View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3241
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    Depends who you are trading him to, what else you are giving or getting or ...

    I am sure you can get guys like Jeff Green from OKC , Iugodela from 76ers, Elton Brand + 1 round pick from 76ers, Dalembert+ Casspi + Picks from Sacramento and ....

    Trust me, there are ton of teams who think they can make him play defense, rebound the ball better while they know that he is very unique for a 7 footer with that foot speed, shooting and passing abilities.

    As far as developing Amir He is 23 , I give you that but he has been in the league fo 5 years so he is prety close to his ceiling and is quite develope. The guy at its best is a 3rd player off the bench in a good team.

  2. #3242
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Base year compensation

    Certain players in the first few months of a new contract are subject to base year compensation (BYC). The intent of BYC is to prevent teams from re-signing players to salaries specifically targeted to match other salaries in a trade (in other words, salary should be based on basketball value, not trade value). A BYC player's trade value as outgoing salary is 50% of his new salary, or his previous salary, whichever is greater. BYC applies only to players who re-sign with their previous team and receive a raise greater than 20%. It also applies only when (and as long as) the team is over the salary cap.


    This could be a good or bad factor. Good for us because we don't have to take on a bad contract to make it happen (ie, 8.5 mil goes out the door with 4.25 coming in?). I'm not sure, but someone can correct me on this. This can ultimately determine what we get in return for someone like Bargs. I'd love Marc Gasol personally but again, as a BYC player, I dunno how this is going to work (like getting prized players on rookie contracts?).
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Sun Jan 30th, 2011 at 05:53 PM.
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  3. #3243
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    Before, I was wildly against it, but since he's expiring next year, I think a trade for Kaman would be possible.

  4. #3244
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    Default Bargnani's Rebounding Problems OVERRATED..

    For all you rebound fetish bloggers,, A quick look at the leader board and some simple math reveals 3 more rebounds a game will put Bargnani in the top 15 in rebounding in the entire league. With the exception of a handful of players there is not much of a seperation margin between the top rebounders and the avereage rebounders. For Example Al Horford who avereage 9.8 rebounds is ranked 8th in the league. Bargnani who pulls down 5.6 a measly 4 rebounds less per game is ranked 54th.

    But you must look beyond the rebounding numbers to understand why Bargnani is averaging less rebounds than expected.

    Distance Shooter:
    Bargnani is a high volume DISTANCE shooter and therefore is not near the basket or can't rebound his own shot. Since he takes a large percentage of the teams shot this a big disadvantage. Lost Rebounding Opportunity #1)

    When ever your a scoring threat there are no freebies:
    Look at players like Ed Davis and Amir Johnson why do you think their offensive rebounding numbers are so high? It's because teams don't have any respect for their offensive games giving them free lanes to the basket because they aren't being guarded with the same intensity as players such as Bargnani and Derozan Lost Rebounding Opportunity #2

    Decoy Factor:
    Bargnani often stands outside the three point line which often creates more room for his teamates because opposing bigs must respect his outside shot (3 pointer very effective when healthy). Obviously standing outside the 3 point line isan't the most ideal place to grab rebounds from lost rebounding opportunity #3

    Mobile Big Man Factor:
    Bargnani is much different then your protypical big man ala dwight howard who gets most of his points and rebounds simply by overpowering players and dunking. Bargnani expands lots of energy on the offensive end espeically when he drives from the 3 point line. Then he must run back on defense and guard the other teams biggest and strongest player and after all this he must grab a rebound. He is at a complete disadvantage most of the time Lost Opportunity #4

    No other shooting threats:
    Other than Jose, and on occasion Demar Toronto has no real shooting threats which means teams lag off our other shooters and can gang rebound much easier leaving less rebounds for Bargnani. When Bargnani has the ball defense sag toward his him assuming he can score, whereas when other player have the ball they sag towards the basket assuming we miss.

    Bargnani's rebounding has been greatly blown out of proportion and people should look elsewhere for a solution to the raptors problems.
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Sun Jan 30th, 2011 at 07:02 PM.

  5. #3245
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    I do agree we should explore trading AB ... but I wouldn't get too excited about it. He's a talented basketball player. For whatever reason(s) he isn't helping our team. He's still worth a fair bit, and I wouldn't trade him unless we get a starter back again (or a very high draft pick).

