Everything Bargnani: Grumble, Grumble, Grumble

[Tortacular]

I don't see any way in which Colangelo will trade him this summer. Just don't think he's ready to admit Bargs can't be a #1 (or even a good #2) guy.

Throw in all the CBA uncertainty (and the MLSE uncertainty) and I won't expect any big moves from the Raptors this off-season.

I suspect the Raptors will look much the same next year, outside of whomever they take in the lottery. Davis, Amir Johnson, Bargnani will be the top three bigs, so all will likely play close to 30 minutes a night (assuming they can all avoid foul problems enough to do so) regardless of their effectiveness. There's not much you can do with Bargnani really. If he's not scoring he is completely useless, and in order to score he has the ball WAY too much.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I think another solution would be is to get Bargnani the ample support that he needs.
While everybody here is busy pointing out his lack of effort in rebounding, defense, havent you guys considered the possibility that maybe the guy is just not skilled enough to rebound or defend?
Some might say, well, he's paid 10mil a year so he should be well worth what he's paid. True, but if youre going to brand a player as your "franchise player" then you have to give him all the possible resources to make him the best player for your team.
I may be wrong, but i havent heard any efforts from the Raps org to improve whatever skills Bargnani is lacking in. The Magic got Ewing for Howard, Kobe trained with Olajuwon, Bynum had Jabbar, etc etc.

If the Raps really want to go with Bargnani, get him an experienced, NBA veteran big man to train with. Stop him from playing for the national team and have him spend the summer going one on one with oakley or somebody.

[Tim W.]

I don't see any way in which Colangelo will trade him this summer. Just don't think he's ready to admit Bargs can't be a #1 (or even a good #2) guy.

If the guy hasn't seen what all but a few of us have seen this year, then I've lost all respect for the guy. It's become painfully obvious that Bargnani needs to go. When the more reasonable writers, like Michael Grange, are calling for Bargnani to be traded, the writing's on the wall.

[Tim W.]

I think another solution would be is to get Bargnani the ample support that he needs.
While everybody here is busy pointing out his lack of effort in rebounding, defense, havent you guys considered the possibility that maybe the guy is just not skilled enough to rebound or defend?

Then why on earth would you keep him??? I don't care WHY he doesn't rebound or defend. I care that he doesn't do it and those are EXTREMELY important ingredients to playing winning basketball.

I have no idea if the Raptors have made any big efforts to try and improve those aspects of his game (I think it's a good bet they have, though), but the fact that Bargnani has not himself, tells me everything I need to know. If it's obvious to the entire world what he needs to do, and he doesn't take the initiative himself, then that's yet another reason he's got to go.

Quite frankly, I can't figure out one good reason to keep him.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Then why on earth would you keep him??? I don't care WHY he doesn't rebound or defend. I care that he doesn't do it and those are EXTREMELY important ingredients to playing winning basketball.

I have no idea if the Raptors have made any big efforts to try and improve those aspects of his game (I think it's a good bet they have, though), but the fact that Bargnani has not himself, tells me everything I need to know. If it's obvious to the entire world what he needs to do, and he doesn't take the initiative himself, then that's yet another reason he's got to go.

Quite frankly, I can't figure out one good reason to keep him.

My threads question is: If the raps do decide to keep Bargnani, what can you offer as solutions that will allow him to still contribute to the team?

Like i said, i dont mind him being traded but that is not what i want discussed on MY thread. what im asking is if he does stay with the team, what are the possible solutions for him to improve or make the most out of his game?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Can we maybe have the option to delete posts on threads that we started?
Some posts do not directly relate to the initial purpose of the thread, therefore i consider useless and should be deleted.

[Tim W.]

Well that wasnt the premise of your argument. You said Bargnani is a 7 footer and 250lbs so he should be a center. Maybe back in your day, when coaches were like, ok, youre short so you bring the ball down, you tall guy, stand in the middle....But thats not how basketball is anymore, coaches nowadays ask, what position do you play? Doesnt matter if Magic was what you say he is, he played PG with that 6'9 200lbs frame. Im sure at one point in his career somebody told him he better smarten up and play his "expected" position, but if he did, we probably wouldnt be talking about him now, would we? BTW, Dirk is also another example, he's listed at 7 feet and 250lbs, power forward.

