View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

Voters
127. You may not vote on this poll
  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
Page 167 of 527 FirstFirst ... 67 117 157 165 166 167 168 169 177 217 267 ... LastLast
Results 3,321 to 3,340 of 10537

Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3321
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    341
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    No!!! My God, this is the point here. Bargnani does not, and NEVER will score at an efficient enough rate to justify playing him 35 minutes a game.

    He's not just a poor rebounder, he's one of the worst ever. You DO NOT just ignore things like that.

    There is not being enough accountablilty for Bargs, that why Liston wrote that entire article, it's why fans are calling for his head. He'll have another nice scoring stretch, but the vast majority of fans won't care anymore until he becomes a passable defender and rebounder. He's does not do the necessary core skill for his position, whether he plays at the 4 or 5 he'll still get exposed.

    We can put freaking Dwight beside him, and he'll still get exposed on the defensive end.
    Geez buddy you make it seem as if every team in the nba has a shaq in his prime center who is exposing Bargnani night in night out. Bargnani is a top flight big man in this league and you are just ignorant and refuse to beleive this yet other teams know it and prepare for it.
    Instead of referencing an article from an outside obsever why don't you shed light on the fact that all star players such as lebron and dirk have raved about his talent, not mention all opposing coaches who need to game plan for him.

  2. #3322
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i wouldnt say NEVER. I think he gets a free pass this year, with him being the focal point of offense, unlike last year when he pretty much played off of Bosh. This year teams have been giving him more attention on D considering he is the "main" guy for the Raps.
    His efficiently hasn't taken nearly as huge of a hit as it should've with Bosh gone. He will never, never, ever score efficiently enough to justify his current level of defense (terrible) and rebounding (historically bad).

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont know if he's the worst ever, he aint one of the best either, lets just settle for decent, shall we?
    Hell no, Bargnani is the 53rd worst player out of 616 players 6'10 and over in total rebounding rate ever. Cut that list down to just 7 footers and he's the 13th worst ever. Make it 7 foot players that have played more than 900 minutes in their career and he's the 3rd worst ever.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    With this paragraph i totally agree. Instead of making him accountable for his rebounding, they gave him reggie who basically rebounds for him. But what he is now is what we got. plain and simple. most if not all the guys here are saying he's a lost cause when it comes to rebounding and defense, but his scoring abilities is undeniable. so get a defensive big to complement his skills.
    Trading him, and replace him with a good defensive center to play along with Amir or Davis and upgrading the 3, sounds much better than trying to hide Bargs on the defensive end.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i dont know about his statement. Rashard Lewis played with Dwight and they took that Magic team to the finals, and every year after they made it deep into the playoffs. Is Lewis a much better defensively than Bargs? I doubt it. Lewis got traded because of his massive contract, but if he had the contract like Bargs, im pretty sure the Magic will still keep him. He pulls opposing big men to the outside with his shooting, which allows Dwight to operate in the middle. Now defensively, Bargs is bigger than Rashard and any tiny, little-itty bit thing he can do on defense (as you guys point out he so bad defensively) will probably be good enough beside Dwight.
    Lewis doesn't have to anchor a defense, he is a better defender than Bargnani and the odds off us getting a center that defensively dominant is extremely unlikely.

    Bargnani's individual defense must get better if we're hellbent on starting him, no excuses. Put him with Dwight and he'll just get exposed on the perimeter. Run 1-4 pick and roll heavily to attack the defense. That's it.

    His good man to man defense from last year is gone. He does nothing well anymore but score, and the times he actually scores efficiently is sporadic at best. (Look at his offensive rating from game to game, 106 is the league average.)

    Again, the uproar isn't that he not scoring. It's because he's not refocusing his energy on playing better defense and rebounding more. Not only that, but he's shooting MORE and his rebounding and defense have gotten even worse. The uproar is because after 5 years in the league, there's no hope for him on the defensive end, barring an historically huge improvement the likes that we have never seen?