    Names that come to mind include a Marcin Gortat, an Andrew Bynum (I'll take the injury risk now) or a Marc Gasol (I gather there is a contract situation to deal with?). If I were on the other side of those trades I would at least consider them. Also a Roy Hibbert would be good, but I don't know if we could get him.

    I would also get a dedicated big man coach in, and work the heck out of the prospects we have. We have two raw centers that could make something very interesting of themselves (he says, looking at Roy Hibbert).

  6. #3246
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    The Matt Bullard Award – This award goes to the player 6’10″ or taller with the lowest Total Rebound Percentage. (Minimum 200 minutes)

    There are several strong candidates for this award and the list reads like a who’s who of soft, fluffy, squishy, finesse players. Danilo Gallinari, Donte Greene, Hedo Turkoglu, Matt Bonner, Rashard Lewis, Andrea Bargnani, Brook Lopez and Vlad Radmanovic are all in the running. Gallinari currently has the lead grabbing just 7.4% of the available rebounds while he’s on the floor. However, this race just has too many big names to project a winner at this point.
    (Inb4 you use the last sentence to pathetically try to discredit the entire article.)

    Distance Shooter + Decoy

    Sure, why not. His being so far away from the basket is why he's a bad offensive rebounder. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are good offensive rebounder because they're talented at it. The existence of Kevin Love, who only shoots .4 less 3s than Bargnani game AND rebounds as well doesn't make your argument so good either.

    No other shooting threats
    So that's why Bargnani's pathetic rebounding has regressed after Bosh left? And dude NOBODY sags off someone driving to the basket, gtfo with this.

    Actually, all of this really only outlines why Bargnani is a terrible offensive rebounder. And you're using raw number, which don't account for pace. (Example: Love wouldn't be grabbing 15 boards a game if they didn't play at the fastest pace in the league, but his total rebound percent would still be the highest in the if they slowed down.)

    Bargnani is the 53rd worst player out of 616 players 6'10 and over in total rebounding rate.
    Cut that list down to just 7 footers and he's the 13th worst ever. Make it 7 foot players that have played more than 900 minutes in their career and he's the 3rd worst ever.

    This would be okay if he actually were scoring efficiently or a decent defensive rebounder, like Dirk, but neither are the case.

    He's a shitty, shitty rebounder-regardless of what position does or doesn't play and it is not being blown out of proportion. This ESPN article must just nonsense. Reggie Evans having a career year rebounding is a coincidence too.

  7. #3247
    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    Thank you.

    I've spent so much time reading about people defend Bargnani's lack of rebounding, I just can't be bothered to try to rebuttal anymore. I think there's a simple rule in this league.


    If you play PF/C, you're expected to rebound.

    If you play PG, you're expected to assist and set your guys up.

    If you're SG/SF, you're expected to essentially play the role of the Swingman and score, penetrate, draw fouls, etc.

    And everyone, EVERYONE is expected to play defense.

  8. #3248
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    I heard three reasons for why Andrea is a weak offensive rebounder. That's fine. I don't mind him being weak at this specific stat.

    I heard zero reasons for why Andrea is a weak defensive rebounder, and is often outrebounded by the guy who he is guarding ... other than that he gets a bit lazy (in his own words). That's what annoys me and others.

  9. #3249
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    I think your sorta lookin at this as a rebound has an equal value to a point, thats not rly the case or there would be alot more 20 rebounding averaging players in the league than wat we have now, the way i would sorta look at it is, 1 rebound is equal to 2 points or maybe even more, this would then mean, 4 rebounds difference from Al horford would be a lot more substantial

    On tat note i don mind if he doesnt rebound much... i do mind when other big men kick his damn ass at rebounding and get offensive boards off him cause he's either too pansy or lazy to make a decent effort at rebounding or boxing his damn man out of the post....

    He has shown that at times he can do it......... but those performances R WAY TOOO FAR AND INBETWEEN

  10. #3250
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    The cherry on top, especially it's still disturbingly relevant:
    http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...3/22/bargnani/
    The fifth month of the fourth season, and still no conclusion. Except that Andrea Bargnani is lazy.

    That comes from someone extremely close to him. The part about being inconsistent and passive, about one moment lending encouragement to the Raptors' postseason hopes and the next becoming a face of the fade -- and, yes, the part about wearing the status as No. 1 pick like an anvil necklace -- that's from everyone else.

    The Raptors are mud wrestling with the Bulls to see who plays less bad and makes the Eastern Conference playoffs. Franchise cornerstone Chris Bosh, weighing whether to leave as a free agent, will probably take the collective pulse of the roster into consideration. All of this is happening while Bargnani is eight months into an extension reportedly worth $50 million over five years. This might be a good time for Bargnani to develop some career stability. Or some 2009-10 stability.

    This was to have been the season of finally grasping his potential. It isn't. He is shooting better than ever, scoring more than ever, rebounding in a way that gives coaches more encouragement than ever that he can be a presence on the boards. And yet Bargnani is going backward when the Raptors need him most. Maddening -- that's the other thing he is more than ever.

    Coach Jay Triano just told Toronto reporters that the Raps need Bargnani to focus more. Uh-oh. When a sprained ankle cost Bosh six games in late February and early March, Bargnani was more active and appeared more confident. It made the season feel like a breakout. Not a starring season, but at least one on a definite upswing. That's something after three seasons of never averaging more than 15.4 points or 5.3 rebounds or topping 45 percent as a skilled 7-footer with a major investment behind him. The 24-year-old Italian was at 18.2 points, 6.7 rebounds and 46.5 percent in January and 19 points, 5.8 rebounds and 49.3 percent in February.

    "I just think he's added to his game a little bit all the time," Triano said in praising the improvements. "He's always had the ability to shoot from the perimeter. He's worked on being able to put it on the floor and pull up. At times he can take it right to the basket. When teams have switched on to him, he's been able to punish smaller guys by taking the ball inside because he's worked on his post moves a little bit."

    Then, March. The first 10 games have been 13.9 points, 5.2 rebounds and 45.9 percent.

    Uh-oh is right.

    His scoring numbers (16.9 ppg, 47.4 field-goal percentage) are easily on pace for new career bests and his mark of six rebounds a game is a decent bump from the 5.3 rpg of 2008-09. But if the numbers continue to retreat, if he can't play off Bosh better the final 3 1/2 weeks, if the Raptors make an early postseason exit or don't even make the playoffs, it could become a very ugly summer in Canada.

    The rebounding is what jumps out (or doesn't). Bargnani is a jump shooter, but he's also a 7-footer who gets a lot of inside time on defense. The numbers are a bad display.

    "When he becomes a very, very good rebounder, he's going to be a complete player." Triano said.

    But can he become that good?

    "Absolutely."

    That's being very, very sure about someone who has managed consecutive double-figure games just twice this season.

    "Because we've seen him do it," Triano said. "It's just a matter of being something that becomes consistent. He's played a lot of his career with Chris Bosh, who goes and gets it, and he's become satisfied with the fact that Chris is going to go get it a lot of times or he [Bargnani] is going to lose that battle sometimes.

    "It's something that we have to continually work on him, and he's added pieces to his game so he seems to be a guy that wants to get better so we think that he'll continue to work and that'll become part of his game."

    Which hits the problem with a smack. It's not the rebounding. It's the little matter of working at it.

    Bargnani is asked how he gets beat on the boards.

    "Being lazy maybe," he says. "That's the only reason it can be. I've got the body, I've got everything to take 10 rebounds a game. It's just sometimes I get lazy."


    He needs to fix that, obviously. He needs to play with more focus.

    "Yeah," Bargnani agrees. "More focus. You said it. More focus and don't get lazy."

    The rest of the Raptors season, and maybe longer, depends on it.
    /thread

  11. #3251
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    DunkinDerozan, you're right, his rebounding woes is OVERTATED.

    By the way, if Barg's had 10% of how you defend him as a player, then maybe there would be no need for a thread like this .
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  12. #3252
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    As far as developing Amir He is 23 , I give you that but he has been in the league fo 5 years so he is prety close to his ceiling and is quite develope. The guy at its best is a 3rd player off the bench in a good team.
    I don't know if he's pretty close to his ceiling or not, but what more does he need to develop in order to be a starter on a good team? He can score, rebound and defend. The ONLY thing he needs to really do is cut down on the fouls, which he has this year. I can easily see Amir being the starter on a lot of contenders.
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  13. #3253
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    What you've done is simply looked at rpg, which doesn't take into consideration actual rebounding rate. Why? Probably because looking at rebounding rate hurts your argument. As WhatWhat has already detailed, Bargnani rebounds at a rate that is shockingly bad. The problem is if you simply look at his basic stats, it's not absolutely horrible (close, but not quite). The thing is that Bargnani plays 36 mpg because he plays on a team that has very little talent, overvalues his scoring and doesn't make him accountable for poor defensive play by sitting him, so he ends up playing 35 minutes per game. WHile Bargnani is the 17th highest rebounding center in rpg, none of the centers who played enough minutes to qualify played even 25 minutes per game. When you look at rebounds per 48 minutes, Bargnani is dead last in the league for centers who qualified.

    Basically, Bargnani is an extremely poor rebounder.

    Now, you listed a bunch of excuses. Unfortunately, pretty much all of them have to do with Bargnani being at a disadvantage grabbing offensive rebounds. The only one you listed that does not, is rather confusing, since it really doesn't make sense. Apparently Bargnani expends more energy on the offensive end because he doesn't post up much and must defend the other team's center. I'm not sure how standing out by the three point line takes more energy than posting up. Generally, it doesn't.

    As for the offensive rebounding, let's look at that.

    Bargnani obviously misses out on a lot of offensive rebounds by shooting from outside a lot. Of course, offensive rebounds generally only account for about a quarter of a player's rebounds. Interestingly, Bargnani grabs 1.3 rebounds, which is 23% of his 5.6 rpg. In other words, his offensive rebounding numbers are only slightly below average in relation to his total rebounding numbers. When you take out offensive rebounding, Bargnani is still right near the bottom for big men.

    Either way, WHY Bargnani is a very poor rebounder really doesn't matter. The fact that he actually is a poor rebounder is the problem.
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  14. #3254
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    With the exception of a handful of players there is not much of a seperation margin between the top rebounders and the avereage rebounders. For Example Al Horford who avereage 9.8 rebounds is ranked 8th in the league. Bargnani who pulls down 5.6 a measly 4 rebounds less per game is ranked 54th.
    Dude, 4.2 rebounds is a lot! It translates to 4 possessions which means anywhere from 4-6 points if you assume 50% shooting. That's a lot! Here's a "leaderboard" comparison you might find interesting: Five points separate the 15th and 1st ranked defensive teams in the league right now (talking points per 100 possessions here). If the Raptors were to save these five points from being scored, they'd be an average defensive team instead of second-worst.

    Leave rebounding aside, it isn't even the biggest that bugs me about him, it's his team defense. Try quantifying that, the best measure so far is on/off stats and I don't have the heart to go to 82games.com and show you those.

  15. #3255
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Trust me, there are ton of teams who think they can make him play defense, rebound the ball better while they know that he is very unique for a 7 footer with that foot speed, shooting and passing abilities.
    the only thing unique about this 7 footer is he cant grab a rebound !

  16. #3256
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    That sentence my friend, proves my point all along that your hate makes you unqualify to analyz Raptors.

    The fact that you are willing to give a pass to BC for all his mistakes and... all well documented over the years in RR, his rlationship with AB and the whole Sam Saga and ... proves my point that logic has no place in your judgment right now when it comes to AB.
    When the hell have I ever given a pass to Colangelo? Just because I don't want the guy fired doesn't mean I give him a pass. I've criticized his moves plenty of times, but, overall, I think he's done a half decent enough job that I'm willing to see what he does with the current situation. My demanding him trading Bargnani is obviously aimed at him. And if Bargnani isn't traded within a year, well, I don't know what I will do.

    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    The fact that you gave a pass to Jay and all his shortcommings in Player management and ... All his bad play calling and ... Just proves my point further.
    I've been very critical of Triano lately. Where the hell have you been?

    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Thank you for your above post because I could have not done a better job myself proving that you are Bias.
    Because I make a player accountable for himself? Yes, I am biased in that regard. Quite frankly, why aren't you? Why do you not feel a person should be held accountable for his own actions. You seem to want to blame everyone else EXCEPT Bargnani for his shortcomings.