Why is Bargnani not a center? Simple, because he says he isnt one. He of all people should know what position he plays, if he says he's a power forward, then he is a power forward. how could you know any better than the actual player himself?

Ive said this before, the Raps need to get players that they need, not because they want to mold them into something theyre not. And that was their biggest fault with Bargnani.

Again, Magic is the exception. And I actually thought LeBron should play PG when he came into the league because I felt his best skill was his ability to pass.

The problem is there really is almost no difference between a PF and a center except who you defend. This isn't the difference between PF and PG. Dirk has played center, but his biggest problem is that he's not strong enough to defend the center position. Bargnani is. In fact, Bargnani defends the center position better than he defends the PF position because opposing PFs are simply too quick for him.

And you do realize that Bargnani has, for all intent and purposes, played the PF position this season, right? He was defended mostly by PFs and Reggie, Amir, Davis and Dorsey often took the center on defense (when the center was the better of the front court players). It made no difference. I really don't know what you are expecting to happen by him officially changing position. He'll still be and extremely poor defender and rebounder. None of that will change. And I know this because in the games he did play de facto PF there was no difference.

And the Raptors need to get players you can win with. I'm not interested in moulding a player into something he's not. I'm interested in players doing what they need to to win. If they can't, then find one's that can.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Then why on earth would you keep him??? I don't care WHY he doesn't rebound or defend. I care that he doesn't do it and those are EXTREMELY important ingredients to playing winning basketball.

I have no idea if the Raptors have made any big efforts to try and improve those aspects of his game (I think it's a good bet they have, though), but the fact that Bargnani has not himself, tells me everything I need to know. If it's obvious to the entire world what he needs to do, and he doesn't take the initiative himself, then that's yet another reason he's got to go.

Quite frankly, I can't figure out one good reason to keep him.

Just for the sake of argument.....

I think you as a fan of this team, should care why one of your main pieces is not "up-to-par". there can be numerous reasons, injury, disease or what not, well in this case, IMO, is lack of proper training. It maybe hypocritical to say that POB is not playing up to par so ill dump him, but its an entirely different case with Bargnani. Like i said, you brand him as your franchise player so the onus is on management to make him the best he can be.

well if the Raps are going to use that mentality, then might as well just sell the team. if youre not going to push your players to get better, then why heavily invest on them? i think this is why players get fined when theyre late, or miss practice, or say something bad about the team. players are forced to follow, of course youre right as well, it has to come from the player himself, but a push from somebody else does not hurt either.

[hateslosing]

The only way you keep Bargs is if you bring in a real center and don't want to rush Ed into the starting 4 role. I've given this some thought, and after reading about how BC still thinks Bargs is a four, I don't think their is any other way. You get a defensive focused 7 foot beast in here and you play him and Bargs as the starters with Ed backing them up. Then when Ed is ready you move him to the stating four spot and have Bargs play the sixth man scoring role. Maybe you get lucky and Bargs figures out this whole rebounding thing and you gain some flexibility, but I don't see any other logical situation in which Bargs is still here.

The one thing you do not do is move Ed to the five. We do not need another big who is built like a four to be forced into the 5 spot in order to let another guy be the power forward.

[footarez]

Can we maybe have the option to delete posts on threads that we started?
Some posts do not directly relate to the initial purpose of the thread, therefore i consider useless and should be deleted.

Look man,I think Tim W. is answering your topic in a way.I'm guessing he means that there aren't many solutions..in fact I guess he means there isn't solution at all.I agree with almost everything he writes about Bargnani.He writes exactly what I mean but in better english So I want him out of the team.And it sounds stupid I know but I would trade him even just for semi-good draft picks.
But in order to stay on your topic,"If the raps do decide to keep Bargnani, what can you offer as solutions that will allow him to still contribute to the team?".So if he is on the team I wouldn't definitely play him off the bench every night.I think in NBA it is very often a matter of match-ups.For example if we play against the Sixers I'd start him at C or at PF whatever he wants and I'd keep him in the game for 30+ minutes(if he scores and makes at least some effort) because he plays well against them and scores a lot of points.I don't remember exactly and I'm not looking at stats right now.I might be wrong but that is how I remember.So I play him more against teams he scores more and against teams he ain't that good I keep him on the bench and he might not even check in the game.Those ideas are a little weird and too personal I admit but the guy has shown no interest of defending and rebounding in 5 years,he has improved a bit his scoring but that is just not enough.I think Bargnani's problem is motivation and desire to do other things beside score to win.Unless some miracle happens and he changes his mindset it leaves me the match-ups proposal.

