View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #6341
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    my point was what you said was incomplete. Dirk has always had a defense rating somewhere between average and good.

    Did Raef lafrentz and Bradley's defense rating help Dirk? Maybe. Or did Dirk's defense helped Raef and Bradley have their "best drtg of their careers"?

    Tyson Chandlers defense rating was right at his career average last year. Exactly the same as the year before when he played on one of the best defensive teams in the league.

    Chris Bosh's defense rating got worse every year Bargnani was beside him. Bargnani's got worse every year Bosh was beside him. When Bosh left his defense rating jumped to the 2nd best of his career (103). When Bosh left Bargnani's defense rating ended up being the worst of his career (115)


    There is a pretty amazing (although imperfect) correlation between Bargnani's minutes per game and his defense rating getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes per game and his teammates defense ratings getting worse. That same correlation exists between Bargnani's minutes and the team's opponents FG%... at some point it can no longer be everyone else's fault. That there is one central issue making everyone else, atleast appear, worse defensively

    So will putting a defensive minded C beside Bargnani improve Bargnani's defense rating? I don't doubt it. And conversely Bargnani will also make that same defensive C look worse defensively.
    I just checked on 82games, and during Bosh's last year with the Raps, he had a better DRtg playing center alongside Bargnani but Bargnani had the worst DRtg play alongside Bosh as a PF, but he has the a better DRtg when playing Center alongside Bosh as a PF. Im confused.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    I don't disagree that Bargnani is much more talented than Frye, but as it relates to tbihis and my discussion prior, he doesn't use that talent so in the end it makes no difference. Is not using a talent any better than not having a talent at all? In theory, yes as there is the possibility that talent could be used. In reality no, atleast as long as that talent is not being used.
    I think Apollo meant more talented offensively.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think its pretty much the same why as when people compare Bargnani to another 7 footer, 250+lbs and is labeled as "Center" and expects him to do the exact same things as other 7 footers who play as center in the league.
    People don't compare him to other 7 footers as much as they simply compare him to other big men. And the reason they do that is that many (including myself) feel that there are some absolute minimums of what big men NEED to be able to do in order not to be a detriment to the team, and Bargnani doesn't do those things. It's kind of like getting a PG who is a horrible passer.

    There are two many people who want to say that Bargnani's role isn't to play defense and rebound, but to score. The problem is he plays a position (whether center or PF) where you pretty much have to play defense and rebound if you want to help your team win. And as we've pointed out, his scoring isn't nearly at a level where you can ignore his defense and rebounding.

    So what do you have? A guy who simply isn't worth the trouble people seem to be going through to try and fit him in.
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I just checked on 82games, and during Bosh's last year with the Raps, he had a better DRtg playing center alongside Bargnani but Bargnani had the worst DRtg play alongside Bosh as a PF, but he has the a better DRtg when playing Center alongside Bosh as a PF. Im confused.
    How they were able to determine which position either one was playing is beyond me. I think it's almost arbitrary, so I don't think it means much.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    People don't compare him to other 7 footers as much as they simply compare him to other big men. And the reason they do that is that many (including myself) feel that there are some absolute minimums of what big men NEED to be able to do in order not to be a detriment to the team, and Bargnani doesn't do those things. It's kind of like getting a PG who is a horrible passer.

    There are two many people who want to say that Bargnani's role isn't to play defense and rebound, but to score. The problem is he plays a position (whether center or PF) where you pretty much have to play defense and rebound if you want to help your team win. And as we've pointed out, his scoring isn't nearly at a level where you can ignore his defense and rebounding.

    So what do you have? A guy who simply isn't worth the trouble people seem to be going through to try and fit him in.
    Agree.

    Im just saying that its two-fold, some choose to compare him to Dirk, some choose to compare him to other big men. Whichever fits their argument.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I just checked on 82games, and during Bosh's last year with the Raps, he had a better DRtg playing center alongside Bargnani but Bargnani had the worst DRtg play alongside Bosh as a PF, but he has the a better DRtg when playing Center alongside Bosh as a PF. Im confused.
    I'm looking at a body of work which covers a much bigger sample. You can look at where they were best or worst at certain positions, but when you look at their career it doesn't paint a pretty picture of Andrea's defensive influence not only on his teammates but on the team as a whole.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think Apollo meant more talented offensively.
    so did I.

    Channing Frye is a better rebounder and defender than Bargnani (that is not a compliment to Frye). He is also a better 3pt shooter than Bargnani.

    Bargnani has alot more (general) 'talent' than Frye. (ie. is a better penetrator, has a better post game has more offensive diversity ) But in the end just does the same thing Frye does. Takes alot of jumpshots. Bargnani just gets to do it more often and uses more jab steps.

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    so did I.

    Channing Frye is a better rebounder and defender than Bargnani (that is not a compliment to Frye). He is also a better 3pt shooter than Bargnani.

    Bargnani has alot more (general) 'talent' than Frye. (ie. is a better penetrator, has a better post game has more offensive diversity ) But in the end just does the same thing Frye does. Takes alot of jumpshots. Bargnani just gets to do it more often and uses more jab steps.
    The question is which player helps your team more. Bargnani, for all his talent, doesn't seem to actually help his team win very much. Frye has a better Simple Rating (Bargnani, Frye), and better career Win Share ratings (Bargnani, Frye). To me, that's what it boils down to. Who cares what a guy CAN do. It's what he DOES do that matters.
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    To this

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Again, I've never, ever judged Bargnani as an All-Star, but he only does one thing at an acceptable level: score. He's a poor defender, rebounder, and doesn't do any of the little things that role players must learn how to do. He's a scorer. That's it. That's the only positive thing he brings. And the problem is that he's not an efficient scorer. So his one strength is unfortunately not as good as it seems on the surface. Some people act as if all points are equal. They're not.
    and this

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    yet if Bargnani's scoring isn't 'elite' or special or all-star worthy... what exactly does he bring to the table? Why not try and replace him with someone else whose offense also isn't elite or all-star worthy but is also able to/willing to rebound and defend?
    I reply by quoting myself

    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    There doesn't seem a lot wrong or poor here, except that some people are now thinking about the reply "But if he's average on offense, but below average on defense, that means we were right after all?" which would be taking things out of context again, but I'm not going to bet against this happening...
    The point of my initial reply on this subject was that Bargnani was being attacked for the wrong reasons; something he doesn't do bad at all, but at worst average, was being presented as something he was doing badly. I replied to those points alone, not to the fact that you should take into account the other parts of his play when judging him, which is something I am in total agreement with. It is, as is always the case in my posts in this thread, in no way my intention to make a general defense of Bargnani. It is, as mostly is the case in my posts in this thread, a reply to unjust critique where general feelings towards Bargnani make people say things which simply are not correct or at least way over the top.

    But somehow, when I try to make good points about specific remarks about Bargnani which are incorrect (in my opinion), there are always people who move the goalposts. It would be like always mentioning Amir's lack of range and his appaling ppp on Spot-ups (something like 0.79, really, 0.79!) when I would say that he doesn't rebound very well and am proven wrong. Now, that would be rhetorically bad, wouldn't it?
    Last edited by Soft Euro; Mon Dec 12th, 2011 at 01:15 PM.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The question is which player helps your team more. Bargnani, for all his talent, doesn't seem to actually help his team win very much. Frye has a better Simple Rating (Bargnani, Frye), and better career Win Share ratings (Bargnani, Frye). To me, that's what it boils down to. Who cares what a guy CAN do. It's what he DOES do that matters.
    We should keep in mind Amir Johnson WS% is 20% higher than Carmelo Anthony over the course of their careeers (.154 vs. .126). Please name one GM that would trade away Carmelo Anthony straight up for Amir Johnson.

    There are plenty of discussions elsewhere criticizing the WS measure and I won't repeat them here. You can always look in the forums of the other popular Raptors website for a brief summary if interested.

    Simple measures are typically developed to provide an estimate of a player who behaves within a certain pattern. The problem with Bargnani is he behaves outside this norm. I have a suspicion each team have their own (unpublished) model and have a much better estimate of an individual player within their system. The within their system part is also important because I believe there are any numbers of reasonable assumptions you can make as to the model. For example, what is the relative value of defense versus offense? Anything between X (the agreed-upon minimum value) and Y (the agreed upon maximum value) is reasonable but may lead to different conclusions.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    The point of my initial reply on this subject was that Bargnani was being attacked for the wrong reasons; something he doesn't do bad at all, but at worst average, was being presented as something he was doing badly. I replied to those points alone, not to the fact that you should take into account the other parts of his play when judging him, which is something I am in total agreement with. It is, as is always the case in my posts in this thread, in no way my intention to make a general defense of Bargnani. It is, as mostly is the case in my posts in this thread, a reply to unjust critique where general feelings towards Bargnani make people say things which simply are not correct or at least way over the top.

    But somehow, when I try to make good points about specific remarks about Bargnani which are incorrect (in my opinion), there are always people who move the goalposts. It would be like always mentioning Amir's lack of range and his appaling ppp on Spot-ups (something like 0.79, really, 0.79!) when I would say that he doesn't rebound very well and am proven wrong. Now, that would be rhetorically bad, wouldn't it?
    Now, I've always said I don't have an issue with Bargnani's offense, and I don't. I don't have a big problem with the fact that he's mostly a jumpshooter and that he doesn't really post up much. The problem, though, lies in the fact that when scoring is ALL he does well, then you have to take a closer look at it. He's a scorer, but he's not all that efficient one. If all Bargnani brings to the table is scoring, then he NEEDS to be incredibly good at it. He's certainly a good scorer, but is he good enough to be able to ignore his weaknesses? No, not by a long shot, in my opinion.

    With Amir, he's obviously got weaknesses, but he does other things well, so it's not a problem for him. He rebounds, defends, hustles, and does a lot of little things that help the team. Now, would it be nice if he were a better scorer/shooter? Sure. But is it necessary for him to be a big contributor? No. Lots of big men have played big roles on Championship teams with similar strengths and weaknesses as Amir.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Now, I've always said I don't have an issue with Bargnani's offense, and I don't. I don't have a big problem with the fact that he's mostly a jumpshooter and that he doesn't really post up much. The problem, though, lies in the fact that when scoring is ALL he does well, then you have to take a closer look at it. He's a scorer, but he's not all that efficient one. If all Bargnani brings to the table is scoring, then he NEEDS to be incredibly good at it. He's certainly a good scorer, but is he good enough to be able to ignore his weaknesses? No, not by a long shot, in my opinion.

    With Amir, he's obviously got weaknesses, but he does other things well, so it's not a problem for him. He rebounds, defends, hustles, and does a lot of little things that help the team. Now, would it be nice if he were a better scorer/shooter? Sure. But is it necessary for him to be a big contributor? No. Lots of big men have played big roles on Championship teams with similar strengths and weaknesses as Amir.
    exactly.

    If the team could sub Bargnani out at the end of every offensive possession and back in at the end of every possession it wouldn't matter (like football). He'd probably be a great asset (like a quarterback who you'd never ask to play linebacker or safety). But they can't so he inevitably has an impact on both sides of the ball. To date his impact on defense has been greater than his impact on offense leading to Bargnani having a negative effect on the team. The numbers breakdown is just showing where/why/how thats the case.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    So, your intent is to preach to the choir? A big problem with the Bargnani discussion is that most of the time it's ridiculously biased (and repetitive as their is no convincing people). Some people who are anti-Bargnani want to use everything aginst him and use every stat available that CAN be explained as something against Bargnani in total isolation of the total picture.

