View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #781
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    LOL. Amir can't stay on the court. "HE DOESN FOUL OUT a lot" is just funny. HHAHAHAHAHAHA.
    how many times last season did he foul out ?

    unless you think getting a lot of fouls is the same as fouling out.

  2. #782
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Can and Can`t

    Pops was fun, but I have to repeat something from a poignant moment: “Are you seriously comparing Pops, who has bounced from team to team ... ” .

    johnp made one point about Bargnani and value relative to points & stats. Bosh would’ve cost us Max money – no hometown discount on that one. One option, that with bad luck, could`ve sidetracked the team for years to come.
    .
    [QUOT“ ... what has people excited is that the majority of the points he's scoring are in the paint.”E][/QUOTE]
    The irony is, some will say this European stuff is bogus basketball, and it means nothing. Do good – to be expected. Do lousy, and they’ll shout – “even failed D-League”.
    .
    Bargnani will not be the Raptors best player in 10-11.
    If he’s not, this could bode well for the Raptors. It may mean a player has “erupted”, and been that surprise we really want.
    .
    “I watched a lot of the games last season. He might even turn out to be only their 3rd or 4th”.
    Really. 4th best? That sounds more like a FAQ statement.
    .
    “ .You my friend are in a state of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Bargnani”.
    The state is not in a confliction of ideas. Bargnani will do well.
    .

  3. #783
    Raptors Republic Rookie JalenRose5's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Don't get your panties in a knot...You can't claim "he's too stupid" when you don't have a clue yourself. To suggest that Bargs for Okafor is a trade worth discussing only reveals that you may be half mongoloid. Why do you think Okafor has bounced around the league? He's a complimentary player at best not someone that can be the focal point of any team.
    To suggest that Bargnani is better than Okafor reveals that you are FULLY Mongoloid! Last I checked Okafor can play defense, rebound, and his points averages aren't that shy of Bargnani's. For you to suggest Bargnani be the focal point of the raptors reveals 1. You hate the raptors and never want them to succeed. 2. You must be related to Bryan Colangelo.

    Yes Okafor is a complimentary player, but so is Bargnani!!

  4. #784
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    Why should we appreciate Bargs? What has he done for this franchise?

  5. #785
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    Quote 007nites wrote: View Post
    Why should we appreciate Bargs? What has he done for this franchise?
    exactly what bosh has done for the franchise. and people are STILL lining up to cup bosh's marbles with their lips.

    appreciate the fact that bargs wants to play in toronto. rare thing these days, it seems.

  6. #786
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    I watched a lot of the games last season.

    Bargnani will not be the Raptors best player in 10-11. He might even turn out to be only their 3rd or 4th best.

    Using summer league Euro play to say that Bargnani is going to become the next Dirk is just out of touch with reality.

    Why do you think that almost everyone thinks the Raptors are going to be so bad?

    The reason is because all these people believe that Bargnani is the Raptors best player.

    If they realized that he will be maybe only their 3rd or 4th best then they would be ranking the Raptors higher like I am.

    You my friend are in a state of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Bargnani.

    Consistency and perseverance is key to the success of any player. A player that consistently puts out on both ends of the floor is important. Perseverance means that if a player is not scoring, he will have to compensate it in other areas of the game - rebounds, deflections, steals, blocks and taking charges. Bargnani neither has both. Often times when his buckets are not going down, he is often pulled out of games in favour of other players. This trend will continue and I will argue that the continued preference of the Italian team to play zone defence (which is what the Euro game defence is all about) just does more harm to his defensive mindset. He will require that much more COACHING when he comes back to training camp. Has everyone ruled out the possibility that Bargs simply does not have a good BBALL IQ? He lacks fundamentals and may end up becoming one of those players that "just don't get it". I'm sure he's watching film, taking notes, but come on!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  7. #787
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Well if Bargs has improved so much what other big would he become comparable to that plays the game similarly. 7' big man who scores with mostly with jump shots and doesn't play much defense.? Or maybe you are saying that the improved Bargnani will only be as good as Okur?

