Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[NoPropsneeded]

I agree that the perimiter is the best potential help for the defense. With Bayless inserted into the starting line up, JJ losing weight we should be slightly better without any moves. With that being said it'd be nice to have a Tony Allen, Battier, Affallo or Batum type off the bench to bring some grit/different look.

ya our defense should improve quite a bit next season. With Bayless starting, JJ losing weight,Ed putting on some muscle and DeMar working with D Case we should be a bit better on the defensive end next season. Lets hope bargnani improves his defense too(if he's still on this team)

[RAPresenting]

ya our defense should improve quite a bit next season. With Bayless starting, JJ losing weight,Ed putting on some muscle and DeMar working with D Case we should be a bit better on the defensive end next season. Lets hope bargnani improves his defense too(if he's still on this team)

Your right 4 of the 5 starters are almost guaranteed (I have Davis starting over Amir opening night) from last season. With a better system implemented by Casey and holding Dre accountable/keeping him focused there is good reason to believe all 5 will be better. Only time will tell but I don't think there is anywhere but up to go for the club.

[footarez]

Yes I also expect most of the team to be better(I'm sorry except Bargani he just hasn't showed much defensive improvement..ever) and only by that we will win many more games.Actually does anyone have the number of last season for how many games we were beaten by 1-7 points in the last 2-3 minutes of the 4th quarter. In my memory(based on broken objects in my home ) there were many of those games. I believe if that gets fixed by default we should win at least 10 more games next season without any significant roster change.

[RAPresenting]

Yes I also expect most of the team to be better(I'm sorry except Bargani he just hasn't showed much defensive improvement..ever) and only by that we will win many more games.Actually does anyone have the number of last season for how many games we were beaten by 1-7 points in the last 2-3 minutes of the 4th quarter. In my memory(based on broken objects in my home ) there were many of those games. I believe if that gets fixed by default we should win at least 10 more games next season without any significant roster change.

Not sure on the number of game lost in the final minutes but there were definitely a number of them. I'd like to see the team compete night in night out but still manage to get into the lottery. Seeing as how we're not going to attract any free agents the best way to improve is through the draft. With having a solid foundation going forward (Demar, Ed, Dre, JV, Amir, Bayless and JJ) we just need that star player to bring it together and next year has a few of them. Adding that missing piece and sprinkling in some vets and we're a team on the rise fast.

[NoPropsneeded]

even if bargnani can average 6.5 Rpg, around 1 block and play in the paint more often i'd be pretty happy.

[Matt52]

even if bargnani can average 6.5 Rpg, around 1 block and play in the paint more often i'd be pretty happy.

Comparing that statement with similar prior seasons statements is similar to a guy's standards for 'companionship' at the bar 15 minutes to closing time versus around 10pm.

[NoPropsneeded]

Comparing that statement with similar prior seasons statements is similar to a guy's standards for 'companionship' at the bar 15 minutes to closing time versus around 10pm.

i have no idea what your talking about...

[Tim W.]

even if bargnani can average 6.5 Rpg, around 1 block and play in the paint more often i'd be pretty happy.

What about defense? What about effort Who cares if the guy gets a block and game and 6.5 rpg if he's a complete liability on defense?

[Tim W.]

i have no idea what your talking about...

It's all about standards. You seem to have pretty low standards for Bargnani.

[Matt52]

i have no idea what your talking about...

Each season the bar keeps getting lowered for Bargnani with regards to rebounding and/or defense. Very early in his career it was 9-10, then 8-9, then 7-8, now we are hoping for 6.5.

[NoPropsneeded]

Each season the bar keeps getting lowered for Bargnani with regards to rebounding and/or defense. Very early in his career it was 9-10, then 8-9, then 7-8, now we are hoping for 6.5.

lol thats true. Well i guess there's only one option... trade him

[matt]

It's bleach report guys. I mean I don't take Doug's words seriously, yet you guys have managed to make a 4 page thread about this -_-

[Hugmenot]

For the arguments that Dre guards the other teams weaker big this is only relevant this past year.

The funny thing is the people who advance this "theory" are the same people who point out how high the opponent's center PER is.

If Bargnani is really guarding the weaker of the opponent's bigs, why the heck are they blaming Bargnani for the good offensive centers performance against the Raptors when in their own words, he is guarding the other big?

It's all BS from people who will contradict themselves every other sentence by stating a non-fact to advance their own personal agenda. The same people who claim defense is a team's game but yet refuse to consider how the presence of Bargnani on the court impacts the offensive performance of his teammates.

[GarbageTime]

The funny thing is the people who advance this "theory" are the same people who point out how high the opponent's center PER is.

If Bargnani is really guarding the weaker of the opponent's bigs, why the heck are they blaming Bargnani for the good offensive centers performance against the Raptors when in their own words, he is guarding the other big?

It's all BS from people who will contradict themselves every other sentence by stating a non-fact to advance their own personal agenda. The same people who claim defense is a team's game but yet refuse to consider how the presence of Bargnani on the court impacts the offensive performance of his teammates.

Umm I think you are highly missing the point. Bargnani is covering the weaker check and YET that same player is still putting up ridiculously good numbers. I don't think Jay checked Harangody's or Speight's PER part way through the game and said, "oops, we better put Andrea on Garnett/Brand" His check put up ridiculously productive numbers DESPITE being the weaker player. Now alot of that had to do with offensive rebounds, easy put backs and him out of position rather than their offensive skills, but thats still his responsibility.

I don't think anyone refuses to acknowledge his offensive impact... its just that is defensive impact outweighs that offense.

[Tim W.]

The funny thing is the people who advance this "theory" are the same people who point out how high the opponent's center PER is.

If Bargnani is really guarding the weaker of the opponent's bigs, why the heck are they blaming Bargnani for the good offensive centers performance against the Raptors when in their own words, he is guarding the other big?

It's all BS from people who will contradict themselves every other sentence by stating a non-fact to advance their own personal agenda. The same people who claim defense is a team's game but yet refuse to consider how the presence of Bargnani on the court impacts the offensive performance of his teammates.

Well, I've never contradicted myself on this subject, and if I have, I'd like you to show me where. I've consistently, all season long, said that Bargnani has usually defended the weaker frontcourt player. Not always, but most of the time. And Bargnani's man usually ends up being more productive being defended by Bargnani than usual. That's not opinion, those are actual stats. And that doesn't mean he doesn't defend the center. Often times Bargnani does defend the center because the center position isn't exactly one of strength in the NBA at this time.

Speaking of agendas, what exactly is YOUR argument? Are you arguing that Bargnani isn't, in fact, a bad defender? I don't think you can find a person connected with the NBA who would say he's anything BUT a bad defender. And I think everyone here understands Bargnani's impact on the offensive end. Unfortunately when you try and defend someone's defense by saying he makes a big impact on offense, that pretty much sums it up. And unfortunately the impact Bargnani makes on offense doesn't make up for the negative impact he has on defense. And the stats back me up on this, unfortunately.

[Soft Euro]

Following up on the post of Hugmenot I have to say that there has been too little evidence presented for the arguments made. I'm not going to state that Bargnani isn't a bad defender, but I think that the argumentation could be improved upon. There have been statements about the play of opponents and I've decided to break down one of those, the 23-point performance of Speights (10 of 12) on january 26th. That performance has been ascribed to Bargnani in this thread, but the evidence will show that this certainly is not the complete story.

From the evidence presented below we can conclude that Bargnani wasn't the one defending Speights all the time. Furthermore, many of his points came off missed rotations and a weakness on defending the P&R. In the examples below from this game Bargnani was right in rotating to defend the P&R ballhandler.

