Agree, I will give him until December to show some improvements(which will be unlikely) and ship him out. That draft pick was a huge mistake and I have already accepted Bargs is a bust(Kwame Brown, Kenyon Martin, Michael Olowokandi, Sam Bowie and Greg Oden are also busts). What we can hope for as Rap fans is that with a likely Top 5 pick in the 2011 draft, we don't make same mistakes like the Bargs, Graham and Araujo picks, if not, we officially become LA Clippers North.Bandido wrote:
have you even watched a raptors game since 2005?
check out barg's amazing d against dorsey in this video, 1:00-1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgqWeY2Wtgc
I'm not sure we can rely too much on your judgment dear Karl, your theories were nice but inapplicable, thus the deaths, terror and lack of freedom.
ka mate, ka ora, whiti te rā!!, hī!
OK, putting Bargs in the same basket as Graham and Araujo is just plain mean. His problem is that people had great expectations being the no.1 pick in the draft, but let's face it they were unrealistic. That must have been one of the all-time worst draft classes, and BC saw in him a guy who can stretch the floor. He is exactly that kind of player. What everyone was hoping was that he can improve his defense and rebounding and become one of the best big men in the league, but we can safely say that won't happen. So he is what he is, a good shooting big man (which always has value in this league), but poor defender.
The real question is does Bargs fit into Raptor plans? If we are in total rebuild mode of course we would trade him for a descent offer, but after the off-season does anyone really think BC wants to go that way?
Sorry dude but this might explain a lot of things about you, more than about Baraganingnini. ;-)
ka mate, ka ora, whiti te rā!!, hī!
Let me first say that I'm personally not a Bargnani fan, but remember, its been well known that GMs around the league have salivated at Bargnani's skill set and the mis-match problems he creates. He was picked #1 for a reason, and its probably not just the raps that would have done that. Have to learn how to use him effectively, thats all, give it time.
I think it is unfair to put the poor pre-season efforts just on Bargnani. Yes his shot wasn't falling, but it's pre-season and even the best shooters have off nights.
My bigger concern is the overall gameplan, or lack thereof. To think that Bargnani stands out of the 3-pt line all the time because he's lazy and wants to play there, is complete ignorance. Bargnani is there because he is told to be there. Triano has come out and said that through the first 2 games, there have been no set plays for any specific player. I think Triano should be running set plays for Bargnani in the paint, posting up. Bargnani has solid offensive skills, but he seems more like a player that needs to know what plays are being run to know where he should be and what he should be doing - he does not strike me as the type of player who would do well in a pickup game where everything is chaotic. At times in the Phoenix game, the YGZ were hogging the ball and seemed only interested in looking for their fellow YGZ - I am not making an excuse for Bargnani, though I do think a good coach would realize what type of gameplan is needed for Bargnani to thrive, in order to get the most out of him. A gameplan with no set plays is not the right gameplan for that.
Bargnani just needs to get into better gameshape (to get his stamina and legs under him), find his rythym and get used to playing the run-and-gun style of play. There is no reason to expect that to happen through just 2 games. In addition, Triano needs to run more of a defined gameplan with at least some set plays for Bargnani, which force him to post up and to get him some open looks. Like any streak shooter, Bargnani needs to be involved early on and get a couple easy shots to fall, otherwise he gets complacent and forces bad shots.
I hope Bargs gets dunked on 100 times this season just like that... because if he is it means he's contesting the help-side defense and challenging attempts at the rim. Even the announcers were like "Bargnani was right there..." - He challenged the dunk attempt without fouling him and Lasme had a difficult time putting that down (to the point of landing on his ass) which is all you can ask of a big man trying to cover up someone else's mistake (albeit Dorsey was in a bad mismatch)
When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...
Tommys line right after that was cut it went something like
"... wow Bargniani was right there and just waved at him... I tell ya he has got to be a guy who drives the coaching staff nuts with effort like that ..."
"I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"
a second look:
Dunk was for the lead
Demoralized Raps
Energized Celts
its just a little play but in the NBA the margin for error is small - listless effort like that is poison.
Also what the he11 was Dorsey doing going the wrong way??
Last edited by charlz; Tue Oct 12th, 2010 at 12:12 PM.
"I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"
I've been a big supporter of Bargs over his tenure, but I think its time to move him. He's everything you don't want your big man to be: Gritty, competitive, works down low, rebounds/defence.
I think some of you are misunderstanding what is being said... to simplify: Bargs is great, he does alot of things well but its in the raps best intrest to trade him now and collect some decent assets for the future. Jjust cause some of you like bargs (myself included) doesnt mean he should be on te raptors. other Gms show intrest in him. Maybe the raps can pickup something good.
Open your minds and look at the big picture... its time
David fricken-anderson is playing better then Andrea right now.... Cmon MAN!
Great points. Trading Bargnani is about making the team better and getting more assets or acquiring pieces to help the team. It has nothing to do with if he is your favourite player or not. I think any decision about trading Bargnani would have to be made only after seeing Davis in action.
I ask this question because this thread has turned in to trade him or not:
If you want to trade Barganani, what do you want in return?
