View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #1621
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Good analogy. But some guys only want a trophy wife - lol like Tiger.

    I would agree and disagree with the history. Agreed on the fact there is alot of it. Disagree that you can't win without a dominant big man. To be clear on a dominant big man, I'm talking about a 20ppg/10reb/1.5-2bpg or more. See Bulls, Pistons.

    The difference between Bosh and Bargnani is Bosh was paid $16-$17M last year vs. Bargnani average salary of $10M. That difference of $6-7M can help pay for the things to put around Bargnani to be successful.

    Also, I dont' mean to be singling out Bargnani here. He is only one piece of the puzzle, albeit a big piece. Because they have Bargnani, they need other pieces to compliment him - strong perimeter defenders and solid rebounders.

    The same analogy could be used of DeRozan. He is a slasher with a decent mid-range jumper. For the team to be successful with him, he is going to need solid shooters to space the floor and keep the D honest (Jack/Calderon, Kleiza, Bargnani).

    Evans is very one dimensional - hustle and rebound. You need guys to pick up the slack on his scoring woes.

    I could go on but hopefully you get what I mean.
    I never said you can't win without a dominant big man. But you can't win without a big man who is a good rebounder and defender. People think I'm picking on Bargnani, but I'd be picking on any big man who was a liability on the boards and/or the defensive end. It's one reason I HATED the idea of David Lee or Amare coming to the Raptors. Both are below average defenders and in the last playoffs, the Suns discovered how difficult it can be with a big man who can't defend when Amare basically let the Lakers big men do anything they wanted.

    As for the salaries, I don't care how much a guy is being paid, so much as he helps the team win. Okay, maybe an exaggeration, but you get my point. At no point did Bosh's salary prevent the team from improving. Unless a guy is making an obscene amount of money, no salary should prevent a team from getting enough player around him to win. The only thing stopping them is either they don't get the right talent, or the player they are building around simply isn't good enough.

    And there's a difference between complimenting a player and hiding his liabilitiesr. Getting a shooter to compliment DeRozan doesn't change the dynamics of the team. Bargnani doesn't just need a PF to compliment him. He needs an entire team to make up for his rebounding deficiencies and he needs an entire team that can hide his defensive deficiencies.

    And Evans is a prefect example. Evans is a guy who rebounds and defends, but can't score. You're also not going to get very far with him as your starting PF. Dennis Rodman won 5 Championships by rebounding and defending, but he did it so well he made the All-Star team. Twice. And most importantly, he had a very high basketball IQ.

    I've said it before, but it's so difficult to win in the NBA, why handicap yourself?
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  2. #1622
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I never said you can't win without a dominant big man. But you can't win without a big man who is a good rebounder and defender.

    Neither did I. That is why the Raps need a big man like this, and Evans will not cut it. Hopefully Davis learns and matures quickly barring any other acquisition


    As for the salaries, I don't care how much a guy is being paid, so much as he helps the team win. Okay, maybe an exaggeration, but you get my point. At no point did Bosh's salary prevent the team from improving. Unless a guy is making an obscene amount of money, no salary should prevent a team from getting enough player around him to win. The only thing stopping them is either they don't get the right talent, or the player they are building around simply isn't good enough.

    When Bosh's salary, who is not a franchise player, is a max salary taking up 29% of the salary cap versus Bargnani's salary, who is also not a franchise player, that is taking up 15% of the salary cap, I would have to disagree. It would be easier to put better pieces around Bargnani than Bosh given the salary cap rules on signings.

    And there's a difference between complimenting a player and hiding his liabilitiesr. Getting a shooter to compliment DeRozan doesn't change the dynamics of the team. Bargnani doesn't just need a PF to compliment him. He needs an entire team to make up for his rebounding deficiencies and he needs an entire team that can hide his defensive deficiencies.

    That is a fair point. However his defensive liabilities are limited to the help defense. His one on one is not too bad - not great but not bad.

    And Evans is a prefect example. Evans is a guy who rebounds and defends, but can't score. You're also not going to get very far with him as your starting PF. Dennis Rodman won 5 Championships by rebounding and defending, but he did it so well he made the All-Star team. Twice. And most importantly, he had a very high basketball IQ.

    A guy like Rodman is few and far between, just like a LBJ, D-Wade, MJ, Shaq. Part of building a team is luck. The Raptors will have to find their 'Rodman' to be successful.