[Nick]

I say give Bargnani one more offseason, and possibly a season; hear me out. This is Bargnanis first season without Bosh, since Bargs was now our teams focal point, his inability to rebound became paramount. He was always a terrible rebounder, but it wasn't noticed as much as it was this year, it was never a problem. Is this Bargnanis fault or the coaches? Why was Bargnani babied so much throughout the years? Either way, he knows he sucks at rebounding right now, and as I've said before he is handling this criticism very well. Its not a matter of him being a bad basketball players, its the fact that he's dumb when it comes to basketball. I'm guessing he never watched allot of NBA growing up in Italy, therefore he THOUGHT it was all about offence. He is a smart enough guy that he understands his defence needs to improve, he's being called out, this is sometimes a tough reality of growing into a man in the NBA, its not always gentle. If he could improve his rebound by 3-4 boards next season (which is completely feasible under the right guidance), then how the hell do you trade him? When you have the player who most closely resembles Norwitzki, you are crazy to trade him. I'm just as frustrated as every other Raptors fans with Bargs right now, but what do we have to lose to let his defence develop one more year? He's not going to get any worse.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Look man,I think Tim W. is answering your topic in a way.I'm guessing he means that there aren't many solutions..in fact I guess he means there isn't solution at all.I agree with almost everything he writes about Bargnani.He writes exactly what I mean but in better english So I want him out of the team.And it sounds stupid I know but I would trade him even just for semi-good draft picks.
But in order to stay on your topic,"If the raps do decide to keep Bargnani, what can you offer as solutions that will allow him to still contribute to the team?".So if he is on the team I wouldn't definitely play him off the bench every night.I think in NBA it is very often a matter of match-ups.For example if we play against the Sixers I'd start him at C or at PF whatever he wants and I'd keep him in the game for 30+ minutes(if he scores and makes at least some effort) because he plays well against them and scores a lot of points.I don't remember exactly and I'm not looking at stats right now.I might be wrong but that is how I remember.So I play him more against teams he scores more and against teams he ain't that good I keep him on the bench and he might not even check in the game.Those ideas are a little weird and too personal I admit but the guy has shown no interest of defending and rebounding in 5 years,he has improved a bit his scoring but that is just not enough.I think Bargnani's problem is motivation and desire to do other things beside score to win.Unless some miracle happens and he changes his mindset it leaves me the match-ups proposal.

well, he shouldve just come out and said "There are no solutions, period." That wouldve been ok with me, but to turn MY thread into another "he cant defend, cant rebound, he needs to go" bargnani bashing thread is what irks me. even i admit the guy cant defend or rebound, but to keep saying it over and over again is what turns into bashing.

thank you for the response, on point and elaborate.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I say give Bargnani one more offseason, and possibly a season; hear me out. This is Bargnanis first season without Bosh, since Bargs was now our teams focal point, his inability to rebound became paramount. He was always a terrible rebounder, but it wasn't noticed as much as it was this year, it was never a problem. Is this Bargnanis fault or the coaches? Why was Bargnani babied so much throughout the years? Either way, he knows he sucks at rebounding right now, and as I've said before he is handling this criticism very well. Its not a matter of him being a bad basketball players, its the fact that he's dumb when it comes to basketball. I'm guessing he never watched allot of NBA growing up in Italy, therefore he THOUGHT it was all about offence. He is a smart enough guy that he understands his defence needs to improve, he's being called out, this is sometimes a tough reality of growing into a man in the NBA, its not always gentle. If he could improve his rebound by 3-4 boards next season (which is completely feasible under the right guidance), then how the hell do you trade him? When you have the player who most closely resembles Norwitzki, you are crazy to trade him. I'm just as frustrated as every other Raptors fans with Bargs right now, but what do we have to lose to let his defence develop one more year? He's not going to get any worse.

