Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[noxleno]

20-10, a block or two, and average D every game and I'd be f***ing thrilled.

[The Rawth]

I have absolutely no problem with people liking Bargnani. Go ahead and do so. I like lots of things that other people don't like. Hell, I'm a basketball fan who doesn't like hockey and I live in Canada. But I don't go on and on about how great basketball is, in comparison to hockey.

As for Bargnani being a great player, he's not. Plain and simple. If you can find a respected basketball person who says that Bargnani is a great NBA player, I'll cease criticizing him. If he was great., he would have made the All-Star team. If he was great, he'd do more than just score. If he was great, the Raptors record would be a lot better than it actually is. If he were great, the vast majority of fans would not become so frustrated with him. If he were a great player, the vast majority of advanced statistics would not paint him as anything but an average player, at best.

Bargnani is a very good offensive player. I'd even let you say he's a great one- I don't agree, but I'd give you that one. But basketball is more than just scoring. Especially for a big man. Bargnani is undeniably a poor defensive player and rebounder. No matter if you are a fan or not, you can't argue that he is anything but that.

Great players are great at more than just one thing. Especially if they are so poor in others.

i understand the angst but some high expectations arent they?
if Bargs was able to carry the raptors the way you say he should, that would be magnificent on his behalf, even Chris bosh couldnt carry them to above 45 games and he is said to be 10x the player bargs is,

Also Bosh had Bargs on his team, bargs has barely any other currently decent players to back him up at the moment, hes not a amazing player so to expect him to be all you say is pretty unfair, especialy because Derozan is our next best prospect behind him and all he does is score. Bosh was never really thrust into the number one option with a team FULL of rookies and young players like Bargs is, so if Andrea is supposed to magically make this team of prospects playoff contenders, thats pretty raw.

[Tim W.]

20-10, a block or two, and average D every game and I'd be f***ing thrilled.

I do find it fitting that his fans will ask what kind of stats he has to put up for "us haters" to stop criticizing. It's not stats I'm looking for. For the most part, it's the things that don't show up on the box score. Things like, you know, consistent defense. It also attempts to deny the fact that we actually have good reason to criticize him. I don't do it because I don't like the guy. I do it because of massive holes in his game. At what point are people going to start figuring that out and stop complaining that I "won't be happy no matter what kind of stats he puts up".

He's a Raptors, for Christ sake! I'd love to be a fan of his. But I'm not going to shut my brain off and pretend he's not a complete liability on defense and a horrible rebounder, or that he doesn't seem to put in a consistent effort when he's on the court. I judge every player by the same criteria.

[Tim W.]

i understand the angst but some high expectations arent they?
if Bargs was able to carry the raptors the way you say he should, that would be magnificent on his behalf, even Chris bosh couldnt carry them to above 45 games and he is said to be 10x the player bargs is,

Also Bosh had Bargs on his team, bargs has barely any other currently decent players to back him up at the moment, hes not a amazing player so to expect him to be all you say is pretty unfair, especialy because Derozan is our next best prospect behind him and all he does is score. Bosh was never really thrust into the number one option with a team FULL of rookies and young players like Bargs is, so if Andrea is supposed to magically make this team of prospects playoff contenders, thats pretty raw.

High expectations? I have the same expectations for every player. It boggles my m,ind when people say I expect too much from Bargnani. I have minimum standards I expect from every player and, unfortunately, Bargnani doesn't reach them. Not as a star, but as a player I'd want on my team. I don't give a crap where he was drafted or what role he plays on the team. I have never, ever expected him to be an All-Star, let alone a franchise player. In fact, he is prety much exactly where I thought he would be when he was drafted.

The minimum I expect from a big man is decent defense, rebounding and to be somewhat efficient on offense. Basically, not to be a liability on either end of the court. And Bargnani doesn't do that. I expect consistent effort. And I don't see that. Why people think him putting up gaudy stats and becoming an All-Star will be the only thing that impresses me is beyond me. I've never suggested that's what he needs to do.

