View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3961
    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    No one is discounting Bargnani's offense, but when you're as bad on the defensive end as Bargnani, it's a team killer. No way to get around it. If he's one of the worst defensively and one of the best offensively, then doesn't that make him an average player? What is the point of bashing our heads against the wall trying to figure out how to keep a guy who is basically an average player? I simply don't get it.
    This is it. It makes him an average player. So, easily replaceable. Well put, Tim.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

  2. #3962
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    No one is discounting Bargnani's offense, but when you're as bad on the defensive end as Bargnani, it's a team killer. No way to get around it. If he's one of the worst defensively and one of the best offensively, then doesn't that make him an average player? What is the point of bashing our heads against the wall trying to figure out how to keep a guy who is basically an average player? I simply don't get it.
    Thats one of the best ways I've seen it stated.

    I really want to know what BC thinks of this guy. What do the upper brass conider his future to be in their closed door meetings? As I posted earlier I think we're going to get some answers to this soon.

    Exit Interviews
    Draft
    Next training camp

    Three things that will tell us (in their own way) if they consider Bargs to be their centre of the future.

  3. #3963
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    No one is discounting Bargnani's offense, but when you're as bad on the defensive end as Bargnani, it's a team killer. No way to get around it. If he's one of the worst defensively and one of the best offensively, then doesn't that make him an average player? What is the point of bashing our heads against the wall trying to figure out how to keep a guy who is basically an average player? I simply don't get it.
    Average or below average is what the on-court/off court numbers say about Bargnani, but, like I said, they can't really tell you how good a player is. DeRozan looks a lot worse by the same numbers, and I'm not too worried.

    But, yeah, doesn't the evidence say that Bargs is fairly average overall? He's obviously no all-star yet. He's paid like an average centre, and that's what he seems to be in terms of his overall impact. His GAME is unusual. The only stat I've seen that really suggests Bargs is something special right now is Wayne Winston's adjusted +/-. That's encouraging, but it's hardly decisive. But hey, there's nothin wrong with having a solid starter at a reasonable price.

    But what do you mean bashing our heads against the wall trying to keep him? He's under contract for 5 years. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

  4. #3964
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    Also, average starters AREN'T easily replaceable. Average bench players, yes. Average starters, no. Otherwise why are we starting James Johnson?

  5. #3965
    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    Also, average starters AREN'T easily replaceable. Average bench players, yes. Average starters, no. Otherwise why are we starting James Johnson?
    Because we have some ... holes. He fits for now. And is a fine complementary player. Why the JJ hate?
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

  6. #3966
    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    The fact that this thread is this long, and it keeps being added to shows one thing.


    This debate over Bargnani is as unsolvable as a debate over the existence of God between a devout theist and an atheist, and is equally problematic. Whether or not Bargnani sucks doesn't change the fact that this ORGANIZATION does not play defense, does not have a good coaching system. We have a lot of work to do if we wanna start playing well enough to win games against the likes of Detroit and PHX on their 2nd of a back to back.

  7. #3967
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    Average or below average is what the on-court/off court numbers say about Bargnani, but, like I said, they can't really tell you how good a player is. DeRozan looks a lot worse by the same numbers, and I'm not too worried.

    But, yeah, doesn't the evidence say that Bargs is fairly average overall? He's obviously no all-star yet. He's paid like an average centre, and that's what he seems to be in terms of his overall impact. His GAME is unusual. The only stat I've seen that really suggests Bargs is something special right now is Wayne Winston's adjusted +/-. That's encouraging, but it's hardly decisive. But hey, there's nothin wrong with having a solid starter at a reasonable price.

    But what do you mean bashing our heads against the wall trying to keep him? He's under contract for 5 years. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    Also, average starters AREN'T easily replaceable. Average bench players, yes. Average starters, no. Otherwise why are we starting James Johnson?
    First of all, I never said he was an average starter. I said an average player. Quite frankly, I see him as a borderline starter because on a good team, he'd be a bench player. His defensive deficiencies are simply too much of a liability for him to be playing big minutes.

    Of course, I'd put DeRozan as a borderline starter, as well, because at this point the only thing he does above average is score. Decent starters have to bring more than one thing to the table, and neither Bargnani nor DeRozan do that. The difference, though, is that DeRozan is only in his 2nd year, and I've been impressed by his development. I've said it many times, but if DeRozan is still a below average defender in year 4, I'll be calling for his trade, as well.