sorry for the language, but FUCKING EXACTLY! nobody (well at least i wasnt reading here as much of) put him on the chopping block in the past 4 years as much as everybody's doing now. He is forced into becoming a franchise player and in the 1st year, everybody is already assuming he's the worst player in the league. Byron Scott is a decorated coach and this year, his first coaching job with the cavs, he coaches them into last place. Should they fire him? Of course not. Why? Coz he doesnt have the tools to make the cavs a winning team. So what do the Cavs need to do? Get him better players. Same with Bargnani. Does he have the tools to be a franchise player? maybe and maybe not, but the fact of the matter is, the Raps consider him as such. So they should "make" him into one. If given the necessary tools and his "laziness" still overcomes, then the Raps can say, well, we've done all we can with this one and then exploring trade options is the right way to go.

[Nick]

sorry for the language, but FUCKING EXACTLY! nobody (well at least i wasnt reading here as much of) put him on the chopping block in the past 4 years as much as everybody's doing now. He is forced into becoming a franchise player and in the 1st year, everybody is already assuming he's the worst player in the league. Byron Scott is a decorated coach and this year, his first coaching job with the cavs, he coaches them into last place. Should they fire him? Of course not. Why? Coz he doesnt have the tools to make the cavs a winning team. So what do the Cavs need to do? Get him better players. Same with Bargnani. Does he have the tools to be a franchise player? maybe and maybe not, but the fact of the matter is, the Raps consider him as such. So they should "make" him into one. If given the necessary tools and his "laziness" still overcomes, then the Raps can say, well, we've done all we can with this one and then exploring trade options is the right way to go.

Well said my man. I'll admit it, I've had allot of built up angst towards Bargs, probably because he was really the only worthy player that can be criticised. But after letting my anger dilute a little bit, I sat back and looked at the big picture. It was a total rebuilding year, but people don't understand that rebuilding isn't a one dimensional concept. Example: The Raptors are rebuilding in terms of stocking up on youthful players, as well there are personalities that need to be rebuilt, Trianos approach to the game is constantly being rebuilt, etc.. In my opinion, Bargs had no clue as to what was expected of him this year. Let it sink in over the summer, and hopefully he comes back with a rebuilt personality, and a rebuilt approach to defence. As you've said, many people are completely throwing him under the bus, but to me seems like an oxymoron. They all praised CB4 while he was here, but look at his defence, it sucks. Granted he can grab more boards than Bargs, but this is simply a product of playing American basketball. If the Heat lose this offseason, Bosh is getting shipped out. Bargs just needs to find his groove. It's refreshing to see a Raptors fan who doesn't go with the mainstream, thanks tbihis!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Again, Magic is the exception. And I actually thought LeBron should play PG when he came into the league because I felt his best skill was his ability to pass.

The problem is there really is almost no difference between a PF and a center except who you defend. This isn't the difference between PF and PG. Dirk has played center, but his biggest problem is that he's not strong enough to defend the center position. Bargnani is. In fact, Bargnani defends the center position better than he defends the PF position because opposing PFs are simply too quick for him.

And you do realize that Bargnani has, for all intent and purposes, played the PF position this season, right? He was defended mostly by PFs and Reggie, Amir, Davis and Dorsey often took the center on defense (when the center was the better of the front court players). It made no difference. I really don't know what you are expecting to happen by him officially changing position. He'll still be and extremely poor defender and rebounder. None of that will change. And I know this because in the games he did play de facto PF there was no difference.

And the Raptors need to get players you can win with. I'm not interested in moulding a player into something he's not. I'm interested in players doing what they need to to win. If they can't, then find one's that can.

Well, why cant Bargnani be an exception as well? Is there a written rule that is being followed as to why he cant play a position others dont brand him to be in? Magic is not an exception, he is among a few.

Then why do you keep saying he's a center? Now youre saying PF and C are the same. Why didnt you say he's a PF and C in the first place? Im not comparing a PF and PG, or C and PG, im merely using Magic as an example that not all players need to be categorized in a specific position based on their body structure.