Bargnani is a strange case. He's simply not good enough to lead a decent team, but he doesn't do enough of the little things to be a good role player. I put him in the same category as a guy like Michael Beasley. Beasley is a very talented player, but isn't good enough to lead a good team, but doesn't do enough of the little things to be a role player. Guys like Bargnani and Beasley, in my opinion, are destined to continue to put up decent numbers on bad teams. Neither are bad players, by any stretch of the imagination, but neither have the type of game that you can really win with.

[The Rawth]

High expectations? I have the same expectations for every player. It boggles my m,ind when people say I expect too much from Bargnani. I have minimum standards I expect from every player and, unfortunately, Bargnani doesn't reach them. Not as a star, but as a player I'd want on my team. I don't give a crap where he was drafted or what role he plays on the team. I have never, ever expected him to be an All-Star, let alone a franchise player. In fact, he is prety much exactly where I thought he would be when he was drafted.

The minimum I expect from a big man is decent defense, rebounding and to be somewhat efficient on offense. Basically, not to be a liability on either end of the court. And Bargnani doesn't do that. I expect consistent effort. And I don't see that. Why people think him putting up gaudy stats and becoming an All-Star will be the only thing that impresses me is beyond me. I've never suggested that's what he needs to do.

Bargnani is a strange case. He's simply not good enough to lead a decent team, but he doesn't do enough of the little things to be a good role player. I put him in the same category as a guy like Michael Beasley. Beasley is a very talented player, but isn't good enough to lead a good team, but doesn't do enough of the little things to be a role player. Guys like Bargnani and Beasley, in my opinion, are destined to continue to put up decent numbers on bad teams. Neither are bad players, by any stretch of the imagination, but neither have the type of game that you can really win with.

Touche, that last paragraph i can understand haha
but i believe that with the right coaching or a developed group of players, bargs could fulfill his potential, its waiting to happen

[DunkinDerozan]

newww nickk name for bargsss

bsmoooooth!

aka

NSN

[Matt52]

A thought just came to my head can't a offer be made that is a incentive driven contract where say 1 mil is guaranteed and the other 7 mil is only available to him if he plays x amount of games and/or produces x amount of stats and/or the team wins x amount of games? or does his new contract have to be fully guaranteed to get him from Portland?

You can definitely have an incentive laden contract. Two issues arise from this though:

1) players are reluctant to accept such a deal for obvious reasons as money is not guaranteed,

2) every team in the league, POR included, would offer and/or match this type of contract for him.

[Maleko]

Touche, that last paragraph i can understand haha
but i believe that with the right coaching or a developed group of players, bargs could fulfill his potential, its waiting to happen

I agree coaching has to be there.

[Raptors_]

newww nickk name for bargsss

bsmoooooth!

Aka

nsn

ndn

No Defence needed

[DunkinDerozan]

ndn

No Defence needed

lol thats a great nickname for ed davis... props

[Tim W.]

I have several serious questions for Multipaul. I'd like him to answer them.

1. Why do you criticize DeRozan's defense but give a pass to Bargnani's poor defense?

2. Why do you criticize DeRozan for not driving more to the hoop when he, in fact, drives more than Bargnani does?

3. You have questioned my loyalty to the Raptors and called me a hater for being critical of Bargnani, but you, yourself, admitted that you have never liked Bosh. Don't you feel that's hypocritical?

4. Why did you claim that Bargnani averaged 6.5 rpg and 2 bpg since January 1st, when he's actually averaged 5 rpg and 0.7 bpg? Where did you get the incorrect information and why did you not respond when it was brought to your attention?

5. Why have you been so critical of Amir, yet continually laud Wayne Winston's mathletics, which show he's just as valuable as Bargnani to the Raptors?

6. Why do you not accept subpar games from, for example, Amir Johnson when he is playing injured, but excuse Bargnani for subpar games for exactly the same reason?

7. Why are you so critical of DeRozan for not raising his game when Bargnani is out when Bargnani had lower stats across the board in games last year that Bosh was out?

