View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3841
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    Quote biggie10 wrote: View Post
    Bargnani sucks, who cares about him. He doesn't play defense, he's slow, he's a volume shooter.. which makes it look like hes actually putting up big points. He averages more field goal attempts than wade, lebron, pierce, allen, melo.. yet he shoots a worse field goal percentage than all of them. You take anyone in the NBA and give them 19 field goal attempts and i guarantee you they can average more than 21 ppg, its embarrassing to have someone like him rewarded with the ball and minutes all because he is BC's golden boy. To conclude.. defense wins championships, I'd rather take someone who can grab me rebounds and play defense on a consistent basis then someone who is a CHUCKER!!
    So who do you think should be taking the shots on this team? All those players you listed have at least one other big time scorer on their team. Dude Andrea is the best at creating shots on this team. It's a sad reality. We can say he hangs out by the 3 line too much but that also opens up the lane for guards to penetrate. And when he is on he often commands the double team.

    I'm not saying Bargs in the answer for this team but blaming him for the Raps sucking and saying the offense is better without him is IMO straight stupid. This team sucks, but if you need a scapegoat I guess you should use him.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

  2. #3842
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    You can't tell because they have never played a significant stretch without him, but I'm pretty sure if you lose your best offensive player for the season, it hurts (i.e. Chris Bosh).

  3. #3843
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    The Raptors are 1-8, granted couple of the team we faced without him are top level teams but still...

  4. #3844
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Andrea used to be my favorite player on the Raptors and I had high hopes for him at the beginning of the season. He used to be an exciting player to watch but now after five years even on offense his game has gotten stale. He misses too many open jumpers which I find very disappointing for someone jacking up so many shots. His inside game is also inconsistent and hasn't progressed since the beginning of the year.
    If he wasn't in the lineup the Raptors would have whoever they received in the trade plus a chance for everyone else to take some of those shots Bargs is taking now. I think the team would be better without him and he could go on to become an allstar somewhere else.
    Damn you must have not watched many games this year. Because if you just reverse your statments basically he's the opposite of everything you've just described

  5. #3845
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    The Raptors are 1-8, granted couple of the team we faced without him are top level teams but still...
    lol they actually managed to win a game without him.. wow im impressed

  6. #3846
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    I thought it wasn't a Bargs problem so much as a team-wide shooting problem. Utah was playing a zone basically the whole fourth quarter. Which is natural when your only bigs are Davis, Evans and Dorsey. There was no penetration at all. Didn't matter how hard DD tried, he kept getting stuck. Any big who can space the floor – Amir, Bargs, Kleiza? (sorry) – would've made things easier.

  7. #3847
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    Raptors win percentage is almost 3X higher when Bargnani is in the line-up as compared to when he's out of the line-up.

  8. #3848
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    We have problems on offense regardless of if White Swan's playing or not.

  9. #3849
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    Quote RaptorTalk wrote: View Post
    Raptors win percentage is almost 3X higher when Bargnani is in the line-up as compared to when he's out of the line-up.
    uh.. if you haven't realized.. they played the Heat, Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, Mavs, Rockets and Bucks when Bargnani was out, even with Bargnani they aren't beating any of these teams

  10. #3850
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Damn you must have not watched many games this year. Because if you just reverse your statments basically he's the opposite of everything you've just described
    Andrea was my least liked player on the Raptors and I had no hope for him at the beginning of the season. He was boring to watch but now after five years his game has gotten exciting.He hits most of his jumpers and his inside game his improved since the beginning of the year. I think the team would be worse without him and he will become an all star with the Raptors.

    Is that more truthful?

  11. #3851
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Good question

    Do Raptors have a problem on offense without Bargnani?

    At this point (or stage of the team), Bargnani’s absence creates a myriad of issues on the Offensive side. Demar gets more focus, which might give reason for his 4 – 16 night. Without AB, Davis becomes 2nd or 3rd option, and that's a new world for him. He started off well, but slipped as the game progressed. He`s a dynamic rookie with lots of upside, so flat spots are part of the process.

    Amir had to bail after 8 minutes, and that was unfortunate. It`s ironic – with all this talk about Defense – that Raptors kicked it up in the 3rd Quarter. Only 18 points for the Jazz. Even Dorsey had an impact in that quarter.
    .

    Stat-wise, it was the Bench that redeemed the team, when normally they don’t - a big reason for the close game. While Toronto’s Bench advanced an extra 10 points, that was not the case with Utah.

    Normally Raptors allow 35 points by their opponents Bench, yet Utah`s Secondary had only 9 points – a pretty good indication of what Bench won the battle. Although, in some respects this year has been so messed up, it’s hard to tell who’s coming or going (Bencher >> Starter >> Bencher >> D-League >> Starter ...)
    .

    As for the Starters, Toronto gave up 17 more points than they normally do, and contributed 13 less - a 30 point swing. Coincidentally, that's the difference in points (relative to the past 10 games) that have been provided by Bargnani & Demars' "shortage" for this game.

    Demar suffered being alone, and somewhere so did a white looking Italian.

    That in a nutshell is why Raptors have a problem on offense without Bargnani.
    .

