View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9181
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Millsap.

    If I had to choose, it's Boozer. Not injury-prone, consistent, vocal, post presence. Contract is longer though, and also past prime.

  2. #9182
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    The choice is between Gasol's contract Vs Boozer the player. I've always liked Boozer but considering the early financial relief Toronto will get, I prefer Gasol. `Would the Lakers be interested`is the big question and unless Toronto adds attractive assets they would not take Bargnani.
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  3. #9183
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    The choice is between Gasol's contract Vs Boozer the player. I've always liked Boozer but considering the early financial relief Toronto will get, I prefer Gasol. `Would the Lakers be interested`is the big question and unless Toronto adds attractive assets they would not take Bargnani.
    For a Boozer deal though, likely we wouldn't have to include a player like Derozan, meaning we keep most of our core intact. Unlike the Lakers who will probably be looking to add youth in any fashion, (Bargnani alone is not going to get the trade done, because LA is willing to spend vs./unlike Chicago) meaning giving up a player like Ross/Derozan, etc.

  4. #9184
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    For a Boozer deal though, likely we wouldn't have to include a player like Derozan, meaning we keep most of our core intact. Unlike the Lakers who will probably be looking to add youth in any fashion, (Bargnani alone is not going to get the trade done, because LA is willing to spend vs./unlike Chicago) meaning giving up a player like Ross/Derozan, etc.
    I agree. It`ll cost less to get Boozer.
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  5. #9185
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Gasol because he gives you a $20 M expiring contract which can be converted into other pieces at deadline. He can also play at the 5 position where as Boozer cannot.

    But I'd prefer Boozer if the only piece going the other way is Bargnani & possibly a small filler (not any of our 'core' guys). I'm not sure if that's going to be plausible this off season. But perhaps a John Lucas + Andrea Bargnani for Carlos Boozer is something I can live with.

    I feel that to get Gasol (as an expiring), you would have to give up DeRozan + Bargnani, which I can personally live with, but I just prefer giving up Lucas instead.

    Is still leaves you the option of trading DeRozan for another piece or keep him and bank on organic growth within.
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  6. #9186
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    Gasol because he gives you a $20 M expiring contract which can be converted into other pieces at deadline. He can also play at the 5 position where as Boozer cannot.

    But I'd prefer Boozer if the only piece going the other way is Bargnani & possibly a small filler (not any of our 'core' guys). I'm not sure if that's going to be plausible this off season. But perhaps a John Lucas + Andrea Bargnani for Carlos Boozer is something I can live with.

    I feel that to get Gasol (as an expiring), you would have to give up DeRozan + Bargnani, which I can personally live with, but I just prefer giving up Lucas instead.

    Is still leaves you the option of trading DeRozan for another piece or keep him and bank on organic growth within.
    A reason why I feel that Bargnani + Derozan for Gasol trade is total fleece, is the fact that it can be offered/discussed upon for Paul Millsap. Millsap in my opinion is better than both right now, and definitely a guy who you can call a "core" piece for 3-4 years, instead of a short term answer.

    It's hard to give up the chance on $20 million dollars expiring within the next season, but the fact that Toronto will still be over cap is alone, not enough for me to give up Derozan. Financial flexibility is obviously key in the NBA now with the collective bargaining agreement, but if you're going to give up talent, it should be for something/someone of equal talent, and equal frame of contributions. Both Gasol and Boozer are too short sighted, but the reason again I fall with Boozer, is he is still a CONSISTENT contributor, and addresses an issue of needing toughness or lack thereof, not to mention less injury-prone.

    If Derozan is traded, than everything in return has to surround potential, future, current capabilities, and finance i.e prospect/proven young player. Not "a guy that can help us get to the playoffs".

  7. #9187
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    A reason why I feel that Bargnani + Derozan for Gasol trade is total fleece, is the fact that it can be offered/discussed upon for Paul Millsap. Millsap in my opinion is better than both right now, and definitely a guy who you can call a "core" piece for 3-4 years, instead of a short term answer.

    It's hard to give up the chance on $20 million dollars expiring within the next season, but the fact that Toronto will still be over cap is alone, not enough for me to give up Derozan. Financial flexibility is obviously key in the NBA now with the collective bargaining agreement, but if you're going to give up talent, it should be for something/someone of equal talent, and equal frame of contributions. Both Gasol and Boozer are too short sighted, but the reason again I fall with Boozer, is he is still a CONSISTENT contributor, and addresses an issue of needing toughness or lack thereof, not to mention less injury-prone.

    If Derozan is traded, than everything in return has to surround potential, future, current capabilities, and finance i.e prospect/proven young player. Not "a guy that can help us get to the playoffs".
    I agree with the notion that we're giving up DeRozan for "financial relief" is not a good way of managing assets -- which is why the only way I would give up DeRozan along with Bargnani for Gasol is if the Lakers include their 2014 draft pick. Anything less, I will not take.

    With regards to Millsap, I'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, he simply knows how to ball. He can take smaller guys on the block. Against bigger guys, he has enough skill to use his quickness to get around them. He can pass, has a knack for steals, moves well without the ball, etc. He brings a lot to the table.

    On the other end, his size is definitely a concern. The older he gets, the slower he will be. I'm not sure whether it will affect his ability to play inside but I am quite certain it will affect his ability to defend. I'm also almost certain that he will be highly coveted by teams such as Cleveland & Houston and I'm not sure DeRozan @ $10 M will be that beneficial for Utah.

    I guess offensively, he's a great option. He can play inside and out. Defensively, he doesn't provide the rim presence for me to necessarily want him as a core piece. But I would take him over Big Al any day.
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  8. #9188
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    For me I, I like what Gasol brings, both in his skill set and his contract length. His durability shouldn't be that big of an issue as you can limit his minutes. I also think he fits better with amir than boozer, a frontcourt lineup we would see a lot of. But I really like his contract as a one year deal. With either player I think we are a lock for the playoffs, but probably don't get out of the first round. Gasol, allows some financial flexibility next offseason which may be key in getting a new GM.

    If we trade for boozer we can look forward to this cap situation in 2014-2015

    Gay 19.3m (unless he turns DOWN his player option, which I think we can assume he doesn't)
    Boozer 16.8m
    Demar 9.5m
    Fields 8.5 m

    For a total of 54.1 million for FOUR players. This scenario, assumes that we've let Lowry walk for free at the end of next year.

    We also haven't included any of our TEAM options
    Amir 7 mill
    Jonas 3.7 mil
    Ross 2.8 mil
    Acy .9 mil

    I think it's safe to assume that at least JV and Amir get picked up which is another 10.7 million which puts us at 64.8 million, and we STILL don't have a starting PG. If we DON'T resign Lowry, I don't know how we get a starting PG, since we can't sign one. So basically HAVE to extend Lowry (unless we've managed to draft a PG that we think can start). I don't see how Lowry signs for less than 6 mill (his player option) which means we are looking at a $70 million dollar team. That's $70,000,000 and we've still got between 5 and 8 roster spots to fill. If the raps trade for Boozer, and I'm Vegas, I put the over under on Toronto's 2014-2015 before tax salary as 77 million. If we hadn't done the Gay trade, than I think the Boozer trade could have been an option. But It just seems like too many contracts that will be next to impossible to move.

    I'd rather take gasol for 1 year, worst case scenario, he's injured all year and goes somewhere else in free agency, and we've got some financial flexibility.

    Worst case scenario for a Boozer deal is that we've got a top 5 payroll, are paying luxury tax AND in danger of paying repeater tax, and we've got a team that can't get out of the first round.

    Even if it means losing Demar (who arguably is overpaid, and if he doesn't develop some defense or a 3pt shot this summer, WILL be overpaid) Gasol is the lower risk move. I would also argue that it has a higher reward as well. If gasol isn't injured and plays well with the raps he may see it as a team that could make some moves in the playoffs and resign at a reduced rate because we've actually got a team that can compete and he'd still get minutes (on other contenders, [except maybe OKC, MIA?] he's likely coming of the bench and get less minutes than in Toronto. BUT as I mentioned before, even he bolts after the season at least we've got some money we can work with. If we trade for Boozer I don't think we've got ANY options to improve our roster, we can't sign anybody because we're over the cap, and we can't trade for anyone because we haven't got a single contract that has value! Starting next year, for the next four (4) years we've committed to paying demar 9.5m a year. Where will you be in April 2017? I have no idea, but I have a pretty good idea where demar will be. In Toronto, making a cool nine and a half million dollars.

    The new CBA is going to reward teams that are financially smart. I have no problem taking on other people's shit contracts (which boozer is) but we've got to get something back. If Chicago doesn't give us a draft pick there is NO way I'm trading for boozer. I'd rather have bargs be the first big off the bench for another season, and see if I can get a trading partner in the following off season.