If you actually answer each one of them (fully), I will tip my hat to you and cease criticizing you.

[JoePanini]

High expectations? I have the same expectations for every player. It boggles my m,ind when people say I expect too much from Bargnani. I have minimum standards I expect from every player and, unfortunately, Bargnani doesn't reach them. Not as a star, but as a player I'd want on my team. I don't give a crap where he was drafted or what role he plays on the team. I have never, ever expected him to be an All-Star, let alone a franchise player. In fact, he is prety much exactly where I thought he would be when he was drafted.

The minimum I expect from a big man is decent defense, rebounding and to be somewhat efficient on offense. Basically, not to be a liability on either end of the court. And Bargnani doesn't do that. I expect consistent effort. And I don't see that. Why people think him putting up gaudy stats and becoming an All-Star will be the only thing that impresses me is beyond me. I've never suggested that's what he needs to do.

Bargnani is a strange case. He's simply not good enough to lead a decent team, but he doesn't do enough of the little things to be a good role player. I put him in the same category as a guy like Michael Beasley. Beasley is a very talented player, but isn't good enough to lead a good team, but doesn't do enough of the little things to be a role player. Guys like Bargnani and Beasley, in my opinion, are destined to continue to put up decent numbers on bad teams. Neither are bad players, by any stretch of the imagination, but neither have the type of game that you can really win with.

That, is sadly completely true.. I don't understand though why he can't play defense, I still remember in the final of the Euro cup in 2005 he played sick defense, was focused the entire game, hit shots over defenders and had a different appearance on the court than he has now. He used to play with flair and passion, he has lost this. Maybe it's the very loose leash he has been given by the Raptors or the salary he has been given, but he's not the player I was fascinated by for the passed 6 or so years. Even as a big Bargnani fan, I want him out of here. He hasn't done anything but score this year, I don't think he even tries to rebound and defend anymore. He is so talented, he is wasting it.

[grindhouse]

You can definitely have an incentive laden contract. Two issues arise from this though:

1) players are reluctant to accept such a deal for obvious reasons as money is not guaranteed,

2) every team in the league, POR included, would offer and/or match this type of contract for him.

That's good news I am not worried about ppl matching cause I think Portland is ready to walk away at this point. It's more about giving him a contract that he is worth, a vet min base with incentives to his rookie scale would be a good offer that I would take him for

[MangoKid]

That's good news I am not worried about ppl matching cause I think Portland is ready to walk away at this point. It's more about giving him a contract that he is worth, a vet min base with incentives to his rookie scale would be a good offer that I would take him for

Like Matt said, offering him something incentive ladened is pointless because Portland would match it. If you thought you could get him for a base salary of 2 million and 6-7 million in performance incentives, Portland would be crazy not to match it because chances are, they guy won't reach anywhere near the incentives and a base salary of 2 million guaranteed is much better for the Blazers than paying his near 9 million qualifying offer. You'd be doing the Blazers a favour by doing that.

[Maleko]

That, is sadly completely true.. I don't understand though why he can't play defense, I still remember in the final of the Euro cup in 2005 he played sick defense, was focused the entire game, hit shots over defenders and had a different appearance on the court than he has now. He used to play with flair and passion, he has lost this. Maybe it's the very loose leash he has been given by the Raptors or the salary he has been given, but he's not the player I was fascinated by for the passed 6 or so years. Even as a big Bargnani fan, I want him out of here. He hasn't done anything but score this year, I don't think he even tries to rebound and defend anymore. He is so talented, he is wasting it.

Exactly what I have been saying. He COULD be a great player, but is wasting it. So many players do this in the league now and years gone by. Boggles the mind.

[Multipaul]

It's simply that you do not see his deficiencies at all based upon your repeated posts. I say you have blinders on because you think he puts forward effort every game, and if he doesn't he must be ill or injured. Many professional players play ill or injured, but still put forth an effort. You deny Bargnani has a deficiency here so I say you have blinders on.



Tim, take a breath, these kids are going to give you a coronary.