    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    And the icing on the cake is that you THINK One player is the ENGINE of the Whole team That my friend is just GOLD, I tell you, GOLD

    Anyway, I proved my point and I think I wasted enough time disscussing this with you.

    There are delusional people that think we have not landed on the moon.
    There are delusional people that think Elvis is still alive.
    There are delusionla people who think 911 was an insider job and ...

    It does not matter what you tell them, they will insist on their idea and I think it is the same with you when you come and say:

    AB is the Engine for Toronto Raptors .....

    Best of Luck Pal , but I promiss you that AB is not going any where till BC is in Charge here.
    I don't know exactly what point you have proven, except that you don't like people picking on Bargnani. My point is that Bargnani's game is so fatally flawed that it hurts the development of the team and limits what it can do in the future. He needs shots to be effective, but he's most effective when taking a lot of shots. Unfortunately, he's not effective when playing a lot of minutes because he's such a liability on defense and on the boards.

    The fact that nothing you say seems to actually debate the facts, but simply tries to distract from the real argument, shows me that you actually DON"T have a real argument.

    I agree that Colangelo has not done a great job. Exhibit #1, he hasn't traded Bargnani.

    I agree Triano hasn't done a great job. Exhibit #1, he allows Bargnani to play heavy minutes despite showing little effort outside of shooting.

    I agree Colangelo and Triano are at fault for allowing an atmosphere that condones sub-par defensive effort.

    I've never disagreed with those points.

    Unfortunately not one of those points changes the fact that Bargnani is a poor defensive player and bad rebounder and does not hold himself accountable for that. I don't want players on my team that don't hold themselves accountable for such basic things. Why do you?
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  17. #3257
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post

    As far as developing Amir He is 23 , I give you that but he has been in the league fo 5 years so he is prety close to his ceiling and is quite develope. The guy at its best is a 3rd player off the bench in a good team.
    Amiar is as good as he's gonna get, but if Horace Grant can start on multiple championship teams, Amir can definitely start at PF on a good team.

  18. #3258
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Amiar is as good as he's gonna get, but if Horace Grant can start on multiple championship teams, Amir can definitely start at PF on a good team.
    Plus AC Green, plus Otis Thorpe, plus Udonis Haslem, plus Samaki Walker....

    Big men need to defend and rebound, and not be a liability on the offensive end. Amir is a good rebounder and defender and is an incredibly efficient offensive player. Amir might, right now, start for Orlando, Miami, Oklahoma, Denver, and possibly even San Antonio if he were put on those teams. All 50+ win teams this season.

    Amir is not a great player, to say the least, but he's one of the few legit players on the Raptors roster right now who actually consistently has a positive impact on the team. The fact that certain people want to criticize him (mostly in retaliation for criticizing of Bargnani, it seems) is rather dumbfounding.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The D-day (decision day) is coming for Bargnani, no doubt. BC has admitted many mistakes in the past. If the days comes when he feels Bargnani is not part of the future or he can't win with him, Bargnani is gone. It would seem to me that given his salary he is not a number one option in BC's eyes. Unfortunately for Bargnani he is the number 1 option this year and he is taking a lot of slack because of it. Here is to hoping Bargnani gets a star to ride the coat tails of next year.
    i have seen almost every BC interview, and not once has he admitted anything.

    you're saying many times bc has admitted mistakes, can you provide a link or even just the date of any of them ?

    even for turk, bc said turk was out of shape and it was turk's fault it didnt work out in t.o.

    for bosh, bc said bosh checked out, which puts the blame on bosh.

    name one time, bc has admitted anything... it's always someone else's fault.

  20. #3260
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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    i have seen almost every BC interview, and not once has he admitted anything.

    you're saying many times bc has admitted mistakes, can you provide a link or even just the date of any of them ?

    even for turk, bc said turk was out of shape and it was turk's fault it didnt work out in t.o.

    for bosh, bc said bosh checked out, which puts the blame on bosh.

    name one time, bc has admitted anything... it's always someone else's fault.
    I don't have the time or desire to find any links, but I recall several times when Colangelo admitted making mistakes. Much more important, though, is that he generally realizes he has made a mistake and does what he can to correct it.
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