to sum it up, Bargnani won't need to play the way he does now on offense as the team matures, I don't feel he uses that much athleticism now to play his style to begin with and if he were needed to carry the offensive load when they plan on contending then let's just stop now and go watch some hockey because we're wasting our time completely.

As for aligning the stars perfectly - I think that's really the best way to win a title. If you can't force the stars to be aligned (*cough* Miami), then you pretty much have to do it with the draft (ie, OKC, Chicago), and all your guys pretty much have to peak at around the same time. And I am not sure Bargnani is the ideal player for the long term if we are looking for a championship. I still think we should trade him while the iron is burning hot.

Ripping off other team's talent is a new concept and the new CBA has literature, which has yet to cut in, that will limit this model more and more going forward. The Thunder and Bulls have won nothing yet. The Raptors are building their team no differently than the Bulls or Thunder, they've just not been lucky enough to identify their superstar. Who knows, maybe it happens with Val, maybe it happens in the 2012 draft or maybe it happens down the line but what I do know is that when it happens they're going to need guys who can knock down big shots and they're going to need as much talent as possible. Whether Bargnani is on the level of Nowitzki or Horry or anywhere in between, he will be highly useful if he maintains his new outlook on basketball. One more thing, it's funny that you mention the Bulls as they have a 30 year old PF locked in for four more years and on average will make $5M/yr more than Bargnani currently makes. Not to mention that while Boozer is a different player than Bargnani I don't think he contributes more than Bargnani.