Maleko

I disagree with you. I think it takes alot of effort to score 20+ pts in the NBA , with high level defenders double teaming you night in and night out.

Do you think that is easy? How about doing that while injured, and being expected to carry a team. I love your comment "many professional players play ill or injured but still put forth effort"

Unless you play or have played in the NBA, alot of what you say is pointless fodder designed to make ppl feel bad for liking Bargs.

[Multipaul]

Here are your answers:

1. Why do you criticize DeRozan's defense but give a pass to Bargnani's poor defense?

I didn't criticize it, more point out that it is not good, and not up to the level it should be. I never said Bargs is a great defender.

2. Why do you criticize DeRozan for not driving more to the hoop when he, in fact, drives more than Bargnani does?

I dont think you are correct here

3. You have questioned my loyalty to the Raptors and called me a hater for being critical of Bargnani, but you, yourself, admitted that you have never liked Bosh. Don't you feel that's hypocritical?

I am not. Bosh did very detrimental things to the team and to the city. He ruined this club, and tricked MLSE, GM, coach, etc. Ask BC, Triano, etc, how they feel about Bosh. I know you are a perennial Bosh lover, so I will say no more on this.

4. Why did you claim that Bargnani averaged 6.5 rpg and 2 bpg since January 1st, when he's actually averaged 5 rpg and 0.7 bpg? Where did you get the incorrect information and why did you not respond when it was brought to your attention?

That info was from Raptors Republic

5. Why have you been so critical of Amir, yet continually laud Wayne Winston's mathletics, which show he's just as valuable as Bargnani to the Raptors?

Amir has lost us many games due to repeated fouling, turnovers, etc in clutch situations. He has a low basketball IQ which jeopardizes our capacity to win on many nights. How did you like his stat line last night? PWNED

6. Why do you not accept subpar games from, for example, Amir Johnson when he is playing injured, but excuse Bargnani for subpar games for exactly the same reason?

If someone is injured and playing through it, I have NEVER criticized them.

7. Why are you so critical of DeRozan for not raising his game when Bargnani is out when Bargnani had lower stats across the board in games last year that Bosh was out?

Dero has been a starting 2 since day 1. He should be better. Bosh was lucky to have Bargs. Right now there is no one other than Bargs that can get you a guaranteed 20+ pts per game.


I don't expect you to "cease criticizing me"- that statement alone validates what I said about you. You hate Bargs and you hate his fans. I don't call you an all out "hater", since you obviously love trying to get under peoples skin and be confrontational.

More than likely you will get your wish, BC and Bargs will be gone, and I expect next year you have little to no contributions to this site until you find a new person and their fanbase to hate. I'm betting it will be whomever we draft. Tim W- "Kemba sucks", "Kyrie sucks", etc

[Maleko]

Maleko

I disagree with you. I think it takes alot of effort to score 20+ pts in the NBA , with high level defenders double teaming you night in and night out.

Do you think that is easy? How about doing that while injured, and being expected to carry a team. I love your comment "many professional players play ill or injured but still put forth effort"

Unless you play or have played in the NBA, alot of what you say is pointless fodder designed to make ppl feel bad for liking Bargs.

Sure it takes effort to score, and I do not deny that Bargnani seems to put in effort on shooting. He does not put in effort (save for a handful of games a year) for rebounding, running, defending, all integral parts of playing a game of basketball in the NBA. By the way Bargs is not double teamed on his 3pt shots, or his 15 footers.

Sorry to make you feel bad. Don't cry man.

[MangoKid]

Judging from the way you talk about hoops, I don't think you have ever played. I'll give you a pass. I don't need to justify my arguments to you. Watch some more hoops and you will learn something. Educated opinions hold alot more weight, FYI.

That's a pretty weak rebuttal.

[Multipaul]

That's a pretty weak rebuttal.

You would prefer what? That I disagree with his analysis of how much "effort" a player puts in?

There is not point in me arguing over and over again with someone. We just disagree, and I think that Maleko's comments show a lack of understanding of hoops.