View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

Voters
128. You may not vote on this poll
  • A

    9 7.03%
  • B

    47 36.72%
  • C

    30 23.44%
  • D

    19 14.84%
  • F

    23 17.97%
Page 468 of 527 FirstFirst ... 368 418 458 466 467 468 469 470 478 518 ... LastLast
Results 9,341 to 9,360 of 10537

Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #9341
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If the Raptors amnesty Kleiza as rumoured and if the cap goes up a couple of million as rumoured then it makes no difference. The largest difference in salary under $9.8M is 150% plus 100k. Over 9.8M the salary difference must be no more than $5M.

    Again the assumption is the luxury tax goes up $2M and Kleiza is amnestied but with this happening you get the flexibility you speak of by amnestying Bargnani.

    At the very least I think Bargnani could return Richard Jefferson from Golden State or Ben Gordon from Charlotte. Both are expiring contracts and you get the flexibility for the summer of 2014 you referenced.

    As for more opportunity to go in to the tax in future years, not sure how that would work. Once over the cap you only have exceptions and the allowable differences in salary in trades to add salary. Bargnani's salary removed puts them at $60M or so next season and a full MLE combined with $5M in salary coming in on a lopsided trade doesn't put them in the luxury until you start adding minimum salaries.
    If the Cap goes up 2 mil its sitting at approx 60 mil

    Amnestying Bargnani puts the Raptors at approx 62 mil for the 2013/14 season with all options picked up, and at 49.5 mil for the 2014/15 season with all options picked up.

    Amnestying Kleiza puts the Raptors at approx 68.3 mil for the 2013/14 season and 61 mil for the 2014/15 season.

    So, as I stated before, using the amnety on Bargnani leaves them more wiggle room under the tax to make moves this year without exceeding the tax. This doesn't mean its easily done, but it does give them more room. Staying under the tax this year (with a little more room to make a move) means potential future years of exceeding the tax with a smaller tax hit. It also leaves Kleiza's expiring contract to make a deal.

    For the 2014/15 season (depending on an additional increase of the cap), amnestying Kleiza leaves them above the salary cap, amnestying Bargnani leaves them well below the cap before considering other moves.

    Toronto is offered more flexibility than they currently have by amnestying Kleiza, but not as much as they do by amnestying Bargnani both this season, and more so going forward.


    As for Bargnani being traded for an expiring, that would be great and more benificial than amnestying him - but that is also far from a sure thing.

    While amnestying Bargnani is not necessarily the best or ideal option (clearly getting something 'good' for him would be the ideal option) it is still an option, and it does offer more flexibility for the team (even if its small) than not amnestying him and/or amnestying Kleiza instead. Things do still change in Toronto's salary cap favor, just not as much as we may like them to.

  2. #9342
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have always defended Bargs, but I certainly understand the fact that most fans are "done" ... and as Colangelo noted publicly, maybe a change of scenery for both would be ideal. Just an angle to consider:

    As constructed TODAY, we have a starting unit of: Lowry, Demar, Rudy, Amir & Jonas (awesome)
    We have TRoss, and Fields as options at the wing off the bench; Gray and Acy as deep bench bigs, and JL3 as 3rd PG.

    Needs: 3rd bench big, backup PG.

    Is Andrea Bargnani not even worthy of a shot to try and mesh with this new team as a bench scorer? Maybe not, and yes - he was horrid last year, and yes he is not a strong rebounder or help defender ... I guess to me, he has a lot of the qualities I am searching for in a 3rd big: ability to stretch the defence, can play 5 in small lineups, works well with Jonas or Amir, has the ability to impact a game when your squad needs to change it up some nights.

    Why keep? Because I think the asset is at it's lowest historical value, and will rise.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  3. #9343
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post

    Is Andrea Bargnani not even worthy of a shot to try and mesh with this new team as a bench scorer? Maybe not, and yes - he was horrid last year, and yes he is not a strong rebounder or help defender ... I guess to me, he has a lot of the qualities I am searching for in a 3rd big: ability to stretch the defence, can play 5 in small lineups, works well with Jonas or Amir, has the ability to impact a game when your squad needs to change it up some nights.

    Why keep? Because I think the asset is at it's lowest historical value, and will rise.
    Bold 1 - this is a bit of an understatement. He is not only 'not strong', he is one of the worst in the league, if not one of the worst in history.