    Are there other bad defenders on the team? Yes, but that does not make it ok for Bargs not to be, and he's the worst on the team doesn't help either. But like we did with Bargnani we are giving the young players time to improve their defense. If in their 5th year, they don't show enough improvement, people will be all over them too.

    I'm done arguing about this.

  3. #3323
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    341
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Before his knee problem he was peaking at about 48-49% well above avereage .. His recent struggles obviously relating to his injury have brought his shooting percentage down to respectability.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    might be a little bit incorrect:

    bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
    kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
    durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

    youre probably thinking of:

    roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
    wall - 5 of 13 = 39%

  4. #3324
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,183
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    You guys lay the hate on too hard on Bargs. He is playing through injuries and the flu. He is also not whining and bitching about it like Amir and Sonny. Give the guy a break. He is our best player and we are lucky to have him. Where would we be without him? Cleveland?

    People that post on here about "Italian nepotism" like A-dub don't even realize they are making borderline/notborderline racist commetns that offend alot of readers.

  5. #3325
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    142
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

    "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"

    I would contend that there have been few "guys like Bargnani" who have been "gambled" on. He is not a Darko, Kwame or Olowakandi. He has relatively unique offensive talents. At the risk of revealing that I don't, in fact, follow the NBA much, or watch any basketball at all, even, I would hypothetically state again - you put him on the Celtics and I think he would be deadly.

  6. #3326
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,851
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    His efficiently hasn't taken nearly as huge of a hit as it should've with Bosh gone. He will never, never, ever score efficiently enough to justify his current level of defense (terrible) and rebounding (historically bad).
    i think without Bosh his efficiency has taken a hit. He's taken 6 more shots and 2 more FTs which means he's getting fouled more.

    Hell no, Bargnani is the 53rd worst player out of 616 players 6'10 and over in total rebounding rate ever. Cut that list down to just 7 footers and he's the 13th worst ever. Make it 7 foot players that have played more than 900 minutes in their career and he's the 3rd worst ever.
    i really dont know how to interpret this website, also says there Dirk is #70 so that means he's the 70th worst rebounder ever? and Rasho is 76th, so that means Rasho is a better rebounder than Dirk?

    Trading him, and replace him with a good defensive center to play along with Amir or Davis and upgrading the 3, sounds much better than trying to hide Bargs on the defensive end.
    i dont mind this if that center is able to compensate for Bargs scoring.

    Lewis doesn't have to anchor a defense, he is a better defender than Bargnani and the odds off us getting a center that defensively dominant is extremely unlikely.
    not sure how he is better defensively than bargs. ive seen him play, a lot. even during his seattle days and theyve always been a lottery team during when he was the "franchise player"

    Bargnani's individual defense must get better if we're hellbent on starting him, no excuses. Put him with Dwight and he'll just get exposed on the perimeter. Run 1-4 pick and roll heavily to attack the defense. That's it.

    His good man to man defense from last year is gone. He does nothing well anymore but score, and the times he actually scores efficiently is sporadic at best. (Look at his offensive rating from game to game, 106 is the league average.)

    Again, the uproar isn't that he not scoring. It's because he's not refocusing his energy on playing better defense and rebounding more. Not only that, but he's shooting MORE and his rebounding and defense have gotten even worse. The uproar is because after 5 years in the league, there's no hope for him on the defensive end, barring an historically huge improvement the likes that we have never seen?

    Are there other bad defenders on the team? Yes, but that does not make it ok for Bargs not to be, and he's the worst on the team doesn't help either. But like we did with Bargnani we are giving the young players time to improve their defense. If in their 5th year, they don't show enough improvement, people will be all over them too.
    yes, that is the uproar but IMO, you can put him to good use with the right players around him, wait that sounds like im making him a franchise player, let me rephrase that, his abilities will be efficient when he's with the right mix of players. Trading for the sake of trading is not the answer.

    I'm done arguing about this.
    you sound just like my wife. haha.

  7. #3327
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    244
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

    "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"

    I would contend that there have been few "guys like Bargnani" who have been "gambled" on. He is not a Darko, Kwame or Olowakandi. He has relatively unique offensive talents. At the risk of revealing that I don't, in fact, follow the NBA much, or watch any basketball at all, even, I would hypothetically state again - you put him on the Celtics and I think he would be deadly.
    Can't you put anyone of the Celtics and they would most likely perform better? I mean they have the players, the system, the history and the market...

  8. #3328
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    im just trying to exaggerate the fact that scoring is crucial, just as the same way youre exaggerating that defense is crucial. how about we flip it, lets say with barnes, battier, perkins or artest we expect them to defend, night in and night out, say with reggie evans, we expect him to rebound and rebound, but yet we dont expect them to score 20pts a game? i mean what we get from them pts wise we'll take, but theyre not "expected" to score. Cant we do the same way with Bargnani? i mean Artest is a SF, and lebron is a SF and he puts up 25/7/7 on a given night....same with barnes and battier....i mean they all contribute defensive and thats what gets wins, as you say, but should we expect them to score as the same token we expect bargnani to rebound and defend?

    if a team can get away with a guard not defending then if a guard defends extremely well, can we get away with a center not defending as much since offensive players will not be able to reach the basket considering your guards are extremely good defenders?

    im not being sarcastic here Tim, i just want to figure out how you would go about it if things were flipped.....coz i think we give way too much accountability on Bargs, which, if he is labeled as a franchise player then he should be accountable for, what if we shifted the accountability to other players and let Bargs do what he is best at?
    The thing is, though, I'm not exaggerating the importance of defense. And you're not taking into consideration that there is such thing as a player who is actually a liability at something (Bargnani with defense) as opposed to a player who is just not really good at something (Kendrick Perkins and scoring). You see, Perkins isn't a liability on the offensive end. if you give him the ball, he's not going to turn it over and he can score well around the basket. This isn't Reggie Evans who has trouble hitting a layup. Evans is literally a liability on the offensive end of the court because he's such a poor shooter.

    Besides, unlike scoring, defense is not something you can simply leave up to other players. As long as you aren't a liability on the offensive end, your man at least has to respect you. Shane Battier isn't going to score 20 ppg, but his defender simply can't leave him because he CAN hit an open shot. He's not a liability on offense. He's simply not a good scorer.

    Bruce Bowen was a fantastic defender, but Pat Riley didn't re-sign Bruce Bowen because, while he was a great defender, he was a liability on the offensive end. Bowen worked on his shot and ended up leading the NBA in 3-point shooting one year. Without that shot, Bowen would never have had the career he did.

    Dennis Rodman was obviously a superb defender and rebounder, and couldn't score at all, but he wasn't a liability on the offensive end for several reasons. The first is that he was such a good offensive rebounder that his man couldn't leave him on offense because he had to box him out or else give up loads of second chance points. Secondly, Rodman shot a decent percentage from the field. Unlike Reggie Evans, he's not going to miss a layup if you give him a pass under the basket. Thirdly, Rodman had a very high basketball IQ. He was an excellent passer and always knew when and where to cut and pick for his teammates.

    What you need to realize is there have been plenty of players who were not good offensive players, but great defensive players, who played very large roles (often as starters) on Championship teams. There are VERY few players who were not good defenders, but great offensive players, who played a large role on a Championship team. Why do you think that is?
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  9. #3329
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Richmond Hill, ON
    Posts
    1,970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    If Hibbert has a career night tonight, I'm logging in tomorrow for the fireworks!!!

    BTW, I just noticed that the Cavs just suffered their 20th straight loss. I watch a lot of sport shows and I have to admit, it hasn't been front and center (sorry no pun intended as that word seems to bring out the worst in the fans in Raptorville).
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 03:53 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  10. #3330
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    might be a little bit incorrect:

    bargnani - 8 of 18 = 45%
    kobe - 9 of 19 = 46%
    durant - 8 of 19 = 45%

    youre probably thinking of:

    roy - 5 of 14 = 39%
    wall - 5 of 13 = 39%
    You're mistaking shooting percentage for efficiency. Bargnani takes 18 shots per game (8th in the league), yet only scores 21 ppg (17th in the league). Efficiency is how many points a player scores per shot. And Bargnani is not efficient. You can shoot a low percentage, but if you get to the line at a high rate (which Bargnani doesn't do), you can make up for it.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  11. #3331
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Dont get me wrong here guys, i dont have a man-crush on bargs.

    If he were to be packaged on a deal that would get us John Wall or Derrick Rose or Dirk i wouldnt even give him a second look, but the fact of the matter is, those deals aint happening and for the meantime we are stuck with bargs so we gotta deal with that. love your own so to speak. and if there is a possibility that we can get those guys without including bargs then im all for it as well.

    i just dont fancy tags such as "worst" rebounder ever or "worst" defensive player.....when you think of worst, araujo comes to mind (yeah i really hate that guy). but Bargs aint the worst, not the best either. average or maybe a little bit above average.

    but hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. ill just rebutt it if i dont like it, hehehe
    There is overwhelming statistical evidence and opinion among knowledgable basketball minds that Bargnani is not even close to an average defensive player. He is one of the worst at his position, and one of the worst among big men in the league. He's literally a massive liability on that end of the court. I've noticed time and time again opposing teams focus their offense at Bargnani, knowing he was such a weak defender. In overtime against Milwaukee, Jack Armstrong even commented on how Milwaukee was trying to isolate Bargnani and go at him.

    And, per minute, Bargnani is the worst rebounder among centers that qualified, but even worse, he's 5th worst in the league among ALL centers, above two guys who didn't grab any rebounds in limited minutes, Jarron Collins, who's played only 23 games at 6.8 mpg and Fabricio Oberto, who played five games before retiring with hear problems.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...nters/count/81

    Stick Bargnani at power forward, and he becomes the 91st best rebounder at that position, or 16th worst, ahead of mostly scrubs who barely play, and Danilo Gallinari, who is simply listed as a forward.

    So that means that Bargnai is 172 in rebounds per 48 minutes among all big men in the league. Out of 192.

    172!!!!!!!!

    How can this not worry you?

    I'm sorry, but anyone that argues that Bargnani isn't a bad rebounder either has absolutely no idea what they're talking about or purposely chooses to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'm assuming these are the same people who argue that the universe is only 4.5 thousand years old.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  12. #3332
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    543
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im kinda all Bargnani-ed out. I went toe to toe with Tim W. in a previous post and i just got exhausted going around in circles.

    I dont think anybody here is saying he's the next Wilt Chamberlain (although he might be getting the ladies, who knows) but he certainly aint Araujo's big brother either.

    Fact of the matter is, this guy can score. But he plays lousy defense and a decent rebounder at best. Should he be traded? IMO, definitely not. You can pick off any bum on the street and give him a million bucks to shadow an opponent for 48 minutes and he'll do it, but you cant give the same guy 10mil and ask him to score 20pts a game, he can try, but probably wont be able to. Like i always say, get a defensive big beside him and he'll be fine. It takes talent to score, and perseverance to be a good defender, which Bargnani doesnt have. There are guys in the league who score a lot and doesnt do much in other cats (terry, crawford) but they still contribute to their team's winning ways. Like it or not, every sport, basketball included, the objective is to score more points than your opponent. When it goes down the wire, tied game and its your ball, youd still want Bargnani taking the last shot rather than your greatest defensive player.

    he's definitely not a franchise player, but 2nd or 3rd scoring option is what he is.
    Any decent player(even the ones in YMCA) should be able to average 20 ppg on 18 shots. People overvalue this guy's offense, it is not even efficient lol.

  13. #3333
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,438
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    There is overwhelming statistical evidence and opinion among knowledgable basketball minds that Bargnani is not even close to an average defensive player. He is one of the worst at his position, and one of the worst among big men in the league. He's literally a massive liability on that end of the court. I've noticed time and time again opposing teams focus their offense at Bargnani, knowing he was such a weak defender. In overtime against Milwaukee, Jack Armstrong even commented on how Milwaukee was trying to isolate Bargnani and go at him.

    And, per minute, Bargnani is the worst rebounder among centers that qualified, but even worse, he's 5th worst in the league among ALL centers, above two guys who didn't grab any rebounds in limited minutes, Jarron Collins, who's played only 23 games at 6.8 mpg and Fabricio Oberto, who played five games before retiring with hear problems.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...nters/count/81

    Stick Bargnani at power forward, and he becomes the 91st best rebounder at that position, or 16th worst, ahead of mostly scrubs who barely play, and Danilo Gallinari, who is simply listed as a forward.

    So that means that Bargnai is 172 in rebounds per 48 minutes among all big men in the league. Out of 192.

    172!!!!!!!!

    How can this not worry you?

    I'm sorry, but anyone that argues that Bargnani isn't a bad rebounder either has absolutely no idea what they're talking about or purposely chooses to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'm assuming these are the same people who argue that the universe is only 4.5 thousand years old.
    Bummer. No argument from me.

  14. #3334
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

    "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"

    I would contend that there have been few "guys like Bargnani" who have been "gambled" on. He is not a Darko, Kwame or Olowakandi. He has relatively unique offensive talents. At the risk of revealing that I don't, in fact, follow the NBA much, or watch any basketball at all, even, I would hypothetically state again - you put him on the Celtics and I think he would be deadly.
    Obviously it's opinion on both our parts, but I've got more history on my side. And I'm not referring to guys like Kwame or Olowakandi who were simply unskilled players who never panned out. I'm talking about guys like Charlie Villanueva who certainly have talent, and can give you points, but otherwise do nothing to help your team win. The NBA is full of those types of guys and lots of teams always take them on because they feel that if they can harness their talents, then they'll be a great player. It's basically like playing the lottery. Good teams don't generally do that because they don't have to.

    Talking about Boston, Nate Robinson is an example of a player who was a good scorer on a bad team, who joined the Celtics and suddenly his role was very diminished. Yes, he still plays, but not 30 mpg he played in his last full season in New York. He's a role player who plays less than 20 mpg. And if they had a better option at backup PG, they'd probably go with that, instead.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  15. #3335
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote coastal wrote: View Post
    Yeah, critical reading key would be "I don't think it will happen", which is to say, I don't think it will happen.

    "Usually, guys like Bargnani go to a team where they hold you accountable and sit on the bench [sic]"
    Also, I assume you didn't mean anything by it, but putting what I said in quotes was enough to tell people I wrote that. By including "sic" it seems like a shot at me for making what was basically a typo. It's as if you want to highlight my error, which I don't appreciate. For the most part, my posts are pretty grammatically correct, but I'm human and type quickly. Mistakes happen.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

  16. #3336
    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Halifax
    Posts
    1,670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    You guys lay the hate on too hard on Bargs. He is playing through injuries and the flu. He is also not whining and bitching about it like Amir and Sonny. Give the guy a break. He is our best player and we are lucky to have him. Where would we be without him? Cleveland?

    People that post on here about "Italian nepotism" like A-dub don't even realize they are making borderline/notborderline racist commetns that offend alot of readers.
    c'mon, man.

    first off - if you're going to be shit, then BE SHIT. fail completely, and there is then no misconception about who/what you are as a franchise. cleveland is in a horrible spot, but that actually helps them in the long-term, 'cause no matter how hard they polish the turd, it's still a turd...they know they have to tear it down, figure out what players have value as cornerstones of the rebuilding process (and keep them), and get rid of everyone else.

    now that TO is in, essentially, the same position (i mean, they have identical records over the last few weeks, don't they?), they don't have much choice but to commit to a rebuild (and not one of BC's infamous ('retoolings'). do i trust him to do so? of course not.

    oh, and the thing about how a-dub comments about the nepotism in place with this organization...STFU. it's not as though the nba is overrun with italians, so to suggest that it's mere coincidence that the five-year-fiasco that has been bargnani/gherardini's tenures in TO have NOTHING to do with the fact they're italian, and both arrived on the scene at the precise moment a man of italian lineage (unless colangelo is greek or spanish) took control...well, i dunno what to tell you, other than i have some land in manhattan for sale...you just send me the deposit (only $10K!!), and i'll get the deed in the mail tomorrow. you seem like the trusting type.

    btw - bargnani for allstar '11!!! FTW!
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  17. #3337
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Markham, Ontario
    Posts
    2,851
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The thing is, though, I'm not exaggerating the importance of defense. And you're not taking into consideration that there is such thing as a player who is actually a liability at something (Bargnani with defense) as opposed to a player who is just not really good at something (Kendrick Perkins and scoring). You see, Perkins isn't a liability on the offensive end. if you give him the ball, he's not going to turn it over and he can score well around the basket. This isn't Reggie Evans who has trouble hitting a layup. Evans is literally a liability on the offensive end of the court because he's such a poor shooter.
    See thats what im been trying to make you notice. Some people are just not that good in some categories. Even if defense is such a vital part in basketball, why cant you accept the fact that Bargs is just not that good in defense? i mean everybody is acknowledging that fact, but the difference between you and us is youre not willing to go past that and look at Bargs scoring abilities. When it comes to Bargs, you look at scoring and defense as something that comes hand in hand but when you look at a guy like perkins, as long as he plays good defense, you can get past his scoring inabilities, and thats what i dont get. You keep saying liability vs "just not being good" but isnt not being good a liability? i dont think you can explain that any further. if youre not good at something, then you are a liability. but the question is, is bargs liability on defense makes him a bad player like what everybody makes him out to be? IMO, no. Because he can score the basketball. Same with Perkins. Is he a liability on the court because he cannot score the basketball and only play defense, IMO, no. And for the record, Perkins is a liability on the offensive end. He has 2 turnovers for every 6 attempts. Bargs has 1.5TO for every 14 attempts. both evans and perkins are not scorers so they are liabilities on the offensive end, period. Also, liability on defense can be solved with a double team, triple team, zone. How can you solve a liability on offense? i guess a screen but if the guy has an awkward shot (except marion and noah), theres no cure for that.

    Besides, unlike scoring, defense is not something you can simply leave up to other players. As long as you aren't a liability on the offensive end, your man at least has to respect you. Shane Battier isn't going to score 20 ppg, but his defender simply can't leave him because he CAN hit an open shot. He's not a liability on offense. He's simply not a good scorer.
    i agree with this. and youre right, leaving anybody open in the NBA is pretty much a sure 2 pts, but the thing is, youre making out Bargnani as a statue-defender, when he sees a player hit the lane, he doesnt just stand there, he tries to challenge but he just isnt an instinct defender. same with any other player on the offensive end, give them an open shot, they will take but doesnt mean theyll make it, well unless its steph curry or reggie miller, with bargs on defense, he'll try to wave his hands to put a body but the other player still scores because he just isnt a brilliant defender. but on the bright side, he still can distract shots and is a wide body in the lane.

    Bruce Bowen was a fantastic defender, but Pat Riley didn't re-sign Bruce Bowen because, while he was a great defender, he was a liability on the offensive end. Bowen worked on his shot and ended up leading the NBA in 3-point shooting one year. Without that shot, Bowen would never have had the career he did.
    not sure about that, he's taken the same number of 3s year after year in his career, but just for arguements sake, if he didnt improve his 3pt shooting, do you think nobody else in the NBA wouldve still taken him? I think not. Some team wouldve still taken him BECAUSE of his defense despite his horrendous offense. Same with Bargs, despite his defensive lapses, he is still a good player, and his offense is what will keep him employed in the NBA.

