View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #8741
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Yes, the world of X and NOT X, in which other options do not exist!

    I am more or less indifferent to this trade because I believe it's trading one problem for a different problem. I believe Chicago will have an easier time solving the Bargnani problem than Toronto Boozer's going forward but that's just my opinion based on volatility of stats. I am not a fan of Boozer but it's hard to imagine Bargnani is not just a distraction which needs a quick resolution.

    I am kind of sad thinking the accelerated rebuilding might result in Fields, Gay, and Boozer, three overpaid players. Yes, we are a better team but unless JV and/or Ross develop very quickly, I can see us having very little flexibility to help the team in two years.
    What are the other options with Bargnani? Amnesty is it - unless you count holding on to him for 2 years to trade as an expiring contract a viable option. Who is lining up to take him on? Get real here people. Bargnani has NO value.

    There is just $19M in committed salary in 2 years for 3 players: DD, TR, JV. Acquiring Boozer does not change that. So at this point in time I don't know where you come to a conclusion about very little flexibility in 2 years.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 05:41 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #8742
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    if this is the best trade option, I would be fine with doing it.. just wonder what ownership is thinking.. they might rather keep bargs or trade him for scraps than go into luxury for someone not named gasol if that's what they had their sights set on

  3. #8743
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    if this is the best trade option, I would be fine with doing it.. just wonder what ownership is thinking.. they might rather keep bargs or trade him for scraps than go into luxury for someone not named gasol if that's what they had their sights set on
    Probably that they need to add some talent to the roster and W's to the win column given there are supposedly games with only 20K viewers on TV.

    *EDIT*

    20K was incorrect but 141K is not much to brag about either.

    http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.c...egory/ratings/

    Good site to look through ratings.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 05:50 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #8744
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And if this is the only deal on the table for Bargnani, what other options do Toronto have to unload him?

    Chicago is making a basketball trade based on finances.
    Toronto is making a basketball trade based on basketball.
    Again, I just don't see why this wouldn't be available in the summer. Getting Boozer makes us a 5 or 6 seed next year(maybe?? a lot of Hakws comparisons, but CHI,IND, NYK, and MIA will be hard to beat for a top 4 spot), but might not even assure us getting into the playoffs this year, and even if we do, the Raps making noise this year (after a shit start and many changes) would be one of the biggest sport miracles in recent memory. If this is the best option still in the summer, sure, take it....

    Really Matt, I'm just trying to find a reason that this move is measurably better now than in June/July, or why it might not be available at that time??? and I can't think of a reason for either....I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....

  5. #8745
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    ...I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....
    The fans get to see a better brand of basketball? More butts in seats and more eyeballs on the tube?

  6. #8746
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Again, I just don't see why this wouldn't be available in the summer. Getting Boozer makes us a 5 or 6 seed next year(maybe?? a lot of Hakws comparisons, but CHI,IND, NYK, and MIA will be hard to beat for a top 4 spot), but might not even assure us getting into the playoffs this year, and even if we do, the Raps making noise this year (after a shit start and many changes) would be one of the biggest sport miracles in recent memory. If this is the best option still in the summer, sure, take it....

    Really Matt, I'm just trying to find a reason that this move is measurably better now than in June/July, or why it might not be available at that time??? and I can't think of a reason for either....I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....
    Just as we all continued to lower the bar for Bargnani on the court, lets keep kicking the can on when to trade him.

    Why is the move better now?
    1) Raps get better.
    2) playoff odds improve.
    3) worst case scenario the pick going to OKC moves in to the teens vs. 10.
    4) I don't believe there is a demand for Bargnani in the league. You'd have to be on crack to give up anything of value for him. He is not returning Millsap or Ilyasova or Smith. What is Bargnani going to do over the next 29 games to change any attitudes or perceptions about him?
    5) Since this is likely the best deal out there for him, then the Raptors get 29 games to get players working together in preparation for next season. There will be familiarity with each other and training camp won't be yet another "getting-to-know-one-another" event. To steal a famous BC-ism: "Hit the ground running."
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #8747
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The fans get to see a better brand of basketball? More butts in seats and more eyeballs on the tube?
    As much as we'd like to assume we know this will happen, there are no guarantees. All we can do is assume that because he's a better player we become a better team....but that's how you always sell a trade. BC also traded for JO and signed and traded for Turkoglu....Turkoglu was coming off maybe his best season even....Or to use a non-Raptors example....this is the second time in a decade the Lakers have a team with 4 hall of famers on it...last time they lost in the finals, and this time they're not even in a playoff spot at the all-star break. Those are very different results, and even the former was considered a failure because of their standards...I'm not suggesting this trade will backfire, but I think people are a bit extra-optimistic by the recent Gay trade working out so well ON TOP of the years of loathing Bargs...fact is, adding a 31 year old with an injury history (regardless of contract) is a risky move no matter how you spin it. Hence, I would not be in a rush to do this. I still don't see why it wouldn't be available in the summer, when Gasol, and FAs will be available, of course via sign and trade for us, but even in free agency that's not uncommon for better players. That might ultimately end up bringing an even better brand of basketball for the next year, or two, or more...