    Bold 2 - this was a sentiment stated after the first quarter/half of the season, and I'll say now what I said then. Just because something is at an all time low, doesn't mean it can't go lower. We've witnessed this already take place over the course of this season, and there is no reason to believe it can't continue going forward.

  4. #9344
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Just because something is at an all time low, doesn't mean it can't go lower.
    Sadly, this also applies to most of the stocks I buy....

    As for realistic options, Bargs might be one of those cases where you take a flyer on a talented, underperforming, meathead another team wants to ditch. After all, it can't be worse and it's not like you're giving up a player of value. There are always multiple guys like this around if you can sniff them out. All the GMs know who they are, though we don't.

    Problem here is that, from other teams' perspectives, how do you sell trading for Bargs to your fanbase? It has to be sold as an expiring contract, doesn't it? He's up in, what 2 years. Any crappy teams that are tanking fit the bill? Can't see a contender or even a playoff team trading for Bargs.
    Last edited by slaw; Fri May 10th, 2013 at 11:44 AM.

  5. Like mcHAPPY liked this post
  6. #9345
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,477
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    If the Cap goes up 2 mil its sitting at approx 60 mil

    Amnestying Bargnani puts the Raptors at approx 62 mil for the 2013/14 season with all options picked up, and at 49.5 mil for the 2014/15 season with all options picked up.

    Amnestying Kleiza puts the Raptors at approx 68.3 mil for the 2013/14 season and 61 mil for the 2014/15 season.

    So, as I stated before, using the amnety on Bargnani leaves them more wiggle room under the tax to make moves this year without exceeding the tax. This doesn't mean its easily done, but it does give them more room. Staying under the tax this year (with a little more room to make a move) means potential future years of exceeding the tax with a smaller tax hit. It also leaves Kleiza's expiring contract to make a deal.

    For the 2014/15 season (depending on an additional increase of the cap), amnestying Kleiza leaves them above the salary cap, amnestying Bargnani leaves them well below the cap before considering other moves.

    Toronto is offered more flexibility than they currently have by amnestying Kleiza, but not as much as they do by amnestying Bargnani both this season, and more so going forward.


    As for Bargnani being traded for an expiring, that would be great and more benificial than amnestying him - but that is also far from a sure thing.

    While amnestying Bargnani is not necessarily the best or ideal option (clearly getting something 'good' for him would be the ideal option) it is still an option, and it does offer more flexibility for the team (even if its small) than not amnestying him and/or amnestying Kleiza instead. Things do still change in Toronto's salary cap favor, just not as much as we may like them to.
    Sorry, I meant to say cap AND luxury tax. Theoretically if one goes up the other should as well.

    Also, with what I said about the trades the assumption is there would only be one big trade causing $5M excess salary to come in. Amnestying Bargnani would allow more than 1 big trade. However big trades are rare enough, I can't see the Raps making 2 - although I've been wrong many times before.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #9346
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,193
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    But he wouldn't be leaving $10 million on the table because he could get paid one years worth of his salary (for example) and then pick up another lucrative contract somewhere else for this coming season and going forward. He stands to possibly make more money if he heads to Europe and get a multi year contract.

    If the Raptors don't want to amnesty him and decide to play hardball to try and force him into a buy out this could become a Marbury/Tinsley situation where Bargnani rots on the bench. Does he want to put up with that when he can agree to a buyout and then make more money playing for a team in Europe?

  8. #9347
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,938
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Buying him out makes absolutely zero sense. They'd still have his salary count to their payroll, and thus it doesn't help the cap situation at all. The only way to eliminate a player's caphit is to amnesty him. It also has the added bonus that if/when he's picked up after being amnestied, his new salary is deducted from what the team has to keep paying him.

    If they buy him out, he has full power to force them to pay him everything they owe him. If his value is at an all-time low, it can't hurt him more to keep rotting on the bench. And the team can't win the public perception battle since they have the ability to use the amnesty provision on him...so it's nothing like a Marbury/Tinsley situation, because for them they were easily painted as "cancers" who refused to do what's in the best interest of both parties. But for Bargnani, they can't be like "we want him gone, but he won't agree on a buyout" because he'll just say "amnesty me and everything's solved. I get paid, you free up cap flexibility, and you save money depending on my new contract". Trying to buy him out will end very badly for how players around the league perceive the franchise (as if that needs to take another hit), regardless of the fact that Bargnani's involved.