I think that was one of the main reasons why this season was a wash, and Triano said it himself, he had to change lineups and rotations on a nightly basis. And that doesnt go well for a team, coz there's no stability. Same with Bargnani, he probably got confused at some point, what should i really do here? guard PFs? guard Cs?

Well, you dont know that. you cant really tell how his gameplay will change if you dedicate him to the PF spot, hence the phrase practice makes perfect. Maybe he's not versatile enough to play both positions, why expose him to that situation? if he says he's a PF, then make him a PF. if youve dedicated your resources into making him a PF and he's still crap, then get rid of him. But its unfair to assume that he dilly-dallied from two positions that he's the worst in both without even having him planted on one specific position.

we share the same sentiments here. but you cant keep getting guys for one thing (scoring) and try to expect them to be above average in another thing when clearly, the guy is not. if the team needs scoring and defense and you want to get both in one player, then get that player.

[Tim W.]

well, he shouldve just come out and said "There are no solutions, period." That wouldve been ok with me, but to turn MY thread into another "he cant defend, cant rebound, he needs to go" bargnani bashing thread is what irks me. even i admit the guy cant defend or rebound, but to keep saying it over and over again is what turns into bashing.

thank you for the response, on point and elaborate.

I thought that's what I did say. I tried to say it in a lighthearted way, but it footarez, whose first language isn't even English, go it.

And the reason we keep saying it is because a) some people keep denying it and b) because it's the best way to illustrate why he needs to go.

To be clear, I see absolutely no way that the Raptors can keep Bargnani and hope to eventually field a contender. The two are completely different paths, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not one of those guys who says that Bargnani sucks or has no skills. He does. But everything in the fibre of my being tells me that Bargnani does not have the type of game that helps you win. Loads of players have had decent careers playing on mediocre to bad teams who have been similar to Bargnani. That's the future I see for him.

Alternatively, if he's given a small role where he's asked to play 15 mpg as a situational role player who can come in and create some matchup problems, I think he'd do fine, but he's not being paid to do that. Unfortunately I'm not even convinced he can do that because he's never done well when asked to come off the bench and he seems to need lots of touches to be effective, something he's not going to get as a situational role player.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Well said my man. I'll admit it, I've had allot of built up angst towards Bargs, probably because he was really the only worthy player that can be criticised. But after letting my anger dilute a little bit, I sat back and looked at the big picture. It was a total rebuilding year, but people don't understand that rebuilding isn't a one dimensional concept. Example: The Raptors are rebuilding in terms of stocking up on youthful players, as well there are personalities that need to be rebuilt, Trianos approach to the game is constantly being rebuilt, etc.. In my opinion, Bargs had no clue as to what was expected of him this year. Let it sink in over the summer, and hopefully he comes back with a rebuilt personality, and a rebuilt approach to defence. As you've said, many people are completely throwing him under the bus, but to me seems like an oxymoron. They all praised CB4 while he was here, but look at his defence, it sucks. Granted he can grab more boards than Bargs, but this is simply a product of playing American basketball. If the Heat lose this offseason, Bosh is getting shipped out. Bargs just needs to find his groove. It's refreshing to see a Raptors fan who doesn't go with the mainstream, thanks tbihis!

In all honesty, im really not a fan of Bargnani. I only like him coz he plays for the Raps, but if he gets shipped somewhere, then ill probably wont mention a word about him anymore, unless he becomes a monster rebounder for another team and wins a title, then ill be reposting all the crappy stuff that some people here have said about him, but that probably as far fetched as me winning the lottery.

What im always trying to defend is the fact that its unfair to put him under the bus because of the mistakes of Raps management. It was clear early on that the Raps drafted him for his scoring abilities, not his defense. And i think this is what fans dont, or maybe refuse to understand. The fact that now that he's under the spotlight, everybody wants to turn him into a beast in the middle, a post presence, when clearly watching him during his early years in Italy, he was not.

Im not opposed to trading him at all but trade him him with the right intent.

[Nick]

I thought that's what I did say. I tried to say it in a lighthearted way, but it footarez, whose first language isn't even English, go it.

And the reason we keep saying it is because a) some people keep denying it and b) because it's the best way to illustrate why he needs to go.

