Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[RaptorRoo]

Monta Ellis was 6th in the entire NBA in scoring last season. I don't see anyone touting him as an MVP candidate. Being good at scoring is great. Being a below average rebounder and defender isn't. Especially when you're a big man.

And when people talk about Bargnani being a top 10 center, when it's pretty obvious he is not, it's a normal reaction for people to comment. If people started talking about how Jose Calderon is a top 10 PG, I'm sure it will get a lot of reaction. Offensively, Calderon very well might be a top 10 point guard, but does that make him one of the ten best in the entire league?

No one on here is stating that Bargnani is an mvp??? The discussion is whether or not he is a top ten CENTER not top ten player in the league. Bargs is a lot closer to being a top ten center (5th in scoring last season) than Jose is to being a top ten PG (63rd in scoring last season) so your argument does not make sense. Reaction is fine but bashing a player because of others opinions is ridiculous.

[JoePanini]

No one on here is stating that Bargnani is an mvp??? The discussion is whether or not he is a top ten CENTER not top ten player in the league. Bargs is a lot closer to being a top ten center (5th in scoring last season) than Jose is to being a top ten PG (63rd in scoring last season) so your argument does not make sense. Reaction is fine but bashing a player because of others opinions is ridiculous.

Re-read what Tim wrote, now try and actually understand what he is trying to say.

[RaptorRoo]

Gallo is very talented, no doubt.

Gallinari not Gallo...

[RaptorRoo]

Fantasy rankings are completely based on numbers. We all know Bargnani is going to have good numbers but we also know he is a horrible center.

Horrible center??? He was 5th in scoring as center last season. We all know he needs to get his rebounding and team D up but he is by no means a "horrible" center.

[JoePanini]

Gallinari not Gallo...

Gallo is his nickname. It means rooster in Italian.

[Buddahfan]

Buddahfan you're a good knowledgeable dude, and your enthusiasm is somewhat contagious. I think I may have moved up from Liking Amir to loving Amir!!
I seriously think Amir and Bargs can develop into a better more effective duo than Bosh and Bargnani were.

Thanks for the compliment

[Buddahfan]

Alas, Tim, you know the game well. But sadly, exactly what you stated is believed by the casual basketball fan, i.e. blocks = defense.

The best team/help defender the Raps ever had was Charles Oakley, even in the latter stages of his career, and he couldn't block my grandmother. Vince Carter had more blocks than him (almost 2-to-1), so I guess that makes VC a better defender than Oak.

+1

[sixtyeight]

I usually play in a couple of 12 categories/teams roto leagues every year and Andrea looks legit at 40-50 there imo, but only with the right team building. People get easily seduced by a 3 point shooter C who will probably score many points, but his lack of rebounds is a big no-go for me, I prefer to get my rebounds (among other things) early in the draft. Points and 3s are relatively easy to find even later, I usually let the fanboys take Bargs early His blocks/3s/points are a tempting combo but I prefer a safer Marc Gasol for example. Nene+Horford worked pretty well, don't see why I should change my habits
I like Gallo a lot, much more than Bargs, and I expect much from him, hope NY won't let him rot as a 3 point specialist, he's more versatile than most people think...and has an understanding of the game that Andrea can only dream of. If I have to make a risky pick in a fantasy league I'd take Gallo, not Andrea, for the simple reason that with Andrea you can expect some not so shocking improvements in a few categories, basically improvements in categories he's already good at, while Gallo could really become a complete player and start contributing in almost every category.

[RaptorRoo]

Re-read what Tim wrote, now try and actually understand what he is trying to say.

I know what he was trying to say and it isn't a fair statement. People are reacting and overreacting to the notion of Bargs as a top ten center but my point again is that this notion is not as far fetched as Jose being considered a top ten pg.

[RaptorRoo]

Gallo is his nickname. It means rooster in Italian.

I know I'm Italian but I didnt think buddah knew that...

[CB4]

Horrible center??? He was 5th in scoring as center last season. We all know he needs to get his rebounding and team D up but he is by no means a "horrible" center.

