if you remember around the time that BC traded J.O., it was around the same time that bargnani was having his breakout year (offensively) and I clearly remember BC saying that trading J.O. was because of the emergence of andrea... and that it made more sense to start andrea and go in the direction of acquiring marion who was more athletic...
i remember this clearly because i also being upset because i had also heard bargs in a previous interview that season saying how much help J.O. has been to him, and thought it mite be worth to just keep jermaine to kind of mentor bargs.
i dont remember him ever even hinting that he made a mistake...
point 2 is tim you sound like someone who has played basketball or at least watched a lot of basketball, and i hope you agree that in basketball you cant have 5 weak team defenders playing at the same time... since bargs has been a starter he's had to help defend everyone on the court ON TOP of his man, because jose's cant stay in front of his anyone... DD in his rookie year was below average, turk was horrible, and bosh is one of the weakest big men in the league...
there's no other team that has weak defense at EVERY POSITION. i cant think of any young centre that has had to put up with that for such a long time...
if you've played basketball, and have ever had to defend the paint, you know that when some of your team mates arent horrible defensively, you can atleast not look over to that side of the court, because you have confidence in them... Who should bargs have confidence in ? poor guy probably has to look all around and get his neck twisted from so many vulnerabilities because no one else can hold it down...
you also said it made no sense to trade bosh in 2010, well here is another thing that most people who watch basketball know... it takes ATLEAST 2 years for teams without multiple all-stars to gel... example: ATL even with horford, josh smith, joe johnson, it took them close to 5 years before they were even decent.
OKC - even with durant and westbrook, how many seasons did it take them before they locked up the 8th seed in the west ?
in the summer before BC"s all star PF is about to become an UNRESTRICTED FA, BC brings in NINE 9 NINE new faces, and A ROOKIE COACH and thinks this will all just magically come together and we will be competitive.
there's no simple formula on how to build a competitive team, but on which planet does a team with calderon, DD, turk, bosh, and AB win anything ?
name one good team that has 5 below average defenders starting ?
finally you stated how BC has been good at rectifying his mistakes... first of all its very hard to rectify a mistake in sports because you have such a high oppurtunity cost that you have to pay when a mistake is made whether its losing potential draft picks, having to take on players you dont need, or not giving your young players time to play.
in what other profession can a person make mistake after mistake after mistake and still be considered good at their job ?
what if you had a business and year after year your accountant cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars, but then was able to recuperate half his losses every time ? would you still keep him ?
what if your doctor had prescribed you the wrong medicine and you had an allergic reaction and developed a chronic problem, and then your doctor gives you more medication to help treat the problem he caused ?
you also say thats its very unlikely for bargnani to learn to play defense or become a better defender, well what tells you that BC will be able to get the raps in contention ? he has no history of doing... the stats are ridiculously in favor of teams that have good defense win championships... but i dont think BC understands this.
i just cant comprehend why anyone would have faith in this man.
Last edited by karim_nasir; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 07:03 PM.
You could be right about what Colangelo said about trading O'Neal. I don't remember, but like I said, I don't really care. It doesn't matter what someone says. It matters what they do.
And I've certainly not been on board with a lot of Colangelo's moves, and I would have done a lot of things differently, but just because I disagree with someone, doesn't mean I don't respect what they have done.
I've never felt that Bargnani was someone the team should draft, let alone keep. One of my bones of contention with Colangelo is investing so much to develop a player who is so one dimensional. Of course you can't say Bargnani was a bad pick because he's arguably one of the top five players from that draft.
I never liked signing Kapono, another one dimensional player.
I thought he should have held only O'Neal and try and either trade him that summer or before the next deadline, as an expiring contract at a time when expiring contracts were actually worth something (unlike this season). Of course that has nothing to do with him playing beside Bargnani. Keeping O'Neal would have meant continuing to play Bargnani at the 3, which was a bad thing. Bargnani performed best when playing center, and if O'Neal was on the team, that would have been difficult.
I didn't necessarily agree with, but completely understood him trading for Jermaine O'Neal. After the Raptors got spanked by Orlando in the playoffs, Bargnani looked lost and far too unready to start, and Nesterovic was becoming too old to be effective. I wanted to see if Denver would have traded Nene for Ford+, but apparently Denver had no interest in Ford at the time.
I didn't particularly like, but understood the signing of Turkoglu. My first choice, and apparently Colangelo's- Trevor Ariza- turned down a bigger deal to sign with Houston, and there was little else on the market. If Colangelo wanted ANY chance of re-signing Bosh, he needed to do something. Turkoglu was a necessary evil that simply didn't work out.
Of course, I did really like HOW he signed Turkoglu, getting back Belinelli and Wright the way he did.
I liked him signing Jarret Jack, even if it didn't work out all that well.
I loved how he turned Carlos Delfino signing with another team into Amir Johnson (a player better than Delfino) and Sonny Weems.
I really liked his pick of DeMar DeRozan and was thrilled about him picking Ed Davis.
I loved Colangelo trading Villaneuva away and thought getting Ford was a great deal.
I thought trading for Bayless was a positive move and getting a 2nd round and Ajinca out of Dallas was good.
Being able to move Turkoglu for a productive player with a decent contract after the year he had was far more than I would have hoped.
I actually thought the signing of Kleiza was pretty good at the time, but of course I thought he would perform better and become another asset for the team.
On the other hand, I didn't like him signing Anthony Parker and Garbajosa with the cap space they had that summer, but it ended up being a great signing that helped the team win the Atlantic and changed the atmosphere of the team.
There are more, but you get the point. Colangelo hasn't done a great job, but he has done enough right that I would like to see how he reacts to the situation he's in now. Not using the TPE on an overpriced veteran that will win a few more games has been HUGE. Outside of Bargnani, I'm fine with the roster the Raptors have.
Let me get this straight. Bargs only seem like a terrible defender/help defender because he has to help too much and is always caught in noman's land? I assume this argument also works for rebounding -- Bargs only seem like a bad rebounder because he's trying to box out 4 people -- amirite?
How can you hate BC and love Bargs when BC was the one who drafted Bargs and is giving him all this leeway?
For the record I'm not a fan of BC either, I'm also not a fan of Bargs. I assumed that was everyones natural thought process.
if you have played basketball (or any sport) you know how annoying and damn rite frustrating it is when people dont do their job, and you are left hung out to dry... im not saying this is totally how barg's feels, but i kind of give him some slack, as it is a bit unfair to have to help defend on never be able to count on any of your team mates to stay in front of their man...
how nice is for perkins to know that hey he doesnt HAVE TO constantly inch closer and closer to the perimeter or constantly box out and look over his shoulder in any of his team mates direction because he has no faith in pierce or rondo being able to stay in front of their man, or to atleast prevent guys from cutting to the rim...
all of a sudden pau gasol is considered above average on defense, but did any of that have to do with him playing with Kobe (All NBA defensive team), Artest (one of the top 5 wing defenders in the league), fisher (old but dirty as hell), and bynum...
you think gasol has to look over his sholulder constantly cuz he'z worried the opposing PG is coming in for a dunk cuz jose clapped tripped and is now on the ground ?
it's more to do with BC not understanding a simple concept in basketball, which is you dont just score the basketball, you also have to PREVENT the other team from scoring.
the blame is on brian colangelo for not getting atleast 2 players who are average defenders.
bc was more interested in signing turkoglu and kapono, then getting pretty much wat every winning team will tell you wins them games... DEFENSE !
Anyone ever heard the phrase 'offense wins championships'? No? Wonder why...
And Pau Gasol was never considered a poor defender. Not when he was in Memphis or the Lakers. He struggled against big centers, because many felt he was playing out of position at center, but Bargnani certainly doesn't have that problem. In fact for a couple of years, when the Grizzlies were a playoff team, they were a one of the better defensive teams in the league and Gasol even got a vote for the All-Defensive team. The notion that Gasol was considered a poor defender on Memphis and a good defender on the Lakers is a myth.
I certainly agree that the Raptor organization needs to focus more on defense, but having teammates who are poor defenders doesn't cause Bargnani to consistently rotate too late, or not rotate, or be out of position, or turn his back to the ball, or fail to box out, or fail to prevent his man from deep position.
Having teammates who are poor defenders certainly hasn't hurt Amir Johnson or Ed Davis' reputations as defenders. Both of them are considered above average defenders. You want to know why? Because they are.
To some people who don't really know basketball, things like you mentioned might cause some players to look bad, but anyone who knows basketball can figure out who's a good defender and who's a bad defender just by watching them. And Bargnani, no matter how you look at it, is a bad defender.
how is this even a debate, There's no point to get the facts its all on the table, the game last night was just sad....when Bargs is not scoring he is just a waste of a player on the court we might as well play with 4 players because he does not conrtibute in any positive way. I hope Ed Davis is the new face of the franchise this is a player we need... It was sooo funny last night seeing Bargs getting POSTERIZED by McRoberts LOL I don't get you irrational Bargnani fan boys
Bargnani is asked how he gets beat on the boards.
"Being lazy maybe," he says. "That's the only reason it can be. I've got the body, I've got everything to take 10 rebounds a game. It's just sometimes I get lazy."
Well folks, here is one I thought I'd never see.
Check out the article here.
According to Mr. Winston and his advanced stats, Bargnani is an All-Star.
Really interesting read. I wonder how much of these 'advanced stats' the Raptors employ.
First off, let me be the first to thank you Seeten. I have been espousing Wayne Winston's mathletics on this board for a loonnng time and nobody would accept his statistical findings.
The connection between Winston's findings and Bargs' performance this year is irrefutubale.
Att: Nine New Faces, What What- this is what i was talking about. I hope we can all be friends now.
Great post, keep em coming.
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