To be clear, I see absolutely no way that the Raptors can keep Bargnani and hope to eventually field a contender. The two are completely different paths, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not one of those guys who says that Bargnani sucks or has no skills. He does. But everything in the fibre of my being tells me that Bargnani does not have the type of game that helps you win. Loads of players have had decent careers playing on mediocre to bad teams who have been similar to Bargnani. That's the future I see for him.

Alternatively, if he's given a small role where he's asked to play 15 mpg as a situational role player who can come in and create some matchup problems, I think he'd do fine, but he's not being paid to do that. Unfortunately I'm not even convinced he can do that because he's never done well when asked to come off the bench and he seems to need lots of touches to be effective, something he's not going to get as a situational role player.

15 mpg for a guy who's 15th in the league in points?? Bargs has the potential to be a good defensive player, just needs to be taught to be more aggressive. This falls on Triano and Mitchell for not making this happen. You can't teach a person nuclear physics without a teacher, unless your a genius; this is a correlation to players who are naturally good defensive players.

[Tim W.]

Well said my man. I'll admit it, I've had allot of built up angst towards Bargs, probably because he was really the only worthy player that can be criticised. But after letting my anger dilute a little bit, I sat back and looked at the big picture. It was a total rebuilding year, but people don't understand that rebuilding isn't a one dimensional concept. Example: The Raptors are rebuilding in terms of stocking up on youthful players, as well there are personalities that need to be rebuilt, Trianos approach to the game is constantly being rebuilt, etc.. In my opinion, Bargs had no clue as to what was expected of him this year. Let it sink in over the summer, and hopefully he comes back with a rebuilt personality, and a rebuilt approach to defence. As you've said, many people are completely throwing him under the bus, but to me seems like an oxymoron. They all praised CB4 while he was here, but look at his defence, it sucks. Granted he can grab more boards than Bargs, but this is simply a product of playing American basketball. If the Heat lose this offseason, Bosh is getting shipped out. Bargs just needs to find his groove. It's refreshing to see a Raptors fan who doesn't go with the mainstream, thanks tbihis!

I'm sorry, but this is just another in a very long line of excuses. Bargnani has been given chance after chance and more opportunities than I think any player in the history of the league. How many times can you say "he just needs..." before you start realizing that it's not going to happen. Why is it that Bargnani needs such specific conditions in order to develop properly, but all these other players don't? And do you really want to keep a guy who needs such perfect conditions? I've said it over and over again, but it's not as if he's really even that good. You guys seem to be so desperate to figure out how to make basically a slightly above average player fit in. Why?

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

I thought that's what I did say. I tried to say it in a lighthearted way, but it footarez, whose first language isn't even English, go it.

And the reason we keep saying it is because a) some people keep denying it and b) because it's the best way to illustrate why he needs to go.

To be clear, I see absolutely no way that the Raptors can keep Bargnani and hope to eventually field a contender. The two are completely different paths, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not one of those guys who says that Bargnani sucks or has no skills. He does. But everything in the fibre of my being tells me that Bargnani does not have the type of game that helps you win. Loads of players have had decent careers playing on mediocre to bad teams who have been similar to Bargnani. That's the future I see for him.

Alternatively, if he's given a small role where he's asked to play 15 mpg as a situational role player who can come in and create some matchup problems, I think he'd do fine, but he's not being paid to do that. Unfortunately I'm not even convinced he can do that because he's never done well when asked to come off the bench and he seems to need lots of touches to be effective, something he's not going to get as a situational role player.

You know very well that people take everything literally in this forum (wink-wink) so i wouldnt beat around the bush and just say what it is exactly that you want said. and again, i asked on my thread what possible solutions, not how bad of a player you think bargnani is.

I think tunnel visioning when it comes to Bargnani is always unhealthy. no matter how bad defensively or rebounding wise you say he is, he still can be a very positive contributor to a team. i think we've gone over this before (matchups, scoring, etc) so id rather not elaborate again.

so youre basically saying he is not good enough to play in the NBA? no disrespect but given the raps made a "mistake" on drafting him, it has been reported that numerous GMs would jump on the chance to acquire his services. everyone is entitled to his opinion, but insinuating that a player like Barganani is not good enough to play in the NBA is either hateful or just plain ignorant, IMO.