What I mean is taking a few games out of lowrys career doesn't mean anything
We are pissed because bargnani has regressed and were clearly better without him
What I mean is taking a few games out of lowrys career doesn't mean anything
We are pissed because bargnani has regressed and were clearly better without him
BallaBalla wrote:
The way you missed pooka's point is actually pretty funny.
Your selective sample size for Lowry as a starter ignores one constant: Bargnani.
Lowry starting with no Bargnani puts the Raptors at 7-7 with 11 of those 14 games vs. teams plus .500 and playoff bound.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
LOL! I don't understand why people still defend Bargnani. What's the point, and when will it stop? Like, what more evidence do you need?!
your pal,
ebrian
LOL, ebrian also totally misses the point, and I'm not sure if Matt does also, or just doing the RR 2-Step "my anecdotal information is more relevant than your anecdotal information".
*sigh* manipulation of useless "facts" to unnecessarily support the daily whining and bitching agenda (basketball is fun isn't it). It's worthy of the finest political spin doctoring! Yet with providing a clear example of how silly it is, some see my response as defense of Bargs (doh, see any forests lately?), while Matt either still doesn't get it or sticks to his guns like a mule on steroids wearing blinders, or both.
Last edited by p00ka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 09:18 AM.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
DOH, reading comprehension problem? I'm not defending him. I'm defending common sense against an assault by senseless manipulation of data to support a tired old agenda. As I said in an earlier post, there's enough valid stuff to dump on Bargs about (does that sound like defending him, doh?), that this simplistic and senseless manipulation of information isn't necessary. The point isn't when will defense of Bargs stop (that's not what's happening here), but when will an obsession with digging up more dirt (even when it's useless bullshit) stop.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
Maybe you are missing the overall point: Bargnani playing makes the Raptors a worse team this season. My "anecdotal information" is backed up by wins and losses as well as numerous advanced stats.
If you could find me any shred of evidence to the contrary, I'd appreciate it. But thus far you have done the p00ka 2-step and turned it in to unrelated comparisons to Gay and Lowry.
Show me something that does not support the overall argument that "Bargnani makes the Raptors a worse team this season."
Looking forward to what you find.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
is it?? haha I wasn't really paying attention i guess
whatever bargnani sucks
and regardless of what p00ka is saying....i agree with Matt
HAHA i just read the actual discussion....not one I should have commented on right at the end.
Anyway, having read it I just want to say that I think everyone is missing a point here.
p00ka is saying that these facts are being taken out of context to support whatever argument a person has. While this is absolutely valid, the overall point is that these stats support ALL the points discussed.
in other words, your breakdown of lowry's record with the team above does not prove nothing, but the opposite. It proves that the Raptors have a worse record with Lowry starting than when he is on the bench. That's a fact. They were more successful when he was injured and played with jose as the starter. That's also a fact
Now, the reasons why could be a variety of factors including the distribution of minutes to other players like lucas, or the strength of schedule, attitude problems etc. that have nothing to do with lowry's ability as a player.
Same with Gay, if the raptors or 0-3 or whatever when he has 4+ steals, it does not mean nothing, but is probably reflective of the way we played defense that game (more gambling, etc.) and not his ability as a player.
Some of these stats mean more than others, so more weighting should be given to some. For example, Lowry as a starter is more important than Gay getting 4+ steals in a game, because Lowry starting happens every game.
At the end of the day, however, it is difficult to argue with the fact that EVERY measurement mechanism, EVERY STAT, etc. all point to the same thing: our team has been mostly worse with Bargnani on the floor.
Strength of Schedule, teammates in and out, etc. all factor in, there is no question, and it would be stupid to say otherwise.
But there is NO COMBINATION of players, NO strength of schedule, NO amount of minutes, and NO amount of Primo Pasta that have made Bargnani effective this year. This is ultimately what Matt is saying.
In Sum: if a person does not want to use common sense to plainly see that Bargnani's shot selection, help defense, rebounding passing, and even shooting has been terrible this year and ergo made our team worse....
There is no stat, no metrics, no ANYTHING that you can twist and turn to say that we are in anyway a better team with him on the floor.
So, you can use the argument that "STAT X" is not a good way to measure how he makes us worse, which is what p00ka did. But like Matt said, there is a PLETHORA of stats which prove this point. Pick whichever one and be at peace with it.
Or just turn on the TV and watch the guy play for 5 minutes....either way
I'd have expected it from some on here whose brains haven't developed enough yet, but you still don't get it? I thought you'd be someone capable of understanding a simple concept and deal with a rather simple intellectual challenge. Or is this just being the "mule on steroids" I spoke of, fueled by your view of the poster that questioned your information spin doctoring? Obsession and stubbornness can turn smart people into stuck on stupid, so maybe that's it.
This isn't about arguing the merits of AB and what he represents to the Raps, good or bad. If you want to rant every other day about your opinion of Bargs, you know you'll have plenty of followers, so have at it with whatever "advanced stats" you can muster, if that does something for you. I wish you lots of fun doing so, but please don't confuse the "stats" you presented in this thread, which is what I responded to. as anything other than advanced (for the slow witted anyway) manipulation of anecdotal information to support your agenda. I gave you a perfect example of how the exact same type of information can be used to paint a picture of someone else, that is nowhere near what you want to hear, and you choose to take that as a comparison of players, rather than an example of how the data you did use in this thread is nothing but spin doctoring of manipulated data to feed the fire.