    I never said Bargs would be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. That statement by you shows why you grossly overstate Bargnani's value to the Raptors winning. You are saying well if he is only going to be the 3rd or 4th best it means he must therefore be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Therefore you are saying in effect, that offense is the only way to measure a players value to a team. That is why you over value Bargnani's value to the Raptors.

    In 09-10 when you look at all forwards and centers who were 6'9" or more and played 1,000 minutes or more there were 94 total players. Bargnani was ranked only 43rd in TS% and 37th in eFG%. Those numbers show that he is not at all very efficient as a scorer.

    In fact among big men Bargnani is only slightly better than average as an efficient scorer..

    It is not the total points you score. It is how many and how efficiently that counts.

    When it comes to rebounding we have already seen that Bargnani is one of the worst rebounders ever for a 7 footer. As I recall only J. Bender (sic) is worse. Even if you lower it 6'10" the number is also pretty bad.

    Of all players in the history of the NBA who were/are 6'10" or taller and played at least 5,000 career minutes Bargnani is the 11th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes. That is just awful. Interestingly enough Turk is 6th worst all-time in rebounds per 36 minutes among players 6'10" or more.

    Now lets look at his defensive rating among the same group of players that we used to look his rebounding. Bargnani has the 6th worst all time defensive rating among this group.

    So clearly I am saying that Bargnani will be only the 3rd or 4th best Raptors player at best based upon his scoring efficiency, rebounding and defense.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...order_by_asc=Y
    Bargnani's shooting percentae is pretty much the same as RuPaul's and Amir's when you take total points scored devided by shots taken ( minus free throws), proving that Barg's not only shoots as efficiently as the other two, but has a broader portfolio of shots creating space for other players, and scoring efficiently. All three are over 50%, even though RuPaul scores half his points under the hoop, and a great many at a free throw line he does not deserve to be at other than because he plays in the worst referreed sport in existence ,and Amir scores 90% of his points on other peope's garbage.
    To say that Barg's is the 4th best player show's how moronic your whole basketball IQ really is. To say Jack is better than Bargnani is pure idiocy. Name me a GM in the league who would take Jack over Bargnani. Jack is a hustle player who I like on this team but he has limited skills and his defense is one of the reasons you all blame Bargs for.
    DD has done nothing yet but show flashes of dazzle on offence. His defence is non existent, and Amir is someone I think highly of and am glad to see him getting more opportunity with the departure of RuPaul, but to praise and worhip a guy and make his per 48 stats up etc, for a guy who has been thrown around like trash and never played more than 17 minutes per season is utterly ridiculous.
    You wonder why you and others get the Bargnani supporters all riled up, when you are constantly posting idiot stuff like this.

  8. #788
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    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    I agree to a certain extent, as you can see when the certain US players expect bail out calls but get none in the pre tourney FIBA games they seem confused by the lack of a bail out foul call. That's why I really don't like the NBA- because it's a game situation manipulation by alot of NBA Ref's ie superstar calls. Also, the weight difference (NBA basketballs are slightly heavier) of the FIBA basketballs is befuddling- one ball, one game.
    NBA has become more of a soap opera then a sport. Don't get me wrong, I love bball. But its really hard to watch the Raptors play based on their "lack of merits." It seems as though they literally are not able to beat teams based on the fact that refs completely screw them over. I'm not saying this as a biased fan, because I can remember this going back to when Miami played Dallas in the finals. Its a conspiracy theory of mine, but it seems as though the NBA has a job to create superstars. Wade averaged an astonishing 16 FREE THROWS PER GAME! Stackhouse, one of the Mavericks go to guys was suspended game five for a flagrant on Shaq!? Heat end up winning the title. Fast forward to 2010, and the Heat now have one of the best cores of all time... Its really hard to watch the NBA. http://www.topix.com/forum/nba/T3F0SUUJSO9ES7PEJ