    I cant quite grasp the tonality of this. To be clear all I was attempting to highlight in the original one-liner reply, is that in Bargnani's full repertoire of game shots, and as the designated centre of the team, taking 30% of his shots from the 16-23 area (50% if you include the 3 pt attempts) is not sensible. It becomes even less sensible that when he is confronted with a defender he puts the ball on the floor, typically, for an evasive one step taking him just inside the 3 pt. line for the afore mentioned jumper. I find this terribly inefficient in the context of how the game should be played.

    I have also noticed that there are quite a few supporters of AB on this site....many fairly knowledgeable about AB's game and his history. I used to be one. I used to support him even because of the Euro sensibilty towards a team game which may have prevented him psychologically from asserting himself. But I have just not seen enough growth in his game and at worst I have become ambivalent because of the rest of the talent on the team. So, Iam unsure about which "choir" you are referring to.

    The rest of your post seems to me as an attempt to do precisely what you decry about his detractors...you are not discussing the totality of his game/"picture" (eg. rebounding and defense) either but instead focused on one aspect of his entire game's inefficiency (the 16-23 ft shot). Though, to be fair you were replying to what you believe to have been an unfair shot at AB on my part...when really all I was doing was hilighting one aspect of his offensive stats in someone else's post. If you wish, I can get cracking on his defensive shortcomings and discuss the total Bargnani...but thats been done before hasn't it?

    "Besides, taking 30% of his shots from 16-23 feet is only slightly more than some of the top teams average from that range. Atlanta 30%, Boston 29%, Chicago 27%, Miami 29%. Do you suggest they are all doing it wrong?"

    Are you sure there is a logical correlation between an individual's % stats (in one area) when compared to another team's? Taking Ray Allen and Joe Johnson (the comparably responsible long range shooters on 2 of the teams you cite) ...they have about 2 & 1.5 less shots per game from that distance and is about 25% of their total shots for each. One cannot blame the inefficiencies of other players on a team entirely for one's own....right? That winning teams are in line on a particular stat with a losing team or a player on that losing team should also not be construed as some kind of affirmation for that stat. The reasons for winning are complex and more than 1 stat. The point was that AB as option #1 is taking about 18 shots to score 21 pts. on a bad team. Anyway you want to slice it...this is inefficient. In my opinion that stat is a contributor. He needs to be better in certain ares than just average.

    As is usual with such posts, one tends to ramble. So I apologize. But to distill my own position on Bargnani: so far he has been disappointing. I have seen him play some very complete games but this has not been sustained. If it has been the team members or the coach etc I feel he has not tried hard enough to rise above the obstacles and change his game to complement the team's. He came in as a big man jump shooter and he has pretty much stayed that way. I believe BC is disappointed as well.

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    This topic about Bargnani is never ending waste of time. Somehow up here he's like Justin Bieber in Youtube, everybody hates him (mostly) but still talks about him. That's my outsiders view, no offense guys. Of course, this forum is to discuss, but I cannot stop being surprised about how you find new topics about the same guy and lets be honest, discuss the same topics just in another thought.

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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    This topic about Bargnani is never ending waste of time. Somehow up here he's like Justin Bieber in Youtube, everybody hates him (mostly) but still talks about him. That's my outsiders view, no offense guys. Of course, this forum is to discuss, but I cannot stop being surprised about how you find new topics about the same guy and lets be honest, discuss the same topics just in another thought.
    So true, so true!

    Im embarrassed to say, Im guilty!

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    "Sarcasm"

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    TORONTO - More than wins and losses, Dwane Casey’s first season as head coach of the Toronto Raptors will be about developing the talent at hand.

    One of Casey’s biggest challenges will be getting more out of the enigmatic Andrea Bargnani.

    To that end, Bryan Colangelo, the general manager who has invested so much in Bargnani over the years, aided his new bench boss by gifting him with a couple of sizable veterans to ride shotgun.