"Show me something that does not support the overall argument that "Bargnani makes the Raptors a worse team this season."
Looking forward to what you find."
I don't know if this is simply not getting the point, or a common technique I've noticed at RR: re-direct the conversation into something you feel you can win. I don't need to go looking to find the information you look forward to, because I have zero interest following you down the change of path. You have lots of people here who will gladly hold your hand and dance down that path with you, as they do every day. Though I would suggest using the type of numbers that you'd accept being applied to others too. I think it's silliness applying those type of numbers to anybody, but if you feel they're valid for one, then they're applicable to others, which you clearly don't accept,,,,,,, because it doesn't fit the script.
Last edited by p00ka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:43 AM.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
p00ka, I think the issue is that most here (myself included) don't understand why you would spend this much time trying to show that anecdotal stats aren't worth much, without any care for what these stats are trying to show.
In other words, if you believe that Bargnani is indeed a net-negative player, why do you care how that message is conveyed, if you concur with the overall message? It comes across as arguing for the sake of argument.
Or, if you believe that Bargnani indeed has value as a basketball player, why hide around the idea that you're simply pointing out statistical flaws?
Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:47 AM.
"I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder
I get that. But why bother? Why do you care about how people are making their arguments about a player that is clearly not very good, overpaid and thus hogtying a franchise that is already overspending on several other players? This player needs to be traded.
That is all.
your pal,
ebrian
What's going on here.. I type out a message, saved it and then I look up and see you've posted the exact same thing. This has happened several times over the past week..
your pal,
ebrian
My guess is it's because pooka thinks math and facts actually matter, even when what you are presenting is just an "opinion". You can argue that Bargnani sucks for a ton of reasons, but when you bring "facts" and stats into your argument, they really should actually, you know, mean something. And the ones being presented don't actually mean anything because you can't prove causality or correlation between Bargnani's individual stats and those of the team as a whole. Mathematically speaking, I mean.
If you're just trying to add to a narrative, it's fine, but there's no actual value to using those stats the way people are using them here. They are completely meaningless as related to the argument at hand.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
My original statement implied the more Bargnani plays and the better he does individually, the more losses for Toronto. The Raptors record supports the claim as well as numerous other statistics.
Basically your argument would be akin to me telling you I am the Queen of England and you have to believe me because I said it is so. I am making statements/opinions based on what statistics and my experience watching Raptors games is telling me.
If you want to talk about Rudy's steals in the same manner, go ahead. However Gay's arrival has coincided with a stretch of .500 ball with the majority of games versus playoff/+ .500 teams.
If you want to talk Lowry's impact in the same manner, go ahead. However Lowry has a PER of 19.5 and an excellent WS.
You see, you provided numbers but I provided evidence to the contrary. Take the comments and evidence as you please and will. But I have provided evidence of why your statement is hardly fool proof. I would love to see any shred of evidence or insight that supports the idea Bargnani DOES NOT make the Raptors worse this year.
My conversation continues to be on the topic of Bargnani makes the Raptors worse this year. I don't have a sweet clue what you are talking about now. If you want to contribute to the topic at hand, please do. If you want to continue calling me dim witted or pushing an agenda because you don't like the evidence I bring forth to support a claim, go ahead.
But I REALLY wish you could provide me something other than b.s. to show the Raptors are not a worse team with Bargnani this season.
"Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."Tim Leiweke
Here's the fact that bothers me the most about Bargnani. Excluding his rookie year, he has started 85% of games he's played in.
Year 2 67.9%
Year 3 75.6%
Years 4,5,6 100%
Year 7 70.6%
Despite Bargnani's career never taking off, declining FG%, 3pt% and points in the past 3 years, he continues to be a key player on this team that hasn't been to the playoffs since Bargnani's sophomore year.
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
"The idea isn't to block every shot, the idea is to make your opponent think you might" - Bill Russell
Well, that hasn't been "the issue", not even "an issue" being discussed up to now, but isn't that a question that could apply to anyone who puts in time here? (why spend so much time doing what you do? as in the "you" being anybody). We all have our different focuses here, often heavily influenced by what else we encounter here, and mostly to fill a void.
My original intent in coming here was to find a place to engage in knowledgeable and objective (yes that includes being reasonably critical) discussion about the team I love to follow. That's been difficult to find, imo, and I've somewhat found myself in a bit of a rut trying to combat what I feel is over the top negativism that feeds off, and grows, from shit like this. I guess I've become almost as stubborn about presenting an alternative view here, and maybe helping to change some mindsets, as I am about my passion for a team that loses so much.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
Exactly what my point has been, and I thought I made it quite clear. If your summary helps clear it up, I thank you.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
Matt, if you wish to carry on using "facts" that are meaningless to the argument you wish to make, what can I say, but have a nice day, and have fun, eh.
Know basketball, know fun. No basketball, no fun.
I get what you're saying. It just seems odd that while some are using stats to discuss/argue (in this case) Bargnani, you're using stats to discuss/argue statistical integrity. It seems rather off-topic.
Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Mar 7th, 2013 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Type-o
"I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder
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