  8. #8748
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is interesting.

    But lets look at net total points.

    In 30% of Toronto's minutes played, Bargnani on the court has resulted in minus 77 points.

    In 59% of Chicago's minutes played, Boozer on the court has resulted in minus 33 points.

    Putting that in perspective in half the time on court Bargnani has resulted in a net negative effect of over double the points. So I VERY MUCH DISAGREE that 15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer.

    Boozer's results are hardly spectacular but he is still a major SUPERSTAR in comparison to Bargnani.

    This deal makes the Raptors better and adds talent. Wait to the last minute to squeeze out a draft pick if possible but, whether that happens or not, lets do it Bryan!
    Before you go mocking my sig again, take a look at what you're doing with stats here...

    That's all from me on this one. Your responses to my posts have started to take a personal and kinda douche-y tone, so I'm out. This discussion has never been worth that. I want Bargnani gone as much as most, but I'm not a fan of a trade for Boozer cause I think it's a sideways move *at best*. And I think that's where the real sticking point comes. I see Boozer and Bargs as equally "untradeable" contracts. I'd rather eat crow and take a lowball Bargs trade than take Boozer and have the same issues Chicago is having in a couple of years when you're trying to unload *him* at the deadline. By lowball, I mean cap relief and a pick, I'd go that low. If you think no one is willing to trade for Bargs in those circumstances, I think your hatred is clouding your judgement.
    Last edited by jimmie; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  9. #8749
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Just as we all continued to lower the bar for Bargnani on the court, lets keep kicking the can on when to trade him.

    Why is the move better now?
    1) Raps get better.
    2) playoff odds improve.
    3) worst case scenario the pick going to OKC moves in to the teens vs. 10.
    4) I don't believe there is a demand for Bargnani in the league. You'd have to be on crack to give up anything of value for him. He is not returning Millsap or Ilyasova or Smith. What is Bargnani going to do over the next 29 games to change any attitudes or perceptions about him?
    5) Since this is likely the best deal out there for him, then the Raptors get 29 games to get players working together in preparation for next season. There will be familiarity with each other and training camp won't be yet another "getting-to-know-one-another" event. To steal a famous BC-ism: "Hit the ground running."
    In agreement. Well put.

  10. #8750
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I'm really not a fan of Boozer, and have still not warmed up to the idea of him on the roster, however one thing that I'm fairly clear on is that any trade with Bargnani is going to always be a sideways move at best.

    I do not see a situation where trading Bargnani will land a lottery pick, an expiring contract or a significant upgrade in talent. If that can happen then Bryan needs to jump on it.

    My goal would be to shed years off the cap. That is why I'd prefer someone like Gasol or Okafor (neither of who I see as long term solutions).

    However if there is an opportunity to really upgrade the team then go for that, but I just don't see it happening especially when Bargnani's trade stock is so low and will probably never recover even after the season is over.

  11. #8751
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Before you go mocking my sig again, take a look at what you're doing with stats here...

    That's all from me on this one. Your responses to my posts have started to take a personal and kinda douche-y tone, so I'm out. This discussion has never been worth that. I want Bargnani gone as much as most, but I'm not a fan of a trade for Boozer cause I think it's a sideways move *at best*. And I think that's where the real sticking point comes. I see Boozer and Bargs as equally "untradeable" contracts. I'd rather eat crow and take a lowball Bargs trade than take Boozer and have the same issues Chicago is having in a couple of years when you're trying to unload *him* at the deadline. By lowball, I mean cap relief and a pick, I'd go that low. If you think no one is willing to trade for Bargs in those circumstances, I think your hatred is clouding your judgement.
    I showed his statement was factually incorrect.

    That is all.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #8752
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm really not a fan of Boozer, and have still not warmed up to the idea of him on the roster, however one thing that I'm fairly clear on is that any trade with Bargnani is going to always be a sideways move at best.

    I do not see a situation where trading Bargnani will land a lottery pick, an expiring contract or a significant upgrade in talent. If that can happen then Bryan needs to jump on it.

    My goal would be to shed years off the cap. That is why I'd prefer someone like Gasol or Okafor (neither of who I see as long term solutions).

