Funny how sirchilly and you cannot stop slamming Bargs for his faults but see mostly strengths in the guys you like. I will not get into who was worse because I'm tired of that but Bargs is far from the problem on this squad.
In a previous post, I compared Bargnani's Wins Produced numbers to the last 12 years of first overall picks. This time, I've added all the advanced numbers, such as PPS, per 48 minute stats, and even PER and Win Shares (note: I do not condone use of Win Shares or PER - especially PER). I've also extended the comparison down to Olowokandi and included Darko Milicic (who was actually a second overall pick), because those are the two players Bargnani apologists inevitably claim were worse than picks than Bargnani. And remember: these numbers only include the first four seasons of each player's career. Here are the more complete numbers (spreadsheet here), this time in the form of a handy little gadget which (if it works correctly) should allow you to sort by whatever category you want.What do the numbers tell us? Well for one, Andrea Bargnani does not compare very favourably to the rest of these players. Ranked by WP48 he is dead last behind Olowokandi, Milicic, and Brown. If for some reason you don't "agree" with Wins Produced, ranked by PER (worth repeating: I do not condone use of PER) he is 11th (ahead of Brown, Milicic, and Olowokandi), and ranked by Win Shares (worth repeating: I do not condone use of Win Shares) he is 12th, ahead of Olowokandi and the small sample size of John Wall. If you weigh all three metrics (WP, WS, and PER) equally (which, again, I do not) and take the cumulative rank - 'Combo Rank' - Bargnani comes out 2nd last, behind Milicic and ahead of Olowokandi. Regardless of how you slice it, Bargnani was bad for a first overall pick.But something interesting happens when you sort these players by points per 48 minutes; all of the sudden Bargnani moves up to 7th place, ahead of notably better players like Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, and Andrew Bogut. As David Berri has mentioned over and over, the popular way of evaluating NBA players is by points scored, so it should be no surprise that so many fans (and certain GMs) have problems recognizing that Bargnani is not very productive. Casual fans are blinded by the relatively large amounts of points that Bargnani scores, failing to notice his lack of production in other areas - such as rebounding - or his shooting efficiency (Bargnani is also 4th in FG attempts.For all you stat heads out there the OP uses advance stats (PPS, PER, PER 48, WinShare) even though he, like I, doesn't condone their (PER, WinShare) use to convincingly back up his claims on the Bargnani illusion.As the most comprehensive 'Bargnani is a bust' post I've written to date, hopefully it will help more people realize that Bargnani is not a very productive player. The Raptors need to trade Bargnani as soon as possible, before the rest of the league catch on to his lack of production and while his value is at its highest. Exchanging Bargnani for a more productive Centre would do wonders for the franchise and is something that should be GM Bryan Colangelo's number one priority.
Last edited by SirChillyMost; Mon Nov 8th, 2010 at 03:48 PM.
Bargnani needs to go ASAP in my mind as his lackadaisical inconsistent effort is bringing down the team in my mind it's time for some new team energy sans Bargs. s m f h
I have seen very little in any improvement of Barg's defense or rebounding efforts not to mention he is allergic to floor burns ie hustling. When is the last time Bargnani actually got down on the floor going after a loose ball? Yet this is the one guy who is named a preseason starter by BC & Jay- what type of message does that send the rest of the roster? s m f h
For all of his offensive gifts he gives up just as much on defense even Jay when questioned earlier this season by reporters about Bargnai's defensive improvements gave a very revealing and direct "no" answer. s m f h
This is year 5 if not now when will he finally put it all together? s m f h
Are all of the Raptor shortcomings Barg's fault? No. But he is the face of those problems and I just feel it's time to cut ties with Bargnani and go a whole nother direction with skill players who hustle hard not skill players who hardly hustle. s m f h
Last edited by SirChillyMost; Mon Nov 8th, 2010 at 06:34 PM.
You sir are a poster with integrity !
I pay no attention to PER or win share as both are complete non sense to rate a player...all you really need to do is watch the games to see how lazy and little impact he has..he is a losing player...in that you''ll never see him in a prominent role on a winning team in this league,he doesnt have the make up and pedigree needed for that....you can see it every night....
Look forward to many more of your intelligently written pieces...
Exactly. What am I going to believe some stats (which is just another way to lie, mislead Poli Sci 101) or my own lying eyes?
Btw- I didn't write this piece but I agree with it in its totality.
I didn't even read this article but since Bargnani is in the title, I'll go with it. This game showed just how negative of an Bargnani can have on your team. His first half defense was the worst it has ever been and every minute he was on the court, there was a serious imbalance. As soon as he went off and a more "traditional" lineup came to be, things started to click. Not saying we would've won the game with Amir playing more minutes since we have no answer for Monta/Curry, but it would've been better. Bargs' help D is so bad, so so bad that I can't even describe it. I dont' even care about his single rebound, its the defensive ripples he causes on every single defensive possession that boils my blood.
I've been pretty busy this season and haven't seen a lot of games. I am usually prone to defend players, as my posts regarding calderon demonstrate. However I would like to use my first post of the season to say the bargs is an asset worth moving. Not sure what I want for him but I know I don't want him anymore. I'm not saying he was a bad first pick bit I think it is safe to say he hasn't panned out.
"They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee
"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon
As others above have said, no stats are necessary to see why Bargnani is considered an unproductive player. All you need to do is sit down and watch 5 straight Raptors games while keeping your eyes glued to Bargs on defense. By the 5th possession of the first game you'll be getting concerned, but doing it for 5 games straight will remove any doubt from your mind.
What I wonder about is whether all hope is really lost with him or not. I used to be strongly convinced that this was the case, but I'm not completely sold. A lot of players need a year of getting their asses kicked in some way in order to be sold on the idea of dedicating yourself to playing hard every night. There's a Sam Mitchel quote that I loved from his time as coach, "You'll lose until losing stops being acceptable". That's probably not the exact quote, it's been a while, but you get the idea; will this be the year that Bargnani comes to the realization that he just flat out doesn't want to lose 50 games a year for the length of his contract?
So should he be moved? I still say yes, because even though he could become a much better player in a different system, with a different coach, with a mental breakthrough, I still don't see in him that spark of basketball IQ that you need to have at the playoff level. At least not in a starting role. Until he figures the game out, his niche in the NBA will inevitably be starter on a bad team or scorer off the bench on a better one.
Source - Click hereRhett (Toronto) - David, long-suffering Raptors fan here. I'm wondering about your take on Bargnani. His scoring is up, yes, but his defence and rebounding are reprehensible. What do you think of him?
David Thorpe (12:06 PM) - He's a nice off the bench scorer thrust into a role far beyond his game.
Bargnani has on occassions bursts of baskets but seriously if you play the guy more then 30 minutes he hurts you on the rebounding and defensive end more so then his scoring input. In Golden States they figured the same thing about Andris Biedrins who hurt his team more on the scoring and defensive end when he plays more then 30 minutes a game.
Sadly, Bargs is a healthy Mehmet Okur on a good day. That's it, no more, no less.
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
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