  9. #789
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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    NBA has become more of a soap opera then a sport. Don't get me wrong, I love bball. But its really hard to watch the Raptors play based on their "lack of merits." It seems as though they literally are not able to beat teams based on the fact that refs completely screw them over. I'm not saying this as a biased fan, because I can remember this going back to when Miami played Dallas in the finals. Its a conspiracy theory of mine, but it seems as though the NBA has a job to create superstars. Wade averaged an astonishing 16 FREE THROWS PER GAME! Stackhouse, one of the Mavericks go to guys was suspended game five for a flagrant on Shaq!? Heat end up winning the title. Fast forward to 2010, and the Heat now have one of the best cores of all time... Its really hard to watch the NBA. http://www.topix.com/forum/nba/T3F0SUUJSO9ES7PEJ
    NBA reffing is a joke and everything you say is true. The game itself is great but the way th refs continually reward so called stars and star teams is utter bs.
    Hears a classic example: How about LeBron ( better known now as LeDouche) being called one of the best defenders in the game yet averaging only 1.6 fouls per gamelast year playing 40 minutes per night? That pretty much sums up the reffing in this league.

  10. #790
    Raptors Republic Rookie RecklessIndifference's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    1. Jack is better than Bargnani.

    2. Johnson had a significantly higher WS/48 and more total Win Shares than Bargnani even though he only played about half the number of minutes. What that means is that even though Johnson played only half as many minutes as Bargnani he contributed more to the Raptors winning than Bargnani.

    So that puts Bargnani 3rd right there.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws


    By the end of 10-11 DeRozan could be better than Bargnani which would probably put Bargnani 4th best.
    Sorry Buddha, I appreciate your stats and analysis, but you are blinded by your hate for Bargnani here. I know you hate that alot of fans like these guys, but you are going overboard just like them.

    1. Jack is NOT our best player. He might not even be our best PG. His suspect defense is overshadowed by Calderon's, but Calderon is a distributor and has one of the best assist-to-turnover rates in the NBA.

    2. In your attacks on Bargnani's 'over-ratedness' you have overwhelmingly over-rated Amir. Amr is a great role player and hustle guy. Exactly what our team needs. BUT if he starts all of his PER, per 36 and per 48's will all go down. He is an efficient player, but all of these stats are derivative of his 'garbage' minutes and play against other bench players. His competition is changing as is the # of minutes he is going to get. He will either have to change his play style to stay in the game, or foul out early.

    Derozen MIGHT be our best player this year, but for all the smack about Andrea's and Calderon's defense, nobody talks about Derozen's. He is not great or even good (right now) on D.

    We will rely on Bargnani and Derozen for offense. So instead of trying to single out certain players let's just hope they each play their role and win us some damn ball games.

  11. #791
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    Quote Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    Bargnani's shooting percentae is pretty much the same as RuPaul's and Amir's when you take total points scored devided by shots taken ( minus free throws), proving that Barg's not only shoots as efficiently as the other two, but has a broader portfolio of shots creating space for other players, and scoring efficiently. All three are over 50%, even though RuPaul scores half his points under the hoop, and a great many at a free throw line he does not deserve to be at other than because he plays in the worst referreed sport in existence ,and Amir scores 90% of his points on other peope's garbage.
    This was just awful. Bargnani gets assisted on his shots more than anyone else on the team. Basically, he can't create his own shot. Bargnani's TS% is very average, well below Chris Bosh's who takes far more possessions than Bargnani.

  12. #792
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    I would argue that Bargnani got assisted with his shot more often because plays were never really ever called for him. He rarely ever got the ball at the elbow as he should this year with RuPaul gone. He almost always got the ball as the second or third otion, and Amir got most of his points garbage style so there are no assists.

  13. #793
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    Default Bargnani Was Like The Usual Dominant Center In His Youth - Missed ALOT Of Free Throws

    http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8j...593-B-9-5.html

    LOL. I was :O 2/24 is just disastrous. And I'm shocked at the amount of time he got to the line, I know he was playing against some crappy 16 year olds but still. Shows he can get to the line... Let's just hope he makes them...