  9. #9348
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    837
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It hurts my brain so much....I can't take it...owwwwwww
    Tenforthewin has been criticised for posting posts and disappearing. His lack of participation which irked people is now changing and people have a problem with that too. The only way he will be accepted is if he posts matter that people agree with. Sad indeed.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  10. #9349
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,315
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Whatever we do with Bargs, it should at least provide us with some flexibility going forward. I really want to see him gone, so waiting is the last thing I want to do. However, in the absence a a sensible trade, I wonder if waiting to move him as an expiring contract after next season would be better than the amnesty now option? I am by no means considering that his value may improve, only that Bargs as an expiring contract would be more appealing to other GMs next deadline/offseason than this summer. If anyone out there could speak to this, I would appreciate it. I have been reading up, but frankly I have limited understanding of the CBA and caps and holds and amnesting players and all that stuff, so I hope someone may be able to explain the pros and cons of a wait and trade next year vs an amnesty now situation.

  11. #9350
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    947
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    One other option is to use the stretch provision to buy out Kleiza, dropping his salary down to 1.53 million for the next three years, which gives you some room below the tax threshold for now, and yet still gives you the flexibility to use the amnesty provision on Bargnani next summer if things drag on and no trade emerges. Any advantage to amnestying Bargnani only really comes next summer when we have other expirings and additional flexibility, so I don't see a benefit to amnestying him this summer.

  12. #9351
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    338
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote [email protected] wrote: View Post
    This is one of the few suggestions in this thread i could see both teams saying yes to, though I'm not sure throwing in a pick would fly (might even have to give one up).

    I'd still prefer to amnesty him over taking on these contracts, though--Novak plays zero D and Camby definitely doesn't have many more years of basketball in him.

  13. #9352
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,938
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Tenforthewin has been criticised for posting posts and disappearing. His lack of participation which irked people is now changing and people have a problem with that too. The only way he will be accepted is if he posts matter that people agree with. Sad indeed.
    I'm not sure what your point is. People don't agree with his posts, not out of a difference of opinion, but because his posts make no sense whatsoever.

    In almost every one of his trades presented in this thread, the money was not even close to matching, often because he inexplicably was throwing Fields and Bargs together. He never follows up. He never learns and posts things that are more well thought out. He has been asked time and again to start paying attention to things like the CBA, at the very least, even if he wants to propose things that seem wild and unlikely for other reasons.

  14. #9353
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,315
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    As far as trades go, I don't want a return of a toxic player, a player with injury history, or another terrible contract unless it expires next season. Nor do I want to involve Amir in a trade with Bargs, but if so, the return has to be better than Lee. And if DeRozan was to be included then the return would have to be greater than E. Gordon. Amare isn't expiring, has injury issues, and his contract is about as bad as Barg's given his injury problems. The SAC deal interests me. I'll admit that I know little about the SAC players named, but if they can be of use on this team next season, then it works for me. This is the ideal trade scenario for Bargs in my opinion, moving him for small pieces that may have use on this club, or at the very least could easily be moved themselves. Like I said, I'm not sure if Hayes and Fredette are those guys, but if so then I would be happy with the deal. The Wallace deal intrigues me, but he obviously doesn't fit for this team and he has a longer contract...could we involve another team perhaps that may want a guy like Wallace?

    I'll come back to Pau. I know many think that LA won't play, but there were rumors so I don't mind bringing it up. Pau is a great player, he can help improve the team, he can help improve JV, he isn't a toxic player (like Bargs is as a Raptor), and most importantly his contract is expiring. Initially when I heard the rumor I wasn't in favor, because of his contract and age, but hey, it's a one year rental with the possibility of keeping him on at a more reasonable cost later, if all parties want to of course. I wonder what LA's plans are for the offseason regarding Pau, and if it is affected by Kobe's injury or if it will be affected by Howards decision to either stay or sign elsewhere.

  15. #9354
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,568
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. People don't agree with his posts, not out of a difference of opinion, but because his posts make no sense whatsoever.

    In almost every one of his trades presented in this thread, the money was not even close to matching, often because he inexplicably was throwing Fields and Bargs together. He never follows up. He never learns and posts things that are more well thought out. He has been asked time and again to start paying attention to things like the CBA, at the very least, even if he wants to propose things that seem wild and unlikely for other reasons.
    Trade Machine is an easy solution to this. Someone should tell him.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  16. #9355
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,193
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Buying him out makes absolutely zero sense. They'd still have his salary count to their payroll, and thus it doesn't help the cap situation at all. The only way to eliminate a player's caphit is to amnesty him. It also has the added bonus that if/when he's picked up after being amnestied, his new salary is deducted from what the team has to keep paying him.

