Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[albertan_10]

I started a thread yesterday that focused on the speculation of the team showcasing Calderon's talents coming up to the trade deadline. I was happy with the reply but it sparked an interest in this subject. No this isn't a trade proposal so don't move it to the other forum. I want to hear people's opinions about Bargnani and why in my other thread they'd like to see him go before Calderon.

First off I am not oblivious to the guy's weaknesses. He obviously has defensive issues that we would all like to see him get rid of. I'll ask the question though, if he learnt how to play it, would you want to keep him? He'd be by far the best lottery pick of that year if he can figure it out.

Fact is Bargnani is a good basketball player with a weakness, but if you trade everyone because of a single weakness then you'll probably end up moving everyone on every team. Even Carmelo is a one dimensional player, but I digress. I'll start the thread off by saying that Bargnani has too much upside to move him just yet. He's not a Kwame Brown who is expendable because he's just like the next guy. He has shown us flashes of what he is capable of and he will keep improving. The opinion that I've seen around the league is that centers don't really figure things out until they're about 28 or 29. haha, maybe he's even the opposite of Dwight howard. Dwight had the defense down and is just now learning how to play offense.

What do you think? Is he bad enough that he should be traded or should they keep developing him?

[MangoKid]

For what he produces, I'd say that he's worth his contract. I'd keep the guy. I feel as though his game is only going to evolve even more. He's only 25.

[WhatWhat]

(I'd like to see Calderon go before Bargnani.)

I was a huge Bargnani fan, he was my favourite player on the team, but the time is waiting to his defense to improve has passed. He just doesn't have the innate defensive instincts. Maybe he's overthinking things, trying to override his natural guard tendencies. It slows him down, and that time spent thinking "I have to help here" is crucial.

If we got realistic, and just made his a 6th man and reduced his minutes, I'd be willing to keep him. He would murder 2nd units, and could get away with his D. With the reduced minutes, he'd probably go back to looking almost passable, like he was last year. But that's unlikely, almost as unlikely as him being moved. So we're still going to try and continue to contort the entire roster to justify him starting. For example, he's the 3rd worst rebounding 7 footer ever. (That have played over 900 minutes, sorted by rebounding rate in ascending order. 128 players on that list.) I just can't see it. You can think that he's going to improve, but would be a drastic and unheard of improvement as far as I can tell.

But I'd rather get a combo guard to be our 6th man, find a defensive center to start and get a scoring SF. I'm tired of hide starting players on the defensive end. You hide them on the offense. ("But, but DeRozan..." 1. He's not nearly as problematic as Calderon or Bargnani are. Not even close. 2. He's shown improvement of late...very late. 3. He has the work ethic and said that he wants to be an all-around player. 4. If he's still *that* bad defensively in 3 years or so, I'll want him gone too.)

That just my opinion. I just can't see us succeeding with either of them starting. I'm still adamant about how terrible the defensive combo of Calderon and Bargnani are.

[sillydebate]

I'd rather pursue moving him to the 4 spot if there was a big that could play centre. Seeing our bigs against Gasol and Randolph when Memphis was here was telling. The experts say his natural position is at the 4 and ideally he would play there both ways. When Reggie's healthy, he takes a bit of the defensive burden off Bargnani but until there is a wide-body centre that is the reality we have to live with. Is easier to get someone with Bargnani's skill set and size or to get a BIG that could play starter minutes? The last thing I'd want to see is Bargnani head to a team with that big centre already in place, Bargnani play his natural position and flourish. We've had 5 years to find a bigger center. Granted, 4 of those years we decided to keep Bosh at the 4 and keep starting Bargnani, but shake those trees and see if there is another Tyson Chandler type that the Raps can pry off someone's roster or out of the draft. Sit tight.

[Multipaul]

Keep Bargs, trade Caldy. I would like to see a lineup with Bargs at the 4 and a big brusing player at the 5. Man, I wish we picked up Tyson Chandler. Reggie was good too, come back soon homey. Call me crazy, but despite the emotinal baggage i would love to see Demarcus Cousins as our 5. Or Dejuan Blair, but you better believe the Spurs aren't moving him.