So, from this moment on I suggest the performance of Speights on jan 26th of 2011 will no longer be used in posts trying to prove how bad Bargnani is in relation to the other (frontcourt) defenders on our team.

I've given quarters and time (+/-) so it can be verified.

quarter: 2
time left:10.50
what?: post up
result: made basket
description: defender Ed Davis

quarter: 2
time left: 10.20
what?: transition lay-up
result: made basket
description: There was nobody back...

quarter: 2
time left: 9.40
what?: offensive rebound
result: free throws
description: Calderon is beat on a screen. Bargnani comes over to prevent a free shot. Davis is defending Young. Calderon goes with Speights, but is just too small to challenge him for the rebound.

quarter: 2
time left: 9.14
what?: cut > layup
result: made basket
description: Iguodala goes bye Weems pretty easily. Davis is behind him and should step in to help on the penetration, but is too late. Bargnani leaves Speights to prevent a layup but like Davis doesn't really commit enough. Iguodal throws the ball up to Speights who has a free layup.

quarter: 2
time left: 8.55
what?: Layup
result: made basket
description: Iguodala gets the ball from Young close to the basket. Young walks to the weakside under the basket. Amir Johnson, who was defending Young, decides not to follow him but to help on Iguodala trying to tie him up. A the moment Young comes over, Speights, who was guarded by Bargnani, goes to just below the free throw line. Bargnani decides to stay with Young. Iguodala uses his body to create passing space and gets the ball to Speights who has an easy lay-up

quarter: 2
time left: 8.10
what?: P&R > layup
result: made basket
description: Speights sets a pick for Holiday. Calderon loses him and Bargnani picks up him. Calderon tries to recover on Holiday, Young creates space by getting out of the paint, Speights rolls to the basket. There is no help or rotation and Speights gets the easy 2.

quarter: 2
time left: 6.04
what?: offensive rebound
result: extra possession
description: Bargnani defendes Young, Johnson is on Speights who is also fronted by DeRozan. Johnson doesn't box out and Speights gets the offensive rebound.

quarter: 2
time left: 4.45
what?: P&R
result: free throws
description: Exactly the same play as at 8.10. Again no rotation or help on Speights after Bargnani has to pick up the guard. Johnson frooze but tries to grab him as he blows by.

quarter: 3
time left: 1.20
what?: Spot-up Jumper
result: made basket
description: defended by Ed Davis

quarter: 3
time left: 0.48
what?: something
result: turnover
description: Speights is defended by Davis. He tries to make a move (or something) and loses the ball.

quarter: 4
time left: 10.40
what?: dunk
result: made basket
description: Bargnani leaves Young to try to trap Lou Williams with Bayless. Young is completely open at the free throw line; Williams passes to Turner. Davis leaves Speights to defend Young and Speights gets the ball for an easy dunk.

[RAPresenting]

Very interesting read thanks for putting in the work. More interesting should be the responds of the posters that were bringing this game up several times. Peoples memories of games are usually bias to there favorite players or in this case most hated. It's a typical trend for people to use the guy as a scape goat for the teams lack of success on the defensive end. Is the guy a Great defender definitely not but he's not nearly as bad as most are making him out to be.

Advanced stats are interesting but not always a way of describing ones affect on the game. If our guards/wings are constantly being blown by it's going to break down the defense. When help comes and the pass is dumped off for dunks and layups it can't always be pinned on the big. I'm not defending the guy and saying he's perfect (not near) but our team as a whole needs to be better on that end of the court not just him.

[Tim W.]

I usually hate saying things like this, but anyone who thinks that Bargnani is anything better than a bad defender knows little to nothing about basketball, or has simply not watched him play.

[Soft Euro]

And we all agree, but that does not mean bad arguments are ok.

Edit: and btw I don't like arguments like the the one you just made as well, but i guess you're getting worn down.

[Tim W.]

And we all agree, but that does not mean bad arguments are ok.

Without people making bad arguments, I wouldn't have any fun!