    I've said it before, but it's so difficult to win in the NBA, why handicap yourself?

    Few teams are able to go out and get a franchise player. Those who can't make due. Unless the Raptors draft the next superstar in the league, they'll have to make due with what they have.
    My argument is twofold:

    1) Bargnani is never going to be a great rebounder so people - not you in particular - need to get over it.

    2) The Raptors are a pre-season and 2 games in to the post Bosh era. Lets give them at least a season before saying time to get rid of Bargnani. 'Rodman' might be coming in a trade soon or they might draft the next 'superstar' in June. The reality is the very same thing Bosh needed for success in Toronto is the same thing Bargnani needs - a big body to do the dirty work.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Oct 31st, 2010 at 04:29 PM.

  3. #1623
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My argument is twofold:

    1) Bargnani is never going to be a great rebounder so people - not you in particular - need to get over it.

    2) The Raptors are a pre-season and 2 games in to the post Bosh era. Lets give them at least a season before saying time to get rid of Bargnani. 'Rodman' might be coming in a trade soon or they might draft the next 'superstar' in June. The reality is the very same thing Bosh needed for success in Toronto is the same thing Bargnani needs - a big body to do the dirty work.
    I understand your argument. But my argument is that it's been four years with Bargnani. You know what you're getting, and it's my contention that you simply can't win with him, so why keep him? My feeling is that he's not going to get any more valuable on the trade market than now. Right now, he's still got that "potential" tag. Some teams might still want to take a chance on him. As the season progresses, you can't use the excuse that he is playing behind Bosh to excuse why he isn't becoming the player some expected.

    While Bosh needs a certain type of player to compliment him, it's not as if you needed to hide his deficiencies. He was already a very good rebounder and adequate defender. Bargnani needs a player not to compliment him, but to hide his deficiencies. In my opinion, there's only one player who Bargnani could play beside who would have a hope in hell of making up for his deficiencies, and that's Joakim Noah, and Chicago ain't giving him up.
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  4. #1624
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    If we win, I honestly don't care how many boards he pulls in. In the first two games this season his awful rebounding has not hurt us too bad so am not complaining yet. He is a scorer and decent man defender, anything else he brings is gravy.
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  5. #1625
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorRoo's Avatar
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    Quote Karl Marx wrote: View Post
    The TRUE bust is Colangelo - get rid of him and his Eurocentricity!
    You much like Karl Marx are an IDIOT!!!

  6. #1626
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    I think the end of this season is a good time to evaluate AB. If he does not improve his help defence and if he does not improve his rebounding, then I think it is safe to call him a BUST as a 1st overall draft pick.

  7. #1627
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    Bargnani in no way shape or form can be considered a bust. He is providing very good ROI on the 50 mill the raps are paying him and that was before this season where his offence has already improved. Yes, he hasn't rebounded well yet but since Reggie turned into the rebounding machine he hasnt really needed to focus on that aspect. Even if his rebounding average does not improve from his career avg.(and I believe he will be an 8 rpg player going forward) he will make that up in increased scoring from his career avg.

  8. #1628
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I understand your argument. But my argument is that it's been four years with Bargnani. You know what you're getting, and it's my contention that you simply can't win with him, so why keep him? My feeling is that he's not going to get any more valuable on the trade market than now. Right now, he's still got that "potential" tag. Some teams might still want to take a chance on him. As the season progresses, you can't use the excuse that he is playing behind Bosh to excuse why he isn't becoming the player some expected.

    While Bosh needs a certain type of player to compliment him, it's not as if you needed to hide his deficiencies. He was already a very good rebounder and adequate defender. Bargnani needs a player not to compliment him, but to hide his deficiencies. In my opinion, there's only one player who Bargnani could play beside who would have a hope in hell of making up for his deficiencies, and that's Joakim Noah, and Chicago ain't giving him up.
    The 4 years with Bargnani was with a player who did not compliment each other. And I think you're being generous calling Bosh an adequate defender. Since his knees issues early in his career, he has never been what I would call an adequate defender. For all the talk of not being able to win with Bargnani, he was part of an Atlantic Championship team and a 3 seed playoff positioning as a rookie/ Albeit it was a very weak conference, they still had to play another 62 games that season besides the weak Atlantic. Had Garbo not gone down, who knows what could have been.

    As the Raptors are very much in a transition (aka rebuilding stage) it will be interesting to see what happens with the team through the development of Davis, trades, draft, and free agency. Until we see what happens with the aforementioned, I don't think it is time to cast Bargnani off just yet. Just like the clueless hot girlfriend, you don't cast them away without getting as much use out of them as you can first and making sure there is no way it could not work. With the focus on re-signing and keeping Bosh happy the last few seasons, it will be interesting to see what can be done with the team now that the distraction and his $16-17M contract is gone.

    Overall though, fair enough. I think this debate has been beaten to a deadhorse. You have your opinion and I have mine therefore we'll have to agree to disagree. However feel free to go at it again.

  9. #1629
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Bargnani in no way shape or form can be considered a bust. He is providing very good ROI on the 50 mill the raps are paying him and that was before this season where his offence has already improved. Yes, he hasn't rebounded well yet but since Reggie turned into the rebounding machine he hasnt really needed to focus on that aspect. Even if his rebounding average does not improve from his career avg.(and I believe he will be an 8 rpg player going forward) he will make that up in increased scoring from his career avg.
    Exactly! why are you guys worried about Bargs Rebounding when Reggie is being a beast on the glass. do you guys watch the games??? Reggie flys through the lane and grabs anything in sight, ive seen multiple rebounds where Reggie literally pulled it away from Andrea. To Reggie, grabbing a rebound is like scoring a bucket and i doesnt look like Andrea really cares that Reggie is taking some of his boards. If anything it makes it easier for Andrea to get back on down the court and get good possition on his man.

    In the past 5 years reggie has not grabbed more than 7.5 rebounds per game and his career average is 6.7. Over those 5 years Reggie had fewer mins per game then he is recieving from the raptors but to go from those previous numbers to 15 is just crazy. The players were all given assignments this year. Reggies was to rebound, play tough D and just be intense to pump up the crowd and teamates. Bargs seems like he was told to score, keep the big man out of the paint and attack the basket.

    Who really cares how many boards Andrea is a getting aslong as the team is winning and getting their rebounds. heres a question... whats better for the team, A or B?

    Andrea Bargnani: 21pp and 3.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans : 1 ppg and 15 rpg

    OR

    Andrea Bargnani: 21ppg and 8.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans: 1 ppg and 10 rpg

    ???

  10. #1630
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    "I don't think it is time to cast Bargnani off just yet. Just like the clueless hot girlfriend, you don't cast them away without getting as much use out of them as you can first and making sure there is no way it could not work. "

    Thats Awsome, too funnny lol

    Really though why trade Bargs? why not trade Evans for anoth great rebounder that scores a little more. Hopefully Ed Davis will fill that role and take over Reggies rebounds when hes back
    Last edited by pesterm1; Sun Oct 31st, 2010 at 06:04 PM.

  11. #1631
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    Exactly! why are you guys worried about Bargs Rebounding when Reggie is being a beast on the glass. do you guys watch the games??? Reggie flys through the lane and grabs anything in sight, ive seen multiple rebounds where Reggie literally pulled it away from Andrea. To Reggie, grabbing a rebound is like scoring a bucket and i doesnt look like Andrea really cares that Reggie is taking some of his boards. If anything it makes it easier for Andrea to get back on down the court and get good possition on his man.

    In the past 5 years reggie has not grabbed more than 7.5 rebounds per game and his career average is 6.7. Over those 5 years Reggie had fewer mins per game then he is recieving from the raptors but to go from those previous numbers to 15 is just crazy. The players were all given assignments this year. Reggies was to rebound, play tough D and just be intense to pump up the crowd and teamates. Bargs seems like he was told to score, keep the big man out of the paint and attack the basket.

    Who really cares how many boards Andrea is a getting aslong as the team is winning and getting their rebounds. heres a question... whats better for the team, A or B?

    Andrea Bargnani: 21pp and 3.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans : 1 ppg and 15 rpg

    OR

    Andrea Bargnani: 21ppg and 8.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans: 1 ppg and 10 rpg

    ???
    If it were JUST the lack of rebounding, I MIGHT be able to live with it. But Bargnani also is poor at boxing out, which means he not only doesn't get rebounds, but basically gives them to the man he is guarding by not preventing him.