    Yes, Bargnani is a unique talent, but unique doesn't automatically mean good. Bargnani is a 7 footer who plays like a small forward. A poor defending small forward.

    Barbosa is a unique talent, as well. He's 6'2 foot but plays like a SG. He really has no PG skills but is too short to play SG. So his role is, and always has been, a backup. He's averaged 25 mpg throughout his career and only went above 30 mpg once. While he's certainly not a good defender, he's not on the level of Bargnani. Not by a long shot. And if you look at their numbers, they're EXTREMELY similar. Obviously Bargnani plays a lot more minutes, but Barbosa scores at only a slightly lower rate, gets to the line at a similar rate (per field goal attempt), shoots a similar percentage from the field, from the three point line and from the line. He rebounds less but gets more assists. Even their advanced numbers are similar. They both have a 104 offensive rating and a 114 defensive rating.

    Barbosa is a nice player, but he's certainly not someone who is good enough that you want to acquire players who can compliment him.

    As for banging our head against a wall, it's not how to keep him, but why. People say that if the Raptors had this type of player or that type of player then it would offset Bargnani's weaknesses. My question is, if he's simply an average player overall, then what exactly is the point of going to such great lengths in order to build a team where he won't be as much of a liability as he is right now?

    By the way, Wayne Winston's adjusted +/- numbers are the ONLY advanced numbers that show Bargnani as anything more than an average player. Every other advanced stat seems to show him as, at best, an average player (not starter). And when those same numbers tell you that Jason Terry and Kyle Lowry are better than Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili, Anthony Parker and Russell Westbrook, you know something is wrong with them. What does it say about a person when they ignore overwhelming evidence that points to one thing and focuses on the one piece of evidence that points to something else, especially when that person WANTS to believe the latter?
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  8. #3968
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    First of all, I never said he was an average starter. I said an average player. Quite frankly, I see him as a borderline starter because on a good team, he'd be a bench player. His defensive deficiencies are simply too much of a liability for him to be playing big minutes.

    Of course, I'd put DeRozan as a borderline starter, as well, because at this point the only thing he does above average is score. Decent starters have to bring more than one thing to the table, and neither Bargnani nor DeRozan do that. The difference, though, is that DeRozan is only in his 2nd year, and I've been impressed by his development. I've said it many times, but if DeRozan is still a below average defender in year 4, I'll be calling for his trade, as well.

    Yes, Bargnani is a unique talent, but unique doesn't automatically mean good. Bargnani is a 7 footer who plays like a small forward. A poor defending small forward.

    Barbosa is a unique talent, as well. He's 6'2 foot but plays like a SG. He really has no PG skills but is too short to play SG. So his role is, and always has been, a backup. He's averaged 25 mpg throughout his career and only went above 30 mpg once. While he's certainly not a good defender, he's not on the level of Bargnani. Not by a long shot. And if you look at their numbers, they're EXTREMELY similar. Obviously Bargnani plays a lot more minutes, but Barbosa scores at only a slightly lower rate, gets to the line at a similar rate (per field goal attempt), shoots a similar percentage from the field, from the three point line and from the line. He rebounds less but gets more assists. Even their advanced numbers are similar. They both have a 104 offensive rating and a 114 defensive rating.

    Barbosa is a nice player, but he's certainly not someone who is good enough that you want to acquire players who can compliment him.

    As for banging our head against a wall, it's not how to keep him, but why. People say that if the Raptors had this type of player or that type of player then it would offset Bargnani's weaknesses. My question is, if he's simply an average player overall, then what exactly is the point of going to such great lengths in order to build a team where he won't be as much of a liability as he is right now?

    By the way, Wayne Winston's adjusted +/- numbers are the ONLY advanced numbers that show Bargnani as anything more than an average player. Every other advanced stat seems to show him as, at best, an average player (not starter). And when those same numbers tell you that Jason Terry and Kyle Lowry are better than Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili, Anthony Parker and Russell Westbrook, you know something is wrong with them. What does it say about a person when they ignore overwhelming evidence that points to one thing and focuses on the one piece of evidence that points to something else, especially when that person WANTS to believe the latter?
    Wayne Winston is an accomplished mathmeticiain, statistician, and sports analysis guru. More credentials then you have in this field Tim. I don't think it's fair for you to say "every other stat says something different than Winston".