  12. #3852
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Do Raptors have a problem on offense without Bargnani?

    At this point (or stage of the team), Bargnani’s absence creates a myriad of issues on the Offensive side. Demar gets more focus, which might give reason for his 4 – 16 night. Without AB, Davis becomes 2nd or 3rd option, and that's a new world for him. He started off well, but slipped as the game progressed. He`s a dynamic rookie with lots of upside, so flat spots are part of the process.

    Amir had to bail after 8 minutes, and that was unfortunate. It`s ironic – with all this talk about Defense – that Raptors kicked it up in the 3rd Quarter. Only 18 points for the Jazz. Even Dorsey had an impact in that quarter.
    .

    Stat-wise, it was the Bench that redeemed the team, when normally they don’t - a big reason for the close game. While Toronto’s Bench advanced an extra 10 points, that was not the case with Utah.

    Normally Raptors allow 35 points by their opponents Bench, yet Utah`s Secondary had only 9 points – a pretty good indication of what Bench won the battle. Although, in some respects this year has been so messed up, it’s hard to tell who’s coming or going (Bencher >> Starter >> Bencher >> D-League >> Starter ...)
    .

    As for the Starters, Toronto gave up 17 more points than they normally do, and contributed 13 less - a 30 point swing. Coincidentally, that's the difference in points (relative to the past 10 games) that have been provided by Bargnani & Demars' "shortage" for this game.

    Demar suffered being alone, and somewhere so did a white looking Italian.

    That in a nutshell is why Raptors have a problem on offense without Bargnani.
    .
    Thank you for that. Now, my turn. Let's start with Demar and this game alone. Yes, I agree that once the game starts, the defensive focus shifts from Bargnani to Demar. Let's not forget that Raja Bell is also one of the premiere defenders in his position. I'm not making excuses but it's a factor. Sliding Davis as the second option is also new to him (especially when Amir goes down). Our bench outscoring their bench is a moot point as both teams really had missing critical pieces due to injury.

    Now for my argument. Bargs has only been away a handful of times. In a team where the focal point is Bargs (he gets to chuck em' 20-25 time a game), it's very difficult for a team to adjust when a high volume shooter like him is not playing. Most offensive plays are called for him and other players are thrusted into offensive roles they're not familiar with when he's gone. When Bosh went down, the team as a whole had problems scoring as well.

    The only way to really assess this problem is if Bargs is away for several weeks due to injury. How the team runs their offensive sets hinges on players being more familiar with their role. Losing a player for a game or two and then wholeheartedly determining that there will be problems is not enough especially when offense is concerned. If we had a really defensive player and he's lost for a brief time, one can argue that the impact would be more apparent. However, offense is practised and executed during games. When you lose an offensive player, it takes a while before a team adjusts, especially for a young team such as the Raps.

    PS> One can also argue that defense is also practised and executed during games. However, if a player like Howard, Bogut, Wallace goes down for a period, there's no one in the roster that can step in on a game per game basis and assume their dominant role on the defensive side of things (even if they practice different sets of defensive schemes). If Bargs goes down, someone else can pick up the offensive slack (and his guard-like rebounding numbers - not very difficult to replace). It just takes time (through practice with a different set of offensive pecking order).

    I also don't mind bringing up the fact that Bargs can score, but the players defending him (most NBA centers) are not used to defending players that can stick it from 20 feet and beyond. Even Bargs can put up numbers against Howard simply because most centers are usually low post defenders. Most will not be comfortable defending away from the basket. Guys like Demar and other wing players would have a tougher time scoring simply because their respective defenders (other 2's or 3's) are EXPECTED to defend them anywhere on the court.

    FINAL POINT: I attribute their offensive woes to the lack of ball movement and the need for a point guard that can create his own shot is becoming more apparent as the season winds down. Jose's shot is well for the lack of a better word, shot. Bayless on the other hand is well, playing with "me, myself and I".
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Fri Mar 11th, 2011 at 04:09 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  13. #3853
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Thank you for that. Now, my turn. Let's start with Demar and this game alone. Yes, I agree that once the game starts, the defensive focus shifts from Bargnani to Demar. Let's not forget that Raja Bell is also one of the premiere defenders in his position. I'm not making excuses but it's a factor. Sliding Davis as the second option is also new to him (especially when Amir goes down). Our bench outscoring their bench is a moot point as both teams really had missing critical pieces due to injury.

    Now for my argument. Bargs has only been away a handful of times. In a team where the focal point is Bargs (he gets to chuck em' 20-25 time a game), it's very difficult for a team to adjust when a high volume shooter like him is not playing. Most offensive plays are called for him and other players are thrusted into offensive roles they're not familiar with when he's gone. When Bosh went down, the team as a whole had problems scoring as well.

    The only way to really assess this problem is if Bargs is away for several weeks due to injury. How the team runs their offensive sets hinges on players being more familiar with their role. Losing a player for a game or two and then wholeheartedly determining that there will be problems is not enough especially when offense is concerned. If we had a really defensive player and he's lost for a brief time, one can argue that the impact would be more apparent. However, offense is practised and executed during games. When you lose an offensive player, it takes a while before a team adjusts, especially for a young team such as the Raps.