I disagree. I don't think it is really worth playing him even if he scores because his defense is so bad other than the fact we have no other viable options. If he was a shooting guard, he would be very valuable, but not at the center position. He isn't good at rebounding, boxing out, positioning, is horrendous at help defense, nor is his one on one defense that good. Worst of all, he just watches players drive the lane or watch other players dunk it while getting out of the way. He invites people to the paint because they know they can attack him. That hurts us overall because our perimeter defense suffers when we can't keep players out of the paint. I'm not saying Bargnani isn't talented or a bad basketball player but he plays the center position very poorly.

Lastly, I don't think you can ever judge a player simply by the amount he scores.

[Tim W.]

I know what he was trying to say and it isn't a fair statement. People are reacting and overreacting to the notion of Bargs as a top ten center but my point again is that this notion is not as far fetched as Jose being considered a top ten pg.

Apparently you don't understand what I was saying. I never said anyone was saying that Bargnani is an MVP candidate, as you alluded to in your earlier post. My point was that just because someone scores a lot of points, doesn't make them one of the better players. My example of Monta Ellis was brought up because he was among the best in the league in scoring, but he's certainly not considered one of the elite players in the league. The reason is because he just scores, and that's because he takes a lot of shots. Bargnani might end up being the top scoring center in the league, but that doesn't make him better than those centers who rebound and play defense at a high level. No one outside of Raptor and Bargnani fans would ever rank him among the top ten centers in the league. He's simply too poor at rebounding and defense, which are very important for a big man. You can even get away with two out of three (scoring, rebounding, defense), but not one.

Simply put, there is no way Bargnani is better than Howard, Yao, Bogut, Lopez, Noah, Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum or Gasol, or a healthy Oden. Only Noah, Nene and Oden aren't threats on both ends of the court, but they more than make up for that with game changing defense. That's 11 players. And that doesn't include Perkins, Okur, Dalembert, Okafor or Camby, all who could be easily argued to be better than Bargnani. Only a few of them match his offensive skills, but the fact of the matter is, they are vastly superior on the boards and on defense.

Yes, offense is important, but not in lieu of defense and rebounding. Not when you're 7 feet.

Earlier, I brought up a 6 foot player who was a great shooter, but couldn't handle the ball or pass. When you're 6 feet, you're kind of expected to do those things. If you can't, you're simply not ever going to be anything but a role player.

I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions. If I started touting Calderon as a top ten PG, lots of people would take issue. It wouldn't mean that Calderon was getting unfairly picked on. It would mean that I'm overrating Calderon. Yes, Bargnani MAY be closer to being a top ten center than Calderon is a top ten PG, but that doesn't matter. The point I was making is that when someone or a group of people constantly overrate a player, people are going to react.

You seem to often focus too much on the actual examples instead of the meaning behind the examples. They're simply meant as illustrations, not as literal comparisons.

[JoePanini]

Apparently you don't understand what I was saying. I never said anyone was saying that Bargnani is an MVP candidate, as you alluded to in your earlier post. My point was that just because someone scores a lot of points, doesn't make them one of the better players. My example of Monta Ellis was brought up because he was among the best in the league in scoring, but he's certainly not considered one of the elite players in the league. The reason is because he just scores, and that's because he takes a lot of shots. Bargnani might end up being the top scoring center in the league, but that doesn't make him better than those centers who rebound and play defense at a high level. No one outside of Raptor and Bargnani fans would ever rank him among the top ten centers in the league. He's simply too poor at rebounding and defense, which are very important for a big man. You can even get away with two out of three (scoring, rebounding, defense), but not one.

Simply put, there is no way Bargnani is better than Howard, Yao, Bogut, Lopez, Noah, Horford, Nene, Kaman, Bynum or Gasol, or a healthy Oden. Only Noah, Nene and Oden aren't threats on both ends of the court, but they more than make up for that with game changing defense. That's 11 players. And that doesn't include Perkins, Okur, Dalembert, Okafor or Camby, all who could be easily argued to be better than Bargnani. Only a few of them match his offensive skills, but the fact of the matter is, they are vastly superior on the boards and on defense.

Yes, offense is important, but not in lieu of defense and rebounding. Not when you're 7 feet.

Earlier, I brought up a 6 foot player who was a great shooter, but couldn't handle the ball or pass. When you're 6 feet, you're kind of expected to do those things. If you can't, you're simply not ever going to be anything but a role player.