    I saw your comments on the Wayne Winston sight where you were criticizing his analysis. I wonder if he ever got back to you?

  9. #3969
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    It seems to me like you're mostly just repeating what I said, but acting as if you're disagreeing with me. The only point of disagreement I see is whether Bargnani is a solid starter or a borderline starter. I tend to think that if you gave Bargs to most teams, he would start: the exception being those teams which have two all-stars up-front already. I also think he might look like a better defender on a different team, as we've seen with lots of other guys.

  10. #3970
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    It seems to me like you're mostly just repeating what I said, but acting as if you're disagreeing with me. The only point of disagreement I see is whether Bargnani is a solid starter or a borderline starter. I tend to think that if you gave Bargs to most teams, he would start: the exception being those teams which have two all-stars up-front already. I also think he might look like a better defender on a different team, as we've seen with lots of other guys.
    If you think I just repeated what you said, you wouldn't say that Bargnani would start on most teams. Bargnani would probably start on a lot of bad teams, but good teams don't tend to start one dimensional players. For all of Bargnani's talents, the only thing he does above average is score. Good teams don't need scoring enough to start a player who's as much of a liability as Bargnani is. This is what his fans don't seem to get. While his scoring ability is valuable to a team that desperately needs scoring, good teams have plenty of quality players that are able to score, hence why they are a good team.
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  11. #3971
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    Bargnani: 0 rebounds in 27 minutes

    ZERO rebounds for the biggest guy on the team who is standing beside the damn rim.....so basically he is trying NOT to grab a rebound.

    I'd like our intrepid media (ie. Doug "yes man" Smith) to question this..."hey coach, why does your starting centre regularly go through games grabbing 0, 1, 2 defensive rebounds? do you guys actually think it is somehow more efficient for him to only box out and the SG/SF come in for the board (unlike every other team in the league)? Or is this something that you do not condone and in that case why do you keep starting a centre who refuses to grab defensive boards?"

  12. #3972
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    No one on this team rebounded (other then Ed and Ajinca). It's unfair to blame it all on Bargs but I do agree he should of at least got a couple.

    Raptors leaders in rebounds: Ed Davis 11, Alexis Ajinca 8, James Johnson 5, Sonny Weems 4, Leandro Barbosa 3, Jerryd Bayless 2

  13. #3973
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    Default Just a couple..

    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    No one on this team rebounded (other then Ed and Ajinca). It's unfair to blame it all on Bargs but I do agree he should of at least got a couple.

    Raptors leaders in rebounds: Ed Davis 11, Alexis Ajinca 8, James Johnson 5, Sonny Weems 4, Leandro Barbosa 3, Jerryd Bayless 2
    I agree, I think he should just get a couple.... of bananas. I bet you he ate MORE bananas at halftime and drank a couple of bottles of gatorade than actual rebounds. He also stared at a couple in the stands enjoying their first date throughout the game, expecially in the 4th quarter. You're right, a couple.
    The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority. - Martin Luther King

  14. #3974
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If you think I just repeated what you said, you wouldn't say that Bargnani would start on most teams. Bargnani would probably start on a lot of bad teams, but good teams don't tend to start one dimensional players. For all of Bargnani's talents, the only thing he does above average is score. Good teams don't need scoring enough to start a player who's as much of a liability as Bargnani is. This is what his fans don't seem to get. While his scoring ability is valuable to a team that desperately needs scoring, good teams have plenty of quality players that are able to score, hence why they are a good team.
    Tim, perhaps I've stated this before but I think even his scoring is over-valued and over-rated. He forces centers to come out of the paint to guard him (most coaches and players do not like that). Even if they come out, it's not like they're used to guarding someone on the perimeter. Often you have smaller players switching to guard him. He just exploits them with his height advantage (although it didn't work last night against Golden State because apparently, he's not as fast as he thinks). I think that the elite scorers in this league can score on any player (big or small, and fast). AB scores a lot against the likes of Orlando and Oklahoma (with Perkins) for the reasons I stated above - he creates match-up problems because he's doing one RARE thing for all centers in the league. Ultimately, his man - other centers, are simply not equipped to guard perimeter players like Andrea (and sadly often falls for his pathetic pump-fakes that couldn't fool my 7 year-old).