    PS> One can also argue the defense is also practised and executed during games. However, if a player like Howard, Bogut, Wallace goes down for a period, there's no one in the roster that can step in on a game per game basis and assume their dominant role on the defensive side of things (even if they practice different sets of defensive schemes). If Bargs goes down, someone else can pick up the offensive slack (and his guard-like rebounding numbers - not very difficult to replace). It just takes time (through practice with a different set of offensive pecking order).

    I also don't mind bringing up the fact that Bargs can score, but the players defending him (most NBA centers) are not used to defending players that can stick it from 20 feet and beyond. Even Bargs can put up numbers against Howard simply because most centers are usually low post defenders. Most will not be comfortable defending away from the basket. Guys like Demar and other wing players would have a tougher time scoring simply because their respective defenders (other 2's or 3's) are EXPECTED to defend them anywhere on the court.

    FINAL POINT: I attribute their offensive woes to the lack of ball movement and the need for a point guard that can create his own shot is becoming more apparent as the season winds down. Jose's shot is well for the lack of a better word, shot. Bayless on the other hand is well, playing with "me, myself and I".
    If you are going to write that much garbage can you at least be truthful?
    he does not shoot 20-25 a night. on the season he avg 18.4 attempts and hits 45.3% of them. In comparison, Kobe on the season is putting up 19.7 and is shooting 45.8%. Please also keep in mind that Kobe has Pau to help him out!!!

    I'm not making excuses for anyone, but please be truthful. The raps are not better offensively without andrea.

  14. #3854
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    you can like him or not, it's fair but please, don't mess with stats man... it's nba, there's a stat even for number of times you go to the toilet...
    just check it, before talking!

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...xp=-1&splitDD=

  15. #3855
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    reply to post n°13

  16. #3856
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    Andrea Bargnani 26.3 PT | .508 of 19.5 FG | .823 of 6.2 FT | .424 of 3.3 3P | 5.6/0.4 RB 2.0 AS | 0.1 BL | 0.5 ST | 2.2 TO | 2.8 PF | 39.5 MN | 10/10 GS | (last 10 games)

  17. #3857
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    Quote Scarsville wrote: View Post
    The raps are not better offensively without andrea.
    I didn't say there were better without him on offense. I just merely pointed out that his worth on offense is overvalued. The crux of my argument lies in the fact that AB's absence or the lack thereof is simply too small a sample size to determine whether it has a negative impact on offense.

    Garbage? I was off by 1.6 % in my FGA estimation. Please forgive me my liege.

    PS> Now that you compared him to Kobe, I take back everything I wrote.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Fri Mar 11th, 2011 at 04:07 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  18. #3858
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    Andrea Bargnani 17 PT, 6-12 FG, 4-6 FT, 1-2 3P, 4/2 RB, 1 AS, 0 BL, 0 ST, 2 TO, 0 PF, 38 MN

    Bargs is getting healthy.

  19. #3859
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    I'm just randomly going to go out on a limb here.....

    ANDREA BARGNANI WILL AVERAGE 7-8 REBOUNDS A GAME NEXT YEAR

    There I said it.

    It just dawned on me. At the end of the day he is solidly built centre and faster than most of his counterparts. There is no way...physically and literally NO WAY, he should not get near the average number of rebounds for a guy playing his position (ie. standing near the rim the whole game).

    Theres a million different theories for why he is such a poor rebounder - but there's only one commonality: there is no GOOD REASON why it should continue. Thus, common sense will prevail and whatever the reason actually is, will resolve itself.

    Now if you've read closely you'll see I never said he would actually become a better defensive player. I dont know what +1.5 rebounds does for you interms of his actual value to a bball team.

    But I am just saying on a purely NUMERICAL BASIS, you will see a number x; where x >= 7.0 under rebounding next to Bargs name on the stat sheet next year (unlike the current number thats there which makes you think you're looking in the wrong stat column or something)

    That is all. (I feel better)

  20. #3860
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    Quote Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    I'm just randomly going to go out on a limb here.....

    ANDREA BARGNANI WILL AVERAGE 7-8 REBOUNDS A GAME NEXT YEAR

    There I said it.

    It just dawned on me. At the end of the day he is solidly built centre and faster than most of his counterparts. There is no way...physically and literally NO WAY, he should not get near the average number of rebounds for a guy playing his position (ie. standing near the rim the whole game).

    Theres a million different theories for why he is such a poor rebounder - but there's only one commonality: there is no GOOD REASON why it should continue. Thus, common sense will prevail and whatever the reason actually is, will resolve itself.

    Now if you've read closely you'll see I never said he would actually become a better defensive player. I dont know what +1.5 rebounds does for you interms of his actual value to a bball team.

    But I am just saying on a purely NUMERICAL BASIS, you will see a number x; where x >= 7.0 under rebounding next to Bargs name on the stat sheet next year (unlike the current number thats there which makes you think you're looking in the wrong stat column or something)

    That is all. (I feel better)
    Unfortunatley that exact same thing was said at the begining of the season. "bargnani will get 7-8 rebounds" im sorry but its less likely every season now. i tihnk that ship has sailed...

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