    I have no problem swinging for the fences, I have no problem, going into the luxury tax or even the repeater tax. BUT for that kind of money you've got to have a conference finals team. And I can't see how the addition of boozer makes us a conference finals team.

    A trade for Boozer pretty much signals an extension for coangelo, because why would MLSE let him tie up all their money if they are going to bring in a new guy.

    I don't know maybe I'm undervaluing Boozer, or maybe I just think a starting line up of players who are all ball dominant and aren't good passers, is probably not going to over-achieve, and with a number of them being poor (boozer/Derozan) or disinterested (Gay/Lowry) defenders, my money is on under-achieving.

    Am I the only one who thinks a line up of

    Lowry
    Fields
    Gay
    Gasol
    JV

    Will get more wins than a line up of

    Lowry
    Derozan
    Gay
    Boozer
    JV

    ???

    Trading Demar and Bargs to the lakers>Bargs+filler for boozer.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 06:26 AM.
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  9. #9189
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Marc J Spears: Bargnani is gone. I do not see him going back to Toronto unless he's a visitor. Keep an eye on teams like Chicago Bulls. That would be a team that could be interested in him. Yahoo! Sports
    TORONTO RAPTORS, TRADE, ANDREA BARGNANI | SHARE
    There is no question Bargnani is gone.

    Whether it is Chicago remains to be seen. I do feel 100% confident that Chicago will be looking to trade Boozer this summer. If they don't, they remain on the hook for Boozer and by the end of Boozer's deal they will be facing the repeater tax. Boozer's last year is $16.8M while Bargnani will be $12M with his 5% trade kicker.

    I am probably crazy but I still hold out hope for Boozer and the Bulls pick.
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  10. #9190
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Boozer or Gasol is a good question.

    Either one is a clear improvement for Toronto. To be honest, I'd be happy with either. Both, however, have advantages and disadvantages some of which have been discussed.

    Gasol advantages:
    - contract comes off the books next summer,
    - upgrade over Bargnani
    - championship experience
    - does the lure of Gasol and familiarity of Toronto bring Jose back? Is that a good thing?
    - familiarity with McKechnie
    - A Bargnani for Gasol swap (no other contracts going to LA i.e. third team needed) saves LA about $34-$38M in salary and tax.

    Gasol disadvantages:
    - health of late
    - takes away from Jonas in the block - big concern of late in LA is Gasol not getting his touches in the post (Ramona Shelburne: Pau: "Kobe's telling me to just go down to the post and stay there and screw everything else" Twitter @ramonashelburne
    Read more at http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm)
    - Does Casey go with his vets (Amir/Gasol) at detriment of JV?
    - what other asset goes out to make salary numbers work? Bargnani for Gasol not going to happen 1-for-1.
    - no draft pick or other incentives for Toronto.

    Possible Gasol trades:
    Gasol for Bargnani/Fields

    3 team MIN-TOR-LAL possibilities with jist of it Bargnani/DeRozan out for Gasol and one of Williams/Ridnour/Barea. Roy's contract not guaranteed - sent to LAL.


    Boozer advantages:
    - one-for-one Boozer for Bargnani possible after season
    - upgrade over Bargnani
    - Bulls notoriously cheap, might a draft pick be included?
    - Boozer's contract ties in to major cap space clearing (as of right now) in summer of 2015.

    Boozer disadvantages:
    - $15.3M next season, $16.8M following
    - always health concerns with Boozer


    I am happy with either as the reality is Bargnani is a huge waste of cap space right now.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  12. #9191
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    If you had your choice for this current team. Who would you pick?


    Marc J Spears: Bargnani is gone. I do not see him going back to Toronto unless he's a visitor. Keep an eye on teams like Chicago Bulls. That would be a team that could be interested in him. Yahoo! Sports
    TORONTO RAPTORS, TRADE, ANDREA BARGNANI | SHARE


    Marc J Spears: Bargnani is gone. I do not see him going back to Toronto unless he's a visitor. Keep an eye on teams like Chicago Bulls. That would be a team that could be interested in him. Yahoo! Sports
    TORONTO RAPTORS, TRADE, ANDREA BARGNANI | SHARE
    I think this is the second tweet suppose to be here:

    Marc J Spears: Another guy I think it's Pau Gasol. Toronto really wants a low-post scorer. They were interested in Carl Landry. They want a veteran guy that could score in the post, that could get them in the playoffs with Rudy Gay next year. Yahoo! Sports
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  13. #9192
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'd lean towards Gasol. I think he's unfairly labelled as "soft". He rebounds, challenges shots, and does a decent job of getting to the line.

    He played full seasons last year, and the year before. If his current injury is a one-off, I'll take him over Boozer without even considering the financial benefit.

    Plus I think Gasol's game suits Jonas better from a teaching perspective. If Jonas can one day learn to play like Gasol, I'd be a very happy Raps fan.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  15. #9193
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Gasol.




    wait.. we're talking about Marc, right?

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  17. #9194
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Gasol, because it'd be a big expiring contract. But I wouldn't give up any draft picks for him. Bargnani / filler, thats it. I think JV is going to be a serious threat next year in the low post, so I'm not desperate to get either of those guys.

  18. #9195
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    bring back jose. then sign gasol.

  19. #9196
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Not sure how good of a fit either player would be in Toronto, but I'd go with Gasol. Boozer is a solid player and has been consistent through his career, but Gasol seems to have crumbled under the pressure of playing for the Lakers. I think going somewhere like Toronto where the pressure would be off him could see him return to his days in Memphis.

    I beleive Portland is over the salary cap and starting a youth movement. I wonder if they would be interested in trading LA.

  20. #9197
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Not sure how good of a fit either player would be in Toronto, but I'd go with Gasol. Boozer is a solid player and has been consistent through his career, but Gasol seems to have crumbled under the pressure of playing for the Lakers. I think going somewhere like Toronto where the pressure would be off him could see him return to his days in Memphis.

    I beleive Portland is over the salary cap and starting a youth movement. I wonder if they would be interested in trading LA.
    Not sure I agree.

    D'Antoni might have said it best:

    Ramona Shelburne: DAntoni on Pau: "earlier he was hurt..the system was screwed up & we were trying to figure out what we were doing" Twitter @ramonashelburne
    The last five games he is averaging 18 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists on 59% shooting.

    I think health was a big factor as well. Appears his foot is finally healthy.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
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  21. #9198
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Gasol.

    Compared to Boozer, he's a better defender, can shoot around the perimeter, better footwork and doesnt get stuck in the post.
    Overall, very good passing big man, expiring contract, can defend the rim and already played with Lowry and Gay, so there probably still is good camaraderie there.

    The only concern is the age, but i really dont see him as a long term prospect. Just get the Raps in the playoffs, get the attention of free agents and hopefully get them to sign here.

    One stipulation tho, Raps have to make sure he never ever plays for spain during the summer.

    But again, dont mean to be the devil's advocate but these two will definitely be bandaid solutions for the Raps. If they can get a younger bigman even if it means riding on just potential then id vote for that. Tim and the other tank-backers have convinced me that its time to think of the future. no more stop-gap solutions please.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 09:37 AM.

  22. #9199
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Gasol....better player all around. Shorter contract. More versatile.

    There's no way in which Boozer is actually better than Gasol, except that he should be easier to acquire.

    I see a surprising amount of Boozer fans in this thread...but why?
    -Gasol is a better scorer
    -Gasol is a better passer
    -Gasol is a better defensive presence
    -Gasol is at least as good a rebounder
    -Gasol can line up at both big spots
    -Gasol has won 2 rings to Boozer's none
    -Gasol has a better injury history, or at least not worse (just because Boozer's been healthy recently shouldn't negate that he's had far more issues over his career)
    -Boozer is not "tougher" or "grittier" than Gasol. Just because a guy has a wide body, does not make him a tough player. I don't know what evidence could support such a claim.
    -Finally, a shorter contract is better. Neither player have big odds of being long-term keepers, so the guy who comes off the books first is best so you can move forward with actual team-building (as opposed to bandaid measures). Boozer is a bandaid that is costly since your team gets frozen or 2 years. Gasol is not. One year and he's gone.

    I really don't see any way in which Boozer is better, again, other than him being easier to acquire.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Apr 11th, 2013 at 09:52 AM.

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  24. #9200
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    Bargnani fits better @ the lakers rather than the Bulls.

    Boozer has been the most consistent offensive tool for the Bulls this season. He has been a double double machine.

    It doesn't make sense to me why I, as the Chicago Bulls, would trade a diverse offensive and defensive tool for an inconsistent half-season player with no salary benefits.

    Lakers do not rely on Pau as a defensive machine. Their defense is garbage w/ Pau, but at least Pau can generate consistent offense, which is what we needed from Bargnani.

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