    And no one has brought up defense. Bargnani hasn't improved on defense. The coaches said as much. Rebounding is one thing, but rebounding AND defense? We're not talking about a hot girl with a boring personality. We're talking about a hot girl with a boring personality and herpes. Dump her now. It will only end badly if you keep her.
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  12. #1632
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    "We're not talking about a hot girl with a boring personality. We're talking about a hot girl with a boring personality and herpes. Dump her now. It will only end badly if you keep her. "

    lol a little harsh comparison, more like a hot chick with psycho parents and a gross laugh perhaps?
    But if Bargs has Herpes, poor rebounding, and bad defence then i say TRADE HIM lol

  13. #1633
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    Greg Oden, Kwame Brown, and Darko Milicic - Busts of the decade. Oh, Oden will also not be offered an extension on his rookie contract.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  14. #1634
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    Marz, I started off at the 1984 draft, which produced many Hall-of-Famers. From then until Bargnani, for me it works out to 2:1. I would call Andrew Bogut and Elton Brand franchise players (Bogut has been on an All-NBA team and Brand was unstoppable until his leg injury).

  15. #1635
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    Exactly! why are you guys worried about Bargs Rebounding when Reggie is being a beast on the glass. do you guys watch the games??? Reggie flys through the lane and grabs anything in sight, ive seen multiple rebounds where Reggie literally pulled it away from Andrea. To Reggie, grabbing a rebound is like scoring a bucket and i doesnt look like Andrea really cares that Reggie is taking some of his boards. If anything it makes it easier for Andrea to get back on down the court and get good possition on his man.

    In the past 5 years reggie has not grabbed more than 7.5 rebounds per game and his career average is 6.7. Over those 5 years Reggie had fewer mins per game then he is recieving from the raptors but to go from those previous numbers to 15 is just crazy. The players were all given assignments this year. Reggies was to rebound, play tough D and just be intense to pump up the crowd and teamates. Bargs seems like he was told to score, keep the big man out of the paint and attack the basket.

    Who really cares how many boards Andrea is a getting aslong as the team is winning and getting their rebounds. heres a question... whats better for the team, A or B?

    Andrea Bargnani: 21pp and 3.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans : 1 ppg and 15 rpg

    OR

    Andrea Bargnani: 21ppg and 8.5 rpg
    Reggie Evans: 1 ppg and 10 rpg

    ???

    Exactly, I think all the haters would still be whining about Bargnani if he scored 30 points a game. He's had 2 games with low rebounds while Reggie who is playing right along side him is getting 15 boards. Obviously, someone needs to focus on scoring because regardless of how important it is for a 7 footer to rebound, if he's the best scoring option on the team that needs to be his main focus. As for his team defense, that is obviously still a work in progress but the fact of the matter is that he can yield a little there as long as others due their part because those others are not producing the offensive output that Bargnani is...

  16. #1636
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    Do I think he's a bust? No.

    Do I think we'd be better off with a center who can only score 10 points per game but 10+ rebounds per game? Yes.

    Do I think we can ever be successful with a starting center who can't rebound? Nope.
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  17. #1637
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    No dude, watch the games. Reggie is fighting for every rebound, he won't allow anyone to grab his boards :P
    I'm sorry, that is a stupid excuse, unless he's guard or is too far away to rebound the ball, there should be no other reason why he should have at least try getting rebounds, how do you play over 30 minutes and still only get one rebound? Banks played effing 3 minutes and he got a rebound!

  18. #1638
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    No dude, watch the games. Reggie is fighting for every rebound, he won't allow anyone to grab his boards :P
    You must be trying to come off sarcastically because you can't actually believe those words somehow justify or rationalize Bargnani's lethargic lackadaisical approach to rebounding, hustling, boxing out, defensive rotations, floor burns and the like....smh

    Someone needs to put a foot in Barg's ass and kick him into the painted area whenever a shot goes up......smh

  19. #1639
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Marz, I started off at the 1984 draft, which produced many Hall-of-Famers. From then until Bargnani, for me it works out to 2:1. I would call Andrew Bogut and Elton Brand franchise players (Bogut has been on an All-NBA team and Brand was unstoppable until his leg injury).
    Glenn Robinson was most definitely a Franchise player especially at the start of his career as well. Big Dog was a certified 20 ppg boss back in the day. Allen, Cassell & Robinson lead Milwaukee to alot of wins while they were together back in the day.

    Barg's isn't a bust just a disappointment after 4 plus years......smh

  20. #1640
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    Without Bargs, we lose games. all you haters should follow ur hero CB to tranny Miami and shut dee hell up

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