    My final point is that it is truly DANGEROUS to fall in love with a player that has a unique skill set such as Bargs simply because it is so rare and incredibly one-dimensional. What happens when his knees starts to bother him (I know, he's 25 and eats a lot of bananas and pasta)? Then what? Two-way players or having a semblance of an almost complete player is ideal in any sport. Bargs is 100% offense and when his body prevents him from being his usual self as he ages, then what? Your old Treviso trainer (Cuzzolin) can only do so much.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Sat Mar 26th, 2011 at 09:41 AM.
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  15. #3975
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    No one on this team rebounded (other then Ed and Ajinca). It's unfair to blame it all on Bargs but I do agree he should of at least got a couple.

    Raptors leaders in rebounds: Ed Davis 11, Alexis Ajinca 8, James Johnson 5, Sonny Weems 4, Leandro Barbosa 3, Jerryd Bayless 2
    This post has two simple sentences which highlight the insanity:

    No one on this team rebounded (other then Ed and Ajinca)

    Yeah so basically the two other guys who are rotating in Bargs position. Ajinca is no special player, like his biggest flaw is that he is "weak in the paint, etc", but how come he has 8 rebounds?

    It's unfair to blame it all on Bargs but I do agree he should of at least got a couple.

    Thats exactly what Im saying, how come does not even have a "couple"?

    Basically when the ball goes up off the rim, Bargs goes to a man instead of to the ball.

    This is evidenced by the fact that if you rotate any scrub off the bench and play him at centre for a few minutes he'll have more rebounds than Bargs.

    I want to know when the coaching staff decided to accept this? (ie. they're not blind...so why is this sytem in place?)

    And the media wont even ask about this.

  16. #3976
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    Default Bargnani-haters REJOICE!

    "Whether it's D'Antoni or Triano, the Raptors want to build around rookie big-man Ed Davis and second-year guard DeMar DeRozan. They're said to be open to moving Andrea Bargnani, who has been anything but an impact player since entering the league in 2007 as the No. 1 overall pick." New York Daily News
    This is from HoopsHype.com. However when you click the link, it shows up Page Not Found.

    OH, CANADA!
    Despite Toronto losing Chris Bosh and making little progress this season, team president Bryan Colangelo is returning to run the team, according the several league sources. That could be good news for D'Antoni, whose offense has been a bad fit for Anthony.

    D'Antoni, who worked under Colangelo in Phoenix, might be out of a job if Walsh leaves the Knicks at season's end. For now, the Raptors plan to bring back coach Jay Triano, despite their awful season. But if D'Antoni becomes available, Triano could be jettisoned. Whether it's D'Antoni or Triano, the Raptors want to build around rookie big-man Ed Davis and second-year guard DeMar DeRozan. They're said to be open to moving Andrea Bargnani, who has been anything but an impact player since entering the league in 2007 as the No. 1 overall pick. ...



    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz1HnyAIPOi
    Link found.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Mar 27th, 2011 at 09:09 AM. Reason: link found

  17. #3977
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    Good news about bargnani but I don't like hearing triano maybe back.

  18. #3978
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    This is very good news if the source is correct, I would love to see this team build around Davis,Derozen and this years draft pick. If BC does live up to his mistake and trade Bargs, he could be at his peak value in the summer BC should make the move to grab a player who will compliment Derozen and Davis equally along with this years draft pick.

    As for D'Antoni to be honest I would not be to happy with it. He runs a simimular offence as JT with a little better defence, but honestly they both have the same school of thought. I would like to see a new brand of basketball in Toronto, a brand that plays defence aswell as offence.

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    I would rather it said BUILD WITH, not around Ed and DeMAr.

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    So in essence it's like saying: "Get ready Canada! In the next few years you will be seeing...well...more of the same."

    What would be the difference with D'Antoni and Triano? They both only really care about offense. Good news on the Bargnani one though. AT LEAST they are finally considering it. As for Ed and DeMar...I don't really think they are the "building around" type of guys. They are more complementary pieces than anything, and right now they aren't even legit starters (yet).

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