    However if there is an opportunity to really upgrade the team then go for that, but I just don't see it happening especially when Bargnani's trade stock is so low and will probably never recover even after the season is over.
    +1. I'd do Gasol in a heartbeat for that exact reason. Even if he never plays a minute for Toronto. Same for Okafor -- great veteran influences, Okafor won't demand minutes or touches that should be going to players who will be here when the team is competing...

    These are the kinds of trades that bring back "value" without bringing back value, if you know what I mean.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  13. #8753
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    For me it all comes down to the great unknown, the actual market for Bargnani. If Boozer is the extent of the market, then Colangelo needs to bluff his way into trying to get a pick thrown in and make a move by the deadline. If there's enough interest in Bargnani that Colangelo has reason to think that he can swing a multi-team deal over the summer that will bring him back Millsap or Ilyasova or one of the other more desireable guys available, then that would be the best course of action. If Colangelo doesn't make a move by the deadline, then to me that's an indication that either the Chicago offer wasn't actually on the table as reported, or that Colangelo's confident that something better will come along in the offseason.

  14. #8754
    Raptors Republic Starter japetas's Avatar
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    From Rotoworld.com

    Sources tell Fox Sports that the Raptors have "engaged" the Sixers in trade talks centered on Andrea Bargnani.
    The Raptors continue to talk about Bargnani with anyone that will listen. They'd likely be asking for Spencer Hawes and some change, a deal the offensively-challenged Sixers might have to listen to. If they ever get Andrew Bynum (knee) back, having a true stretch four like Bargnani could conceivably be a good fit. We're sure to hear plenty of more Bargnani rumors as Thursday's deadline approaches. Feb 15 - 6:45 PM
    Last edited by japetas; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 07:55 PM.
    (Sorry for poor English )

  15. #8755
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Couple of facts not addressed. With Boozer in town, how will the team be able to afford signing Lowry's extension. Also, what does Boozer's arrival mean for Amir? Back to the bench?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  16. #8756
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Again, I just don't see why this wouldn't be available in the summer. Getting Boozer makes us a 5 or 6 seed next year(maybe?? a lot of Hakws comparisons, but CHI,IND, NYK, and MIA will be hard to beat for a top 4 spot), but might not even assure us getting into the playoffs this year, and even if we do, the Raps making noise this year (after a shit start and many changes) would be one of the biggest sport miracles in recent memory. If this is the best option still in the summer, sure, take it....
    Really Matt, I'm just trying to find a reason that this move is measurably better now than in June/July, or why it might not be available at that time??? and I can't think of a reason for either....I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....
    I mentioned this before, but with the feb 21 deadline to get under the tax, the bulls aren't going to make this trade in the summer when that incentive is gone.

  17. #8757
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    I mentioned this before, but with the feb 21 deadline to get under the tax, the bulls aren't going to make this trade in the summer when that incentive is gone.
    It's gone for this season...Boozer's contract will still be a burden to them moving forward. They dont have any big deals expiring, and Gibson's extension kicking in brings them up to almost where they are now with a full roster, but with only 9 spots filled next season. I don't know what all the new cap rules are like, but if they need to cut payroll, which seems likely, this is still the best way for them to do it if they don't want to part with Noah, Gibson, Deng or Rose.
    *Of those 9 for next year on CHI's roster, hoopshype salaries has it as a team option, hoopsworld as non-guaranteed...dont' know which it is.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Feb 15th, 2013 at 09:49 PM.

  18. #8758
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    So, down the line, why are we helping Chicago again (a division opponent mind you)? I'm wondering if we're thinking with our hearts (trade Bargnani) or our head (don't help out Chicago and use our flexibility for future competitiveness).
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  19. #8759
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    Because Chicago (not a div opponent but i assume you meant conference) is making this trade for financial reasons rather than competitive reasons (at least on the surface). We aren't giving them cap space that they can use to sign a major free agent. At best it'll give them enough cap space to use the full MLE. We help out their pocketbooks they help our roster. For us as Toronto fans, that's a win. If we can get a draft pick out of it (preferably that Charlotte protected), even better.

    If we've got ownership willing to spend into the tax, we can use that to our advantage to acquire guys who are talented but overpaid, and then retain those guys under bird rights in the new, fiscally tighter nba. There's a rare window right now to execute that strategy. I'm not saying it's a great strategy, but I can see the logic in it.

  20. #8760
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    As far as I can see, we have been getting beat up on the boards and teams have been scoring in the paint at will. I know for a fact that Boozer addresses the rebounding situation, he also can't be a worse team defender than Bargnani. He certainly shows more balls and emotion than Primo. I really don't care about the cap situation as much. After all, all that money Rogers has been ripped me will be put to use on the Raptors at least. And that $5 M difference in contracts per year .... Kleiza makes $5 M. Those are the type of guys we find in free agency.

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