    If they buy him out, he has full power to force them to pay him everything they owe him. If his value is at an all-time low, it can't hurt him more to keep rotting on the bench. And the team can't win the public perception battle since they have the ability to use the amnesty provision on him...so it's nothing like a Marbury/Tinsley situation, because for them they were easily painted as "cancers" who refused to do what's in the best interest of both parties. But for Bargnani, they can't be like "we want him gone, but he won't agree on a buyout" because he'll just say "amnesty me and everything's solved. I get paid, you free up cap flexibility, and you save money depending on my new contract". Trying to buy him out will end very badly for how players around the league perceive the franchise (as if that needs to take another hit), regardless of the fact that Bargnani's involved.
    yeah that's true. I was only thinking of how to get him off the team and didn't even consider the cap situation and it's effect. Guess I'm just all to eager to be past the Bargnani chapter. I get the sinking feeling he'll be coming off the bench in a 6th man role next season.

  17. #9356
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    But he wouldn't be leaving $10 million on the table because he could get paid one years worth of his salary (for example) and then pick up another lucrative contract somewhere else for this coming season and going forward. He stands to possibly make more money if he heads to Europe and get a multi year contract.

    If the Raptors don't want to amnesty him and decide to play hardball to try and force him into a buy out this could become a Marbury/Tinsley situation where Bargnani rots on the bench. Does he want to put up with that when he can agree to a buyout and then make more money playing for a team in Europe?
    The highest paid player in Italy makes under 2 million euros. Say Bargs became the highest paid player there and got 2 million euros per year. Thats roughly $2.7 USD. The raps owe him $12 million for 2014/15. He'd be leaving $9.3 million on the table for 14/15 even if he became Italy's top earner. Perhaps he could be a long term deal in Italy, but that deal will be waiting for him after he rakes is $12 mil from us in 2014/15

    EDIT: Check that, Euro salaries are after taxes. So factoring taxes, he'd be leaving roughly $6 Mil USD to accept a buyout.
    Last edited by NoBan; Fri May 10th, 2013 at 12:43 PM.

  18. #9357
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    837
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. People don't agree with his posts, not out of a difference of opinion, but because his posts make no sense whatsoever.

    In almost every one of his trades presented in this thread, the money was not even close to matching, often because he inexplicably was throwing Fields and Bargs together. He never follows up. He never learns and posts things that are more well thought out. He has been asked time and again to start paying attention to things like the CBA, at the very least, even if he wants to propose things that seem wild and unlikely for other reasons.
    When a post does not make sense to you, the way you respond determines the course it takes(such as this). A pleasant response invokes pleasantness, an unpleasant response invokes unpleasantness and ignoring invokes nothing.

    By saying this, I'm not saying that you have to respond a certain way. Who am I to say that? I don't agree, that's all.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  19. #9358
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    5,854
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Andrea Andrea Andrea. I'm not going to talk about my trade thoughts, because I'm not really good at it, but either way this LAZY BITCH must go. I don't see any potential to be the same decent player like he was before, not even off the bench. I think he's emit bad energy.

  20. #9359
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,412
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Bargnani will be traded.. and I do think it will be for someone half decent. I'm going into next season with no optimism but on the Bargnani front I will be shocked if he was not traded (amnesty I don't think is an option considering he's owed about $22M still).

    The poll suggested I create a trade that I would stand by. Ideally I'd want a superstar back (like Love) but let's say I have to be somewhat realistic. Perhaps something like a Bargnani/Perkins swap. He's been awful in OKC and Bargnani has been awful here. We could use the defense, and they could use offense (especially if Martin leaves in free agency).

    Or with Phoenix and trading Bargnani and a 2nd rounder for Gortat (who was unhappy there if I recall). Now they have a new GM and if his first move is trading for Bargnani then that's a bad sign for that franchise so I doubt that would happen.

  21. #9360
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    7,938
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Trade Machine is an easy solution to this. Someone should tell him.
    people have...it doesn't seem to register

Page 468 of 527 FirstFirst ... 368 418 458 466 467 468 469 470 478 518 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •