View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    8 6.50%
  • B

    47 38.21%
  • C

    29 23.58%
  • D

    18 14.63%
  • F

    21 17.07%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #5521
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote fully wrote: View Post
    a
    the game i remember most vividly from last season is when speights from the sixers destroyed bargnani for 23 points and six offensive boards in 17 minutes. If you watched that game then you'd come to a couple conclusions a) bargnani was being targeted for his terrible defense b) speights came in the game confident and aggressive because he knew that bargnani couldn't guard him and c) bargnani is a terrible defender
    nailed it

  2. #5522
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If Bargnani is usually defending the worst frontcourt player, then his defensive stats will artificially look better because of it, so it will APPEAR that his defense is better than it really is. What matters more is how much more or less his opponent produces per their normal output. And although I can't seem to find it right now, I recall reading that he is very poor in that respect.

    As for whether or not he's as bad as his reputation, he's pretty damn bad. You just have to watch him to see that. Whether you murder 10 people or 50 people, you're still a mass murderer.
    I'm not really trying to join in on this, because I do believe Bargnani is a very weak defender (its his heart, not his talent, that is lacking.).
    But I just wanted to point out that, you're saying 'without being able to verify whether or not his stats are accurate, you can't make full judgement'; but then you fall back on your argument of 'he mainly defended weak players', and I have to say this stat or 'argument' is more or less completely unfounded. Do you have anything to back this up as 'fact'?
    Last I checked, a starter in the NBA is a pretty talented player. Whether he's starting at the 4 or 5. Bargs still had to defend very solid players through out the course of the year.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  3. #5523
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Sometimes guarding a guy like Gadzuric or Collisen(one of the brothers) Lopez(the weak one) isn't exaclty guarding a huge scoring threat. Yes there are good players but what I have also seen Bargnani guards the less scary player- for example we play against Denver - he "guards" Martin,not Nene. When we play against the Sixers he guards Speights not Brand. When we play against Orlando he guards Anderson/Bass whoever but not Dwight. This list continues to alsmot 20 more teams.

  4. #5524
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Sometimes guarding a guy like Gadzuric or Collisen(one of the brothers) Lopez(the weak one) isn't exaclty guarding a huge scoring threat. Yes there are good players but what I have also seen Bargnani guards the less scary player- for example we play against Denver - he "guards" Martin,not Nene. When we play against the Sixers he guards Speights not Brand. When we play against Orlando he guards Anderson/Bass whoever but not Dwight. This list continues to alsmot 20 more teams.
    But again, is there documented proof of this? We could go through and point out who the weaker player is for any team, but I'd curious to see if this is actually true. Because I very clearly remember him guarding Dwight this year. And Brook Lopez instead of Hump. And Hibbert instead of Hansborough. etc.
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  5. #5525
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    I might have to do some digging on that because I remember he to guard the better players only for a few possesions a game. Althought I agree with the article that he stops most guards from penetrating. I also agree with you that he is just a lazy pasta. Which actually makes it more irritating because if he didn't have the talent or the physical ability to be better defender we wouldn't be wining about it all the time. The sad truth is that he is capable of being not only good but a very good defender only ig he sets his braindamaged head to do so.

  6. #5526
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I actually appreciate articles like this because it makes Bargnani's stock look much better than it might actually be

    Perhaps we can some how convince other bloggers to write more articles on how great Bargnani is, and how he will one day become a future MVP of the league.

  7. #5527
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I actually appreciate articles like this because it makes Bargnani's stock look much better than it might actually be

    Perhaps we can some how convince other bloggers to write more articles on how great Bargnani is, and how he will one day become a future MVP of the league.
    It's not nice to lie.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  8. #5528
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Neither Davis nor Amir are below average defenders, and in fact are above average team defenders, so singling out the only weak link on the front line isn't unfair. The fact is that Bargnani had been paired with above average team defenders all season long and it never "covered" his defense.
    you dont become one of the worst defensive teams in the league because of one player

    don't get me wrong.. i agree with you on bargs... he is shite on the defensive end

    but pretending team defense wouldn't still be abysmal if he was removed from the equation is just delusional

  9. #5529
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    you dont become one of the worst defensive teams in the league because of one player

    don't get me wrong.. i agree with you on bargs... he is shite on the defensive end

    but pretending team defense wouldn't still be abysmal if he was removed from the equation is just delusional
    They'd be great if he was removed and replaced with Dwight Howard, which illustrates just how important the center position is defensively. It should also prove how disastrous it is for a team to have a clueless player in that spot.

  10. #5530
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm not really trying to join in on this, because I do believe Bargnani is a very weak defender (its his heart, not his talent, that is lacking.).
    But I just wanted to point out that, you're saying 'without being able to verify whether or not his stats are accurate, you can't make full judgement'; but then you fall back on your argument of 'he mainly defended weak players', and I have to say this stat or 'argument' is more or less completely unfounded. Do you have anything to back this up as 'fact'?
    Last I checked, a starter in the NBA is a pretty talented player. Whether he's starting at the 4 or 5. Bargs still had to defend very solid players through out the course of the year.
    I don't have any documented proof of this, but it's something I started noticing very early and taking note of. A couple of examples of this were Joey Dorsey starting in order to defend Dwight Howard, instead of Bargnani doing it, and Amir and Ed Davis defending Brook Lopez, despite being very undersized. In both these cases, Bargnani "should" have defending the opposing center, and was in fact physically the most capable, but didn't. And as I said, it's something I consciously noted after about the first month or so of the season.
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  11. #5531
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    you dont become one of the worst defensive teams in the league because of one player

    don't get me wrong.. i agree with you on bargs... he is shite on the defensive end

    but pretending team defense wouldn't still be abysmal if he was removed from the equation is just delusional
    I'm not suggesting that without Bargnani the team defense would have been good. Not with the majority of the team being bad team defenders.I'm just saying that both Davis and Amir are pretty decent team defenders. They are really the only ones, though.
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  12. #5532
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I'm very happy with trail of discussion going on here. Good work everyone!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  13. #5533
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    They'd be great if he was removed and replaced with Dwight Howard, which illustrates just how important the center position is defensively. It should also prove how disastrous it is for a team to have a clueless player in that spot.
    If you replace Bargs with the best center and defender in the league then of course it would make a difference. But if you replace him with an average/good defender then the difference would be minimal. Plus you're taking away his points.

    Im not a Bargs lover either, but i'm not all about blaming him for being the worst defensive team in the NBA.
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  14. #5534
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    For the arguments that Dre guards the other teams weaker big this is only relevant this past year. Remember prior to this year he always guarded the other teams best player to let Bosh rest and stay out of foul trouble. I'm assuming this past year with him being our best offensive player the same thought process was used for the game plan.

    Dre's defense is definitely something he needs to put more effort in no question. Like many have stated the physical tools are there it's just the lack of effort and concentration. Hopefully Casey can light a fire under him and help maintain that focus. As he's showed in the past at times he can actually be a good defender/shot blocker. Problem is it hasn't been on display for the majority of the time. Fingers crossed he pulls it together this season (if there is one).

  15. #5535
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    They'd be great if he was removed and replaced with Dwight Howard, which illustrates just how important the center position is defensively. It should also prove how disastrous it is for a team to have a clueless player in that spot.
    They actually wouldn't be great. Would they be average or slightly above definitely. You can't be great with your guards/wings constantly being beat of the dribble and getting inside. If the Raptors are depending on Jose, Demar, Barbosa and Kleiza to keep guys in front of them the D will always be suspect. I left out JJ as he can hold his own and Bayless at least puts in an effort and with all of the ankle injuries last year it's not fair to throw him under the bus with the others.

  16. #5536
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    They actually wouldn't be great. Would they be average or slightly above definitely. You can't be great with your guards/wings constantly being beat of the dribble and getting inside. If the Raptors are depending on Jose, Demar, Barbosa and Kleiza to keep guys in front of them the D will always be suspect. I left out JJ as he can hold his own and Bayless at least puts in an effort and with all of the ankle injuries last year it's not fair to throw him under the bus with the others.
    Orlando has lots of mediocre/bad perimeter defenders, but they can take risks because they've got superman behind them. A great defensive center makes all the difference in the world.

  17. #5537
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Orlando has lots of mediocre/bad perimeter defenders, but they can take risks because they've got superman behind them. A great defensive center makes all the difference in the world.
    I agree and disagree with your comment. Agree that it makes a difference which is obvious. Disagree with "all the difference in the world" as Orlando's perimeter defenders are not nearly as bad as ours. Not a good comparison as all IMO and I won't even get started on coaching which is also a huge component.

  18. #5538
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    this all brings up the question.... given that the raps are atrocious defensively across the board (with a couple glimmers of competence here and there).... would you rather see them improve their interior d to compensate for the awful perimeter d... or improve their perimeter defense to compensate for their Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flaling Tube Man interior defense?

  19. #5539
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    this all brings up the question.... given that the raps are atrocious defensively across the board (with a couple glimmers of competence here and there).... would you rather see them improve their interior d to compensate for the awful perimeter d... or improve their perimeter defense to compensate for their Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flaling Tube Man interior defense?
    Only a Raptors fan would settle for one instead of demand both - lol.

    To be serious and answer your question, as long as Bargnani remains, I would go with the improve the perimeter D. Amir, Davis, and JV excel at those at which Bargnani suffers.

  20. #5540
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Only a Raptors fan would settle for one instead of demand both - lol.

    To be serious and answer your question, as long as Bargnani remains, I would go with the improve the perimeter D. Amir, Davis, and JV excel at those at which Bargnani suffers.
    I agree that the perimiter is the best potential help for the defense. With Bayless inserted into the starting line up, JJ losing weight we should be slightly better without any moves. With that being said it'd be nice to have a Tony Allen, Battier, Affallo or Batum type off the bench to bring some grit/different look.

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