  14. #794
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    With all due respect, Bargnani is a game breaker and Jarrett Jack simply isn't. JJ however is better at speaking English and provides good leadership qualities. Claims of Jack being the best player on the raptors, however, doesn't really hold suit. I believe Panini said it before that the impact Bargnani has is much greater than any one other individual on the team. Plus, he's improved statistically and physically every year since he's come into the league. It took Chris Bosh almost 6 years to fill up his frame; after getting called out by Shaq.

    I'm hoping that this year Bargnani steps it up, he does what he's told to do. This year they will be counting on him to be the go-to-guy, being a former #1 overall pick by the way. I agree stats can tell you a lot about a player, but they can also put things out of a global perspective.

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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    how many times last season did he foul out ?

    unless you think getting a lot of fouls is the same as fouling out.
    I guess he got subbed off before he could foul out :P

  16. #796
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    Quote jami_slam wrote: View Post
    With all due respect, Bargnani is a game breaker and Jarrett Jack simply isn't. JJ however is better at speaking English and provides good leadership qualities. Claims of Jack being the best player on the raptors, however, doesn't really hold suit. I believe Panini said it before that the impact Bargnani has is much greater than any one other individual on the team. Plus, he's improved statistically and physically every year since he's come into the league. It took Chris Bosh almost 6 years to fill up his frame; after getting called out by Shaq.

    I'm hoping that this year Bargnani steps it up, he does what he's told to do. This year they will be counting on him to be the go-to-guy, being a former #1 overall pick by the way. I agree stats can tell you a lot about a player, but they can also put things out of a global perspective.

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  17. #797
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    which is why hes soo frustrating....30 points and only 2/24 at the line? i dont know whether to congratulate him or smack him in the face with a pizza pan i could make better then 2/24 with a hangover.
    which is a great representation of what he is today, INCONSISTENT lol.
    Last edited by blaze89; Fri Aug 27th, 2010 at 04:02 PM.

  18. #798
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Pops was fun, but I have to repeat something from a poignant moment: “Are you seriously comparing Pops, who has bounced from team to team ... ” .

    johnp made one point about Bargnani and value relative to points & stats. Bosh would’ve cost us Max money – no hometown discount on that one. One option, that with bad luck, could`ve sidetracked the team for years to come.
    .
    [QUOT“ ... what has people excited is that the majority of the points he's scoring are in the paint.”E]
    The irony is, some will say this European stuff is bogus basketball, and it means nothing. Do good – to be expected. Do lousy, and they’ll shout – “even failed D-League”.
    .
    Bargnani will not be the Raptors best player in 10-11.
    If he’s not, this could bode well for the Raptors. It may mean a player has “erupted”, and been that surprise we really want.
    .
    “I watched a lot of the games last season. He might even turn out to be only their 3rd or 4th”.
    Really. 4th best? That sounds more like a FAQ statement.
    .
    “ .You my friend are in a state of cognitive dissonance when it comes to Bargnani”.
    The state is not in a confliction of ideas. Bargnani will do well.
    .[/QUOTE]



    +1

  19. #799
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    Quote JalenRose5 wrote: View Post
    To suggest that Bargnani is better than Okafor reveals that you are FULLY Mongoloid! Last I checked Okafor can play defense, rebound, and his points averages aren't that shy of Bargnani's. For you to suggest Bargnani be the focal point of the raptors reveals 1. You hate the raptors and never want them to succeed. 2. You must be related to Bryan Colangelo.

    Yes Okafor is a complimentary player, but so is Bargnani!!

    2009-2010

    Okafor 29 years old 10 pts, 9 rebounds, 1.7 blocks.

    Bargnani 25 years old 17 pts, 6 rebounds, 1.5 blocks.

    7 more points a game isn't just a few points, its almost double Okafor. Also don't discredit how much he opens up the floor for other players, something Okafor doesn't do.

  20. #800
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    Something doesn't make sense about these numbers. All players on both teams had awful - i'm talking epic awful - F/T numbers.

    Croatia shot 23/67, for a total of 34.3%
    Italy shot 15/77, or 19.5%.

    What...were they shooting from half-court or something? That's insane, and it can't be correct.

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