[djsunyc]

you get a 2 way SF (in the iggy mold) - like jeff green and you get a defensive minded center (in the verejao/brendan haywood mold), then bargs at the 4 is shielded defensively.

what would dirk look like on this roster right now? probably just as bad, if not worse defensively than bargs. but dallas was smart and insulated him with guys like josh howard + damp and now with marion/butler and chandler/haywood.

keep bargs - 20ppg games on good shooting for $9-10 mil a year are tough to find.

and if you think about it...we almost did that with the jose deal - diaw + chandler at the 3 & 5 are good defenders...

[MangoKid]

I'd rather pursue moving him to the 4 spot if there was a big that could play centre. Seeing our bigs against Gasol and Randolph when Memphis was here was telling. The experts say his natural position is at the 4 and ideally he would play there both ways. When Reggie's healthy, he takes a bit of the defensive burden off Bargnani but until there is a wide-body centre that is the reality we have to live with. Is easier to get someone with Bargnani's skill set and size or to get a BIG that could play starter minutes? The last thing I'd want to see is Bargnani head to a team with that big centre already in place, Bargnani play his natural position and flourish. We've had 5 years to find a bigger center. Granted, 4 of those years we decided to keep Bosh at the 4 and keep starting Bargnani, but shake those trees and see if there is another Tyson Chandler type that the Raps can pry off someone's roster or out of the draft. Sit tight.

Or... you can wait till the draft and draft a guy like Kanter or Sullinger.

[MangoKid]

Keep Bargs, trade Caldy. I would like to see a lineup with Bargs at the 4 and a big brusing player at the 5. Man, I wish we picked up Tyson Chandler. Reggie was good too, come back soon homey. Call me crazy, but despite the emotinal baggage i would love to see Demarcus Cousins as our 5. Or Dejuan Blair, but you better believe the Spurs aren't moving him.

Blair will probably be out of the league in 5 years. No ACL's will do that to a fella.

[jeff_hostetler]

Well, see, the problem with Bargnani isn't just limited to Bargnani. It's a Raptor-wide issue.

The problem with the Raptors is that the team is filled purely with one-dimensional players. Let's break it down (Bolded players with a semblance of a legit skill set):

PG. Calderon: Assists
SG. Derozan: Scoring
SF. Wright: Defense
PF. Amir: Rebounding/Defense/Minor Offense
C. Bargnani: Scoring

Bayless: Scoring/little bit of everything else
Barbosa: Scoring
Kleiza: Rebounding/Offense
Davis: Rebounding/Defense
Evans: Rebounding
Dorsey: Rebounding

The problem is not that the above is a list of everyone's best attributes. It's that the above is a list of everyone's total attributes.

So. Why single out Bargnani then when you've got a full roster plagued with inadequacy? Because when you look at the list, he's the guy whose single skill is the least suited to his position. If you're going to fill your roster with one dimensional players (bad strategy) as the Raptors have done, at least make sure that that one dimension is complementary to the position they play.

Now, if you ask me, every player on the roster should have a /Defense after their primary skill. And if any position requires defense not as a secondary skill, but as a primary, it is the Center.

[charlz]

For what he produces, I'd say that he's worth his contract. I'd keep the guy. I feel as though his game is only going to evolve even more. He's only 25.

I disagree - you will never be great defensively and have a playoff team with his lack-luster approach to defense. Gives up more than he gets is true.

[knickz]

Keep Bargs, trade Caldy. I would like to see a lineup with Bargs at the 4 and a big brusing player at the 5. Man, I wish we picked up Tyson Chandler. Reggie was good too, come back soon homey. Call me crazy, but despite the emotinal baggage i would love to see Demarcus Cousins as our 5. Or Dejuan Blair, but you better believe the Spurs aren't moving him.

some of you guys make me laugh with your fantasy rosters

[knickz]

bargs has to go in my imo...the fact you are 7 feet playing heaving minutes and grabbing under 6 boards is fucking disgusting...he doesn't dive for loose balls, lazy on defense, and isn't mentally tough enough to lead this team

[Tim W.]

albertan_10 ,

The problem is you downplay Bargnani's weaknesses. MOST players have weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they are liabilities. Carmelo is a one dimensional player, but if he's not scoring, he doesn't necessarily hurt the team. If Bargnani is not scoring more than 25 ppg, he's literally hurting the team because he's such a poor defensive player and rebounder. Overall, he's got a negative impact on the team when he's on the floor. That's fine if he were in his first couple of years and was still somewhat raw, but this is his fifth year in the league. If he "figured it out" then I'd be fine with keeping him, obviously, but there's been literally no indication that he will.

The big problem, I find, is that a lot of Bargnani supporters understate the skill and ability to learn to become a good defender. The mantra seems to be "that he can learn to be a good defender". Well, it's about as difficult for Amir to become a 20 ppg scorer as it is for Bargnani to become a good defender. Especially after 4.5 years.

[Tim W.]

For what he produces, I'd say that he's worth his contract. I'd keep the guy. I feel as though his game is only going to evolve even more. He's only 25.

What does it matter what he's getting paid? If he doesn't help your team win (which Bargnani doesn't, for the most part), then he could be paid the minimum and he'd still be a liability.

And his offense certainly could evolve, but his defense and rebounding hasn't in 4.5 years in the league, what makes you think it's going to now?

[Brasky]

Keep him as a backup Centre.

[jeff_hostetler]

Keep him as a backup Centre.

That would be perfect. Too bad it will never happen.

[Multipaul]

King Bargs

[MangoKid]

What does it matter what he's getting paid? If he doesn't help your team win (which Bargnani doesn't, for the most part), then he could be paid the minimum and he'd still be a liability.

And his offense certainly could evolve, but his defense and rebounding hasn't in 4.5 years in the league, what makes you think it's going to now?

It matters if you're getting your money's worth. He's not a franchise guy, that's already been established, but he's not rubbish. He's a talented player. Who exactly are you going to replace him with? Is he a one dimensional player? Sure. Could he stand to be a better rebounder and defender? Sure. If you're looking to salary dump him, it makes no sense.

[Balls of Steel]

albertan_10 ,

The problem is you downplay Bargnani's weaknesses. MOST players have weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they are liabilities. Carmelo is a one dimensional player, but if he's not scoring, he doesn't necessarily hurt the team. If Bargnani is not scoring more than 25 ppg, he's literally hurting the team because he's such a poor defensive player and rebounder. Overall, he's got a negative impact on the team when he's on the floor. That's fine if he were in his first couple of years and was still somewhat raw, but this is his fifth year in the league. If he "figured it out" then I'd be fine with keeping him, obviously, but there's been literally no indication that he will.

The big problem, I find, is that a lot of Bargnani supporters understate the skill and ability to learn to become a good defender. The mantra seems to be "that he can learn to be a good defender". Well, it's about as difficult for Amir to become a 20 ppg scorer as it is for Bargnani to become a good defender. Especially after 4.5 years.

Tim W. thank you for not drinking the Bargnani Kool-Aid. I think people are downplaying his effect on the team. When people look at Bargs, they can't seem to shy away from the 22+ ppg. What they fail to realize is that if your supposed #1 or even #2 isn't putting it out there, the OTHER players' motivation is not where they should. Fine, they're grown men, paid with a lot of money for doing what they love. They should be grateful, blah, blah, blah. However, the reality is that really good teams have leaders. And no, they're not the best scorers, athletes out there. Garnett for all his shenanigans and garbage talk, is not what he used to be as an athlete. But man, he affects that team (the same with Kendrick Perkins, Udonis Haslem for the Heat, Tyson Chandler for the Mavs, need I go on?).

Here's the thing, let's say we scored Perry Jones and Kyrie Irving (hypothetical of course) and play with our current young guys for the next three years. Would they gel and play like the Thunders or even better? Maybe, but not with Bargs in the middle. His position demands that he rebound the ball, block shots and provide help defence. For those that feel that he should be a 4, guess again. The quicker, elite level 4's and MOST 4's of this league (Stoudemire, Boozer, Randolph, Love, etc.) will eat him alive.

Yes, my response to this thread is utterly predictable but its mine to share. Sell high BC, sell high. The Bargs Kool-Aid does not need any more refills.

[Raptor4Ever]

albertan_10 ,

The problem is you downplay Bargnani's weaknesses. MOST players have weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they are liabilities. .

AB has weaknesses but he is by far more talented than anyone else in this team. If you want to talk about weaknesses that are liabilities then talk about Weems, Johnson and ....

This is a team which has no talent except Jose, AB and DD and the rest of the guys will barely make the end of the bench in a real competive team.

Now, if we managed to teach Amir ONE post move or DD how to defend his man or ... and made a desent team, then it makes sense to trade AB or limit his role.

Till then, Trading AB ( which will never happen since BC has little common sense still left in him) is plain stupid move.