View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3381
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    This is because his numbers take into consideration who each player is playing WITH and as well AGAINST.
    Bad teams have alot of Bad Players, and play against better players; according to Winston, the good players deserve more praise for still being good while surrounded by so much bad.
    Thats how I interpret it.. not sure I agree, but thats how I read it. haha
    I understand how Winston came up with his list, and that's why I'm so critical of it: it favours people who put up numbers rather than win games. It favours guys who are forced to jack up shots on bad teams over guys who sacrifice shots and score efficiently on good teams. It doesn't take passing or rebounding into account, it doesn't include who sets a good screen and who doesn't. It clearly favours volume scorers, and by his measure DJ Augustin has a greater positive impact on his team than Rondo does, just as Crawford trumps Wade.

    I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...

  2. #3382
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    So let's see. Bargnani does poorly in Basketball-Resource.com's Win Shares, Defensive Ratings and OFFENSIVE Ratings, poorly in 82games.com's Simple Rating and is extremely average in John Hollinger's PER (84th in the league). Wayne Winston, who left Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard off his All-Star list. I'd say flawed is an understatement.
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  3. #3383
    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    It's a good article. Sad but true. Bargnani needs to make friends with the Tinman so he can know where to find some heart

  4. #3384
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote albertan_10 wrote: View Post
    It's a good article. Sad but true. Bargnani needs to make friends with the Tinman so he can know where to find some heart
    hahaha nice.
    And ya, you can't really argue with any of this... it is what it is I suppose.

  5. #3385
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    I understand how Winston came up with his list, and that's why I'm so critical of it: it favours people who put up numbers rather than win games. It favours guys who are forced to jack up shots on bad teams over guys who sacrifice shots and score efficiently on good teams. It doesn't take passing or rebounding into account, it doesn't include who sets a good screen and who doesn't. It clearly favours volume scorers, and by his measure DJ Augustin has a greater positive impact on his team than Rondo does, just as Crawford trumps Wade.

    I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...
    Hey man, not everyone can understand protons, neutrons, dark matter, string theory, etc. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Mathletics yo, it's for real.

  6. #3386
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    Wow. It's almost like I wrote it. And this coming from a unbiased observer?
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  7. #3387
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    Ball don't lie, haters:

    http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=1047


    King Bargs

  8. #3388
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post

    I mean come on, at some point common sense has to prevail...
    I don't really understand the newly found obsession with advanced stats in a sport like basketball where even a casual observer can watch a game and tell you who the best players are on the court. I don't need Ws48, WP, PER or Adjusted +/- to tell me that Andrea Bargnani is not one of the top 12 players (or top 3 centres) in the East. I can see that with my own eyes. Statistical analysis in the NBA has its uses (comparing players, trying to determine $$ value, matchups, 5-man units, etc.) but it isn't as meaningful as in baseball where I can look at any player's WAR number, never see him play a game, and still tell you whether he is worth obtaining. You can't do that with basketball players because there are simply too many variables and anyone who says he has discovered the basketball Rosetta Stone is a liar.

  9. #3389
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Using his model then Chris Bosh went from mega all-star to dud as quick as signing a dotted line.
    Truer words have never been spoken

  10. #3390
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I don't really understand the newly found obsession with advanced stats in a sport like basketball where even a casual observer can watch a game and tell you who the best players are on the court. I don't need Ws48, WP, PER or Adjusted +/- to tell me that Andrea Bargnani is not one of the top 12 players (or top 3 centres) in the East. I can see that with my own eyes. Statistical analysis in the NBA has its uses (comparing players, trying to determine $$ value, matchups, 5-man units, etc.) but it isn't as meaningful as in baseball where I can look at any player's WAR number, never see him play a game, and still tell you whether he is worth obtaining. You can't do that with basketball players because there are simply too many variables and anyone who says he has discovered the basketball Rosetta Stone is a liar.
    Great post. Fully agree.


    "The No-Stats All-Star"http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/ma...pagewanted=all
    This is a GREAT READ. Little long, but grab a beer and really read it. Will turn Shane Battier into your favourite player, and will at least show the value of where these stats are useful, and where they are not.

    If Bargs did ANY of these things that is talked about in that article, then fine.
    But basically this is the ONLY way you gain respect in the league without actually "producing" out of this world stats.

  11. #3391
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    "The No-Stats All-Star"http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/ma...pagewanted=all
    This is a GREAT READ. Little long, but grab a beer and really read it. Will turn Shane Battier into your favourite player, and will at least show the value of where these stats are useful, and where they are not.
    I used to pine for Battier to be traded to the Raptors. Now, I like him too much for that. He's a free agent this summer and I almost want to write him a letter asking him to please go to a contender that can get the most out of his talents. Orlando would be morons not go after him. So would Dallas. Of course, I'd love to see him on San Antonio only because they are my second favourite team and if anyone is a Spur player, he is.
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  12. #3392
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Truer words have never been spoken
    Then I guess you'll agree with me how ridiculous that notion is and as such this guy's model, while having good intentions, is extremely flawed and not worth much consideration.

  13. #3393
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Say Multipaul. You know T-Mac was painted with the same brush by the media? You know, him scoring all those points and his teams always underachieving? That article you're linking in supports your belief but... You seem to be attempting to build a house on a foundation of jello. Ball doesn't lie but people with too much time on their hands can come up with blog postings presenting a view supported on numbers but that view doesn't always mirror reality.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Feb 1st, 2011 at 04:08 PM.

  14. #3394
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    multipaul...the epitome of blissful ignorance.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

  15. #3395
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Then I guess you'll agree with me how ridiculous that notion is and as such this guy's model, while having good intentions, is extremely flawed and not worth much consideration.
    most statistical analysis is flawed. im sure there were existing stats that told coca cola that "new coke" would be a raging success.

    i view statistics as simply a form of using existing data to forecast... and people that base arguments on it the Frankie Flowers of the board.

  16. #3396
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Say Multipaul. You know T-Mac was painted with the same brush by the media? You know, him scoring all those points and his teams always underachieving? That article you're linking in supports your belief but... You seem to be attempting to build a house on a foundation of jello. Ball doesn't lie but people with too much time on their hands can come up with blog postings presenting a view based on numbers that does not mirror reality.
    I'm just trying to keep it positive my bro, whats the point on hating all the time. If it was all hatin, lets talk Kleiza, Amir, DD, Weems, everyone. Everyone sucks equally this year, and Andrea has been sucking lately too. Doesn't mean he isnt a #1 draft pick with a helluva lot of talent, best player on our team in fact.

  17. #3397
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I'm just trying to keep it positive my bro, whats the point on hating all the time. If it was all hatin, lets talk Kleiza, Amir, DD, Weems, everyone. Everyone sucks equally this year, and Andrea has been sucking lately too. Doesn't mean he isnt a #1 draft pick with a helluva lot of talent, best player on our team in fact.
    Dude, you "hate" on Amir - that isn't a secret.

  18. #3398
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    most statistical analysis is flawed.... and people that base arguments on it the Frankie Flowers of the board.
    So what does that make the people who watch the games but are so blind that they can't see recognize a bad player after watching him for 4 seasons?

  19. #3399
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    So what does that make the people who watch the games but are so blind that they can't see recognize a bad player after watching him for 4 seasons?
    what's it like to ask a blatantly leading question when you pretty much summed up what you think the correct answer should be in the form of your question?

  20. #3400
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    most statistical analysis is flawed. im sure there were existing stats that told coca cola that "new coke" would be a raging success.
    Your example is of forecasting using data. Totally different. We're talking about a guy using data to tell me that Andrea Bargnani deserves to be in the all-star game over Dwight Howard. If I presented a stat suggesting that eternal happiness is tied to jumping off a cliff would you endorse jumping off a cliff or would you use logic to make a judgment call that made sense?
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Feb 1st, 2011 at 04:20 PM.

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