*Please be realistic, meaning no sense sending Bargnani to OKC for Durant or Miami for LBJ or NOH for Paul*
Here are my suggestions - some would need to wait until off-season or until Bargnani's BYC is expired:
1) Sign and trade Jeff Green for Bargnani in the off-season. I'm not sure how much Green will be looking for but 5 years at $45-50M seems reasonable given the current market. Green is a true wing player who has never played his proper position in the NBA. The fact he does what he does behind Durant and Westbrook is amazing. Durant rebounds very well and Aldrich is looking to be the banger and grinder they need in the middle. I think Bargs would fit well here and Green would fit well with the Raps. It would probably push Kleiza to the second unit.
2) Bargnani to LAC for Kaman. Kaman is an all-star quality centre. Bargnani would fit well with Blake Griffin IMO.
3) Bargnani to Orlando for Gortat, Anderson, draft pick.
4) Bargnani to GSW for Biendris and draft pick. *IF Biendris has proven to return to 2 seasons ago form*
Not necessarily saying I'd do these but I could see them working for each team.
This is one of my biggest complaints among his excuses. First of all, no, Bargnani is not told to stand out by the three point line and not be active in the offense. He's there because that's where he's most comfortable. When there's no gameplan on offense, everyone does what they're most comfortable doing.
And why does Bargnani need to get in better gameshape when he's been playing basketball all summer? There are four guys who can't use the excuse that they need to get in better shape: Kleiza, Andersen, Barbosa and Bargnani. Three out of the four of them have played well so far.
And besides, Bargnani's shooting woes is something most people care in the least about. He's still shown himself to be a liability on defense and on the boards. I think we all could live with Bargnani shooting poorly if he showed us something else. But he hasn't. Personally, I don't give a crap how he's shot, but the fact of the matter is that when he's missing, he's a big liability, and when he's not, he's still a liability, just not as much.
Your whole comment was about his offense, and that is the least of his problems.
1) I like Green and was one reason I wanted Bosh to sign with Oklahoma. He's a poor PF, but I think he'd be an above average SF. Only problem is that the Raptors already have a SF, now. Of course, I don't think Kleiza is good enough not to go after Green. Overall, I like it.
2) Kaman is a very productive player whose also not a very good defensive player. No thanks.
3) I think this makes sense for both teams. Bargnani can play at the PF position and back Howard up. Gortat would probably flourish with the Raptors. Don't know I'd want Anderson, though.
4) There was a time I liked Biedrins, but he's played in a bad system so long it's hurt his development. He's actually not a good defensive player and he's paid far too much.
Personally, I'd like to see if the Raptors can get Rubio and maybe a draft pick or another player off of Minnesota for Bargnani.
I think the Knicks would be a great team for Bargnani to go to, but I don't know if there's anything they have I'd want.
Maybe New Jersey would trade Derrick Favors for Bargnani, in the hope Favors can be a center.
Possibly a sign and trade for Marc Gasol?
Phoenix might want to trade TUrkoglu for him in a couple of months. Okay, I just wanted to see if you were paying attention.
Fair enough.
But I was against giving Jose that contract at the time because he had never played a full season as the primary starter for TO. Subsequent to that contract he has been very injury prone to say the least unlike Jack who hasn't missed a regular season game in 3 years but one would need a crystal ball to see that coming.
Bargnani got his contract extension based on exactly what? Potential? I'll give Barg's 20 regular season games to gauge where his play is at in relation to his contract. There are alot of bad contracts in the NBA- can't argue that, & Barg's may or may not end up as one of them- it's all up to Bargnani.
As well, Jose & Bargnani (the 2 highest paid Raptor's for 2010-11) are tying up 17 million real dollars (Barg's is a BYC....***) that could be used to upgrade TO significantly not to mention that either one or both could eventually be on the bench this season when the Rap's start games.
I thought Kaman was alright defensively. He is certainly a step up from Andrea. Maybe I overestimated his ability there.
Favors would be a risk at this point IMO but I do think he'd work well with Lopez - although Lopez is not a great rebounder for his size and position.
I can't see letting Gasol go for Bargnani because having Randolph (while a free agent next year) and Bargnani would be the worst defensive PF/C combo in the league.
Minnesota trade Rubio for Bargs I would totally go for but I don't think we'd be getting a draft pick from them nor do I think we should send them a draft pick.
Thanks for thinking about it. Good thoughts there.
LOL on Turk. Poor Nash.
Dorsey looks like he was over playing a potential hand off to West.
At this point in the game Bargnani needs to send Lasme to the foul line- point blank. Hopefully this type of play or lack of game situation recognition from Barg's won't carry over into the regular season.
BC Says He Gets Trade Offers for Bargnani All The Time- Well What Are They?!?!?
I remember BC saying in an interview earlier this past summer that he gets trade offers for Bargnani all the time but he never mentioned the specifics or exact trade particulars.
I was wondering what type of offers has BC turned down for Bargnani over the years.
Is AB an irreplaceable part of BC's Euro based basketball ideology & philosophy experiment in TO?
Is Bargnani part of the Raptor's future or is his value better used as a trade assest to gain better parts for TO?
Can anyone enlighten me as to why BC seemingly to refuses the thought of ever parting ways with Bargnani?
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