    Dennis Rodman was obviously a superb defender and rebounder, and couldn't score at all, but he wasn't a liability on the offensive end for several reasons. The first is that he was such a good offensive rebounder that his man couldn't leave him on offense because he had to box him out or else give up loads of second chance points. Secondly, Rodman shot a decent percentage from the field. Unlike Reggie Evans, he's not going to miss a layup if you give him a pass under the basket. Thirdly, Rodman had a very high basketball IQ. He was an excellent passer and always knew when and where to cut and pick for his teammates.
    Im just curious, and i really dont know the answer, but besides Rodman, who else is a candidate, or is already in the HOF that is not, a double-digit scorer? I just want to know if the Hall, which is the highest prestige a guy can be given for his career, does give honor to just defense

    What you need to realize is there have been plenty of players who were not good offensive players, but great defensive players, who played very large roles (often as starters) on Championship teams. There are VERY few players who were not good defenders, but great offensive players, who played a large role on a Championship team. Why do you think that is?
    i do realize that. it has to be a balance of defense and offense, but, you just mentioned that very few players wo were not good defensively but great offensively who played a large role on a championship team, and if the raps get a championship then you will probably add bargs to the VERY few and then we'll all be very happy.

  18. #3338
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,438
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Also, I assume you didn't mean anything by it, but putting what I said in quotes was enough to tell people I wrote that. By including "sic" it seems like a shot at me for making what was basically a typo. It's as if you want to highlight my error, which I don't appreciate. For the most part, my posts are pretty grammatically correct, but I'm human and type quickly. Mistakes happen.
    [sic] was a bit much. Little bit too formal I'd say. haha Especially for something so miniscule as that.
    If we were doing that for every time we found a typo in someones quote, well.. .we'd do it everytime!

  19. #3339
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    You guys lay the hate on too hard on Bargs. He is playing through injuries and the flu. He is also not whining and bitching about it like Amir and Sonny. Give the guy a break. He is our best player and we are lucky to have him. Where would we be without him? Cleveland?

    People that post on here about "Italian nepotism" like A-dub don't even realize they are making borderline/notborderline racist commetns that offend alot of readers.
    I'm sorry, injuries and flu are not an excuse when your healthy, because even when he is healthy, he still can't rebound, he's simply put; allergic to boards.

  20. #3340
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    See thats what im been trying to make you notice. Some people are just not that good in some categories. Even if defense is such a vital part in basketball, why cant you accept the fact that Bargs is just not that good in defense? i mean everybody is acknowledging that fact, but the difference between you and us is youre not willing to go past that and look at Bargs scoring abilities. When it comes to Bargs, you look at scoring and defense as something that comes hand in hand but when you look at a guy like perkins, as long as he plays good defense, you can get past his scoring inabilities, and thats what i dont get. You keep saying liability vs "just not being good" but isnt not being good a liability? i dont think you can explain that any further. if youre not good at something, then you are a liability. but the question is, is bargs liability on defense makes him a bad player like what everybody makes him out to be? IMO, no. Because he can score the basketball. Same with Perkins. Is he a liability on the court because he cannot score the basketball and only play defense, IMO, no. And for the record, Perkins is a liability on the offensive end. He has 2 turnovers for every 6 attempts. Bargs has 1.5TO for every 14 attempts. both evans and perkins are not scorers so they are liabilities on the offensive end, period.
    Why can't I simply accept that Bargnani is a bad defensive player and move on? Because he hurts the team. Because I have minimum expectations for players, and one of them is to play, at least, adequate defense, because if they don't, it makes it makes it so much more difficult to win if you have a bad defensive player on your team. Because the way to play Championship basketball is by everyone playing defense.

    And you completely misunderstand what I mean by liability. Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end because he allows his opponent to play much better than he normally would. Is Kendrick Perkins a good offensive player? No. But how is he a liability? A liability means he actually HURTS the team on the offensive end. Perkins doesn't. He's not asked to score much because there are so many other scorers, but give him the ball under the basket and he'll hit the shot. He shot 60% from the field last season. It's really difficult to say that a guy is a liability on offense when he's shooting 60% from the field.