I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions. If I started touting Calderon as a top ten PG, lots of people would take issue. It wouldn't mean that Calderon was getting unfairly picked on. It would mean that I'm overrating Calderon. Yes, Bargnani MAY be closer to being a top ten center than Calderon is a top ten PG, but that doesn't matter. The point I was making is that when someone or a group of people constantly overrate a player, people are going to react.

You seem to often focus too much on the actual examples instead of the meaning behind the examples. They're simply meant as illustrations, not as literal comparisons.

LOL. RaptorRoo could have just read the two little paragraphs you wrote, but now he stuck with this one. If he doesn't get what you wrote previously, what makes you think he'll get this? LOL

[Buddahfan]

I brought Calderon being a top 10 PG up because some felt that Bargnani was being unfairly picked on. He's being criticized as much as he is because his fans seem to overrate him, and don't tend to even back up their opinions.

Its more fun and faster to use the "throw enough spaghetti at the wall and some of it will stick" approach. That way you don't have to take the time and make the effort to dig up those old numbers or find a link or two to support what you write.

[Beaverboi]

Bargs should go all bad-ass this year, sort of a WWE personna. Maybe in the first game or two forearm someone across the face, tell off the refs and get kicked out. Emulate his style after Razor Ramone (I know, not Italian, but close). Make people think twice about coming in the paint. Not for getting their shot blocked, but for getting their nose broken.

[BC Boy]

I am not sure how much people weigh "Win Shares" into thier evaluation of talent, but last year the top 5 Centers according to this stat were:
Howard
Horford
Gasol (Marc)
Lopez
Bynum

Bargnani (who was slated as a PF on Basketball Reference) had a win share of 4.2 last year (tying him with Nenad Kristic) and ranking him as the 13th best center. Bosh had a 9.6 and interestingly enough (which I am sure Buddah has pointed out) Johnson had a 4.6.

Center's "Win Share" link - remember Bargs is not on this list because they listed him as a PF.

Bargnani's Offensive Win Share is 3.3 (placing him 7th among Centers)
Bargnani's Defensive Win Share is 0.9 (placing him tied for 32nd with David Anderson and Andris Biedrins)

[Tim W.]

LOL. RaptorRoo could have just read the two little paragraphs you wrote, but now he stuck with this one. If he doesn't get what you wrote previously, what makes you think he'll get this? LOL

You're probably right. Sometimes I just start typing and don't realize how much I've typed until I press the post button.

[JoePanini]

You're probably right. Sometimes I just start typing and don't realize how much I've typed until I press the post button.

That happens to me too, sometimes. Especially when I write stuff about Bargs. LOL.

[Les]

Perkins is only 24, so adding Barg's does not help them get younger. For a team that prides itself on great defence, why would they EVER trade for a center that is a horrible help defender? Have you watched the Celtics play D? They are like a green glob that is constantly rotating and helping each other. How do you suggest they integrate a poor help defender like AB???

[Macc]

yea but what im saying is real fans DO RECOGNIZE defense...

and perkins is only a year older than bargs, so he will continue to get better.

i cant remember the last time a game was won due to a big hitting a 3.... but i remember over a hundred times where the game was won because a big defended the paint or grabbed a rebound and didnt allow any second chance points.

You missed my point. Let me put it this way, if Perkins was on the Raptors roster last year, would you consider him a top 10 center? I think not. Would we as fans value him more than Bargnani? Maybe, and that's your point which I understand. But the topic is not about what makes a center more valuble, offence or defence. Top 10 centers are on winning teams in which most or all of the players on the team play above average defence. If Bargnani was on Boston and put up the SAME numbers his rank on the list of centers would skyrocket. If Perkins were to be on the Raptors and put up the same numbers, he wouldn't smell the top 20.

This is why I find it tough to rank players, especially centers. What I'm saying is, it depends on the team. Dwight Howard (imo) has a terrible post game (it is getting better) but he is surrounded by pure offensive ability (Lewis, Carter, etc.) and scoring is not Orlando's problem, so no one cares. So he is probably atop the list because of his great defence. But the Raptors problem is defence, and Bargnani doesn't provide that well, so he falls drastically.

I don't feel it's fair to bash him (this much) when he plays on a team where our best defender is probably a rookie (Davis).