    Casey plans to play Bargnani and slight sophomore Ed Davis at power forward – which means they will spend a lot of time on the court with either Aaron Gray, Jamaal Magloire, or Amir Johnson, who doesn’t share their heft but can match up well with quick, athletic centres.

    Aaron Gray, in particular, will aid greatly in Bargnani’s evolution.

    PHYSICAL PLAY

    “(Gray’s) going to give us that physical play in the paint ... he gives us screening, rebounding, just taking up space which frees up Andrea, frees up (Davis), frees up our smaller forwards to play their natural positions.”

    Casey said Gray is “down” to a team-high 277 pounds from the 290 he carried during a solid playoff series against the Lakers last spring.

    “We’ve got to protect the paint. Last year we allowed too many layups without knocking people on their butts and hopefully Aaron and Jamaal will correct that.”

    Bargnani will no longer be the last line of defence, a role that never suited him. While a horrendous, often disinterested help defender, Bargnani is capable in most man-to-man situations.

    Anything seems possible in the heady days of training camp, but Casey seems convinced that Bargnani will finally show some of the pieces that have been missing from his game over the years.

    “(Bargnani’s) impressed me with his defensive approach, his rebounding. Now we have to transfer that into a game situation,” Casey said.

    “That has been his criticism and the only way you can do away with that is come out and perform as he has.”

    Casey believes Bargnani is also growing into more of a leadership role after years of being a low-key locker room presence.

    “He’s speaking up, asking questions. He stepped up in the team meeting the other night, said what was on his mind, what we needed.”

    Of course, Bargnani isn’t in the NBA for his defence, rebounding or leadership abilities. He was the No. 1 overall selection in 2006 because of his shooting ability and the quickness and mobility he provides which few 7-footers can match.

    SIMILARITIES

    It is clear by now that Bargnani never will live up to the Dirk Nowitzki comparisons he has been saddled with, but Casey, the former Dallas assistant who knows the ins and outs of Nowitzki’s game like few others, still sees similarities and will run similar plays for Bargnani that Rick Carlisle drew up for Nowitzki.

    “He’s one of the best shooters in the world and we want to make sure we utilize that,” said the coach.

    “I know a lot of people don’t like that (Nowitzki) comparison, but I know how those sets turn out and how they work. We’ll have a lot of sets for him. Inside-outside, because he has that great skill-set.”

    Casey said he will force Bargnani to improve offensively by doing things he has shied away from in the past.

    “Andrea’s next step is accepting the contact inside. Initializing, (being a) physical, post up player and taking advantage of his size in the paint. We’re going to run a lot of sets for him to get the ball to him inside that’s what’s going to help keep the other teams off balance ... it’s going to help him as an all-around player because teams can’t key on (only his outside game).”

    It all sounds logical. Doable, even.

    But others have tried and failed to unlock Bargnani’s considerable potential.

    There’s no doubt it will be one of Casey’s most difficult assignments.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/12...p-for-bargnani

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    Default Casey Sees Similarities Between Andrea and Dirk

    Here we go. I know that this thread will be moved in three seconds to the Bargs main thread. I know that the topic has been discussed ad nauseum. Here we go, only this time, the new coach is saying it.

    Source
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    Wow, hyperbole much? Casey says that he's going to make Bargnani run a more inside/outside offensive game, similar to what Nowitzki plays. Isn't that ultimately what has been the most frustrating thing about Bargnani's offense over the last three years? He's shown that he can drive the ball extremely well for his size, but prefers to settle for jump shots far too often. I don't see a single negative in Casey saying that he's going to force Bargnani to play that way. Would you prefer Casey to say, 'yeah, he likes jump-shooting so that's what we're going to let him do?'

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    “He’s one of the best shooters in the world and we want to make sure we utilize that,” said Casey.

    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...#ixzz1gS2VyRNe

    I'm all for AB and I wish the best for him...but what kind of kool aid is this? Nice positive reinforcement I guess.

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