    You know who's a liability on the offensive end? Reggie Evans. You know why? Because he's shooting 36% from the field for the season. That would be acceptable if he was shooting mostly threes, but most of his shots come from within 2 or 3 feet of the basket. Most guys who are literally offensive liabilities don't play much. Remember Antoine Wright last year? He was an offensive liability because he shot 40% from the field, never seemed to understand when to shoot and when not to and wasn't a good passer. He actually hurt the team on the offensive end. And now he's out of the league despite his defense.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Also, liability on defense can be solved with a double team, triple team, zone. How can you solve a liability on offense? i guess a screen but if the guy has an awkward shot (except marion and noah), theres no cure for that.
    Covering a bad defensive player by double teaming or triple teaming his man doesn't solve the problem. It just moves it around. If you have to double team a guy everytime he gets the ball because your teammate is a bad defender, then you're leaving someone open. And if the team has to adjust to that, it means that EVERYONE needs to play better team defense, which Bargnani also doesn't do.

    Besides, double teaming doesn't solve him being such a poor team defender. Not even Dwight Howard will do that because teams will work to expose him on defense, no matter who he's paired with.

    And if a guy is truly a liability on offense, it's difficult to cover that. That's why guys like Antoine Wright are out of the league and why Reggie Evans only gets lot of minutes on bad teams.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i agree with this. and youre right, leaving anybody open in the NBA is pretty much a sure 2 pts, but the thing is, youre making out Bargnani as a statue-defender, when he sees a player hit the lane, he doesnt just stand there, he tries to challenge but he just isnt an instinct defender. same with any other player on the offensive end, give them an open shot, they will take but doesnt mean theyll make it, well unless its steph curry or reggie miller, with bargs on defense, he'll try to wave his hands to put a body but the other player still scores because he just isnt a brilliant defender. but on the bright side, he still can distract shots and is a wide body in the lane.
    Bargnani doesn't just stand there, but he is often out of position, turns his back on the ball far too much, rotates too late or over rotates. In the majority of games against well coached teams, I've seen them purposely target Bargnani on offense. On a team as bad defensively as the Raptors, the fact that HE'S the one they consistently target tells you just how bad he is.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    not sure about that, he's taken the same number of 3s year after year in his career, but just for arguements sake, if he didnt improve his 3pt shooting, do you think nobody else in the NBA wouldve still taken him? I think not. Some team wouldve still taken him BECAUSE of his defense despite his horrendous offense. Same with Bargs, despite his defensive lapses, he is still a good player, and his offense is what will keep him employed in the NBA.
    See Antoine Wright. Great defender, horrible on the offensive end. Bruce Bowen bounced around the NBA and never played a big role on any good team until he started hitting the three. Would someone have signed him even if he never worked on his shot? Sure. But there's a big difference between being a scrub and being a starter on a contender.

    I've never suggested that Bargnani was a bad player who didn't deserve to be in the league. He'll be employed in the NBA for years after his current contract expires, but that doesn't mean he'll ever be a rotation player on a contender.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im just curious, and i really dont know the answer, but besides Rodman, who else is a candidate, or is already in the HOF that is not, a double-digit scorer? I just want to know if the Hall, which is the highest prestige a guy can be given for his career, does give honor to just defense
    The Hall of Fame generally likes well rounded players, but there are guys in the hall like Wes Unseld and K.C. Jones are in despite averaging 10 ppg or less. Of course, that has nothing to do with our discussion because the majority of the players we are talking about, including Bargnani, will ever be in the Hall of Fame.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i do realize that. it has to be a balance of defense and offense, but, you just mentioned that very few players wo were not good defensively but great offensively who played a large role on a championship team, and if the raps get a championship then you will probably add bargs to the VERY few and then we'll all be very happy.
    Nothing is impossible. It's not impossible to field a team of players under 6'0 and win a Championship, but it's hard enough to win a Championship, so why make it that much harder.

    The smart thing, would be to try and see what other Championship teams have done in the past and try and replicate that because there are probably keys to winning.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •