View Poll Results: Grade Bargnani's game.

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  • A

    9 7.09%
  • B

    47 37.01%
  • C

    30 23.62%
  • D

    18 14.17%
  • F

    23 18.11%
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Thread: Everything Bargnani: The Legend Continues

  1. #3601
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Positional boundaries at the big spots are blurred to the point where it doesn't matter which of PF or C you play. You just got to know how to play big.

    To think Bargnani will do well against a PF makes no sense, even if he managed to abuse one for a couple possessions, the other team (unless they're coached by Triano) will switch a quicker guy on him to kill the party.

  2. #3602
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Andrea Bargnani 28.3 PT .552 of 19.3 FG .850 of 6.7 FT .500 of 2.7 3P 4.7/0.7 RB 2.0 AS 0.0 BL 0.7 ST 2.3 TO 2.0 PF 40.7 MN 3/3 GS (last 3 games)
    Andrea Bargnani 27.6 PT .486 of 21.0 FG .879 of 6.6 FT .412 of 3.4 3P 5.0/0.8 RB 2.0 AS 0.0 BL 0.4 ST 3.0 TO 3.0 PF 39.1 MN 5/5 GS (last 5 games)
    Bargs is back Bring on the Heat and Bosh! Should be a fun/interesting matchup.
    Last edited by RaptorsFan4Life; Sun Feb 13th, 2011 at 09:10 PM.

  3. #3603
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    King Bargs in the building!

    Looking at the tandem of Ed and AB, i think this team has a promising future.

  4. #3604
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Those guys you mentioned all play(ed) starter minutes. The whole problem with Bargnani is that he shouldn't be playing more than 20 mpg because he's such a liability on the defensive end. Having him come off the bench is great, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the defensive liability he is starting. The whole idea of bringing him off the bench is that you limit the damage he does to your defense by playing him fewer minutes. If he's not hot, he doesn't play.

    And apart from Jamal Crawford, all those players could do more than one thing to help the team. And as I've said before, the Hawks are not going ANYWHERE in the playoffs. Crawford wouldn't play the same type of role on a real contender because he's a horrible defender.
    I think Bargnani could be devastating off the bench. He causes huge problems to defenses, should play against the bench meaning he should be a lot better than them. Or if he plays against the starters, a completely energy-full Bargnani could catch fire against his tiring opponents. Plus, one of Bargnani's biggest flaws is that he can't put in 100% effort for an entire game, making him play less will allow him to play 100% (I hope) for the time he's on.

  5. #3605
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Do you want to have a guy making $10M/yr come off the bench?

    I have no stats to back this up but as far back as I can remember, Bargnani has struggled royally when coming off the bench. There was no domination going on.

    Who's scoring while he's watching opposing starters play?

    Someone mentioned he should only be playing 20 MPG. Just curious where the 20 MPG is coming from because I think I missed it along the way.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Feb 15th, 2011 at 08:22 AM.

  6. #3606
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Do you want to have a guy making $10M/yr come off the bench?

    I have no stats to back this up but as far back as I can remember, Bargnani has struggled royally when coming off the bench. There was no domination going on.

    Who's scoring while he's watching opposing starters play?

    Someone mentioned he should only be playing 20 MPG. Just curious where the 20 MPG is coming from because I think I missed it along the way.
    I don't know, but if we do get a center who is better than Bargnani, he should be moved to the bench. Right now, we can't move him to the bench because there is no one who can replace him. And by bench, I mean 30+ minutes. I don't know, I just feel it could work.

  7. #3607
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Do you want to have a guy making $10M/yr come off the bench?

    I have no stats to back this up but as far back as I can remember, Bargnani has struggled royally when coming off the bench. There was no domination going on.

    Who's scoring while he's watching opposing starters play?

    Someone mentioned he should only be playing 20 MPG. Just curious where the 20 MPG is coming from because I think I missed it along the way.
    There is no doubting Bargnani is unorthodox at the 5. I'm not convinced he can't be part of a winning team. Obviously the right pieces need to be there and that is a work in progress.

    I think there is an awareness in the front office of the need for defense with Bargnani on the team. Look at some of the more recent trades:

    Kapono for Evans.
    Bellinilli for Wright.
    Turk for Barbosa (Barbosa isn't amazing but Turk is dreadful)

    Not a trade but drafting Davis.

    These are not significant moves but steps in the right direction. The next week or so plus draft time and whenever the FA period (lockout?) begins will give an indication of where BC and co. are going with the team.

  8. #3608
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    There is no doubting Bargnani is unorthodox at the 5. I'm not convinced he can't be part of a winning team. Obviously the right pieces need to be there and that is a work in progress.

    I think there is an awareness in the front office of the need for defense with Bargnani on the team. Look at some of the more recent trades:

    Kapono for Evans.
    Bellinilli for Wright.
    Turk for Barbosa (Barbosa isn't amazing but Turk is dreadful)

    Not a trade but drafting Davis.

    These are not significant moves but steps in the right direction. The next week or so plus draft time and whenever the FA period (lockout?) begins will give an indication of where BC and co. are going with the team.
    Building a team with Bargnani as the foundation is like building a house on a foundation of mud.

    Belinelli for Wright was a minor trade. Turkoglu for Barbosa wasn't made with defense in mind. Barbosa isn't known for his defense and I think for good reason. I agree trading for Evans, re-signing Johnson and drafting Davis are all steps in the right direction but all three guys play the same position and neither of them is good enough to prevent Bargnani from getting exposed. He needs someone like Dwight Howard or Josh Smith next to him. The Raptors aren't getting either of those guys.

  9. #3609
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Building a team with Bargnani as the foundation is like building a house on a foundation of mud.

    Belinelli for Wright was a minor trade. Turkoglu for Barbosa wasn't made with defense in mind. Barbosa isn't known for his defense and I think for good reason. I agree trading for Evans, re-signing Johnson and drafting Davis are all steps in the right direction but all three guys play the same position and neither of them is good enough to prevent Bargnani from getting exposed. He needs someone like Dwight Howard or Josh Smith next to him. The Raptors aren't getting either of those guys.
    I did not say Bargnani was the foundation. He is a piece. He is paid as a second or closer to a third option player.

    Barbosa as I mentioned (*EDIT* actually I did not mention this. I started to when I hit hte back space by accident and the page went back thus post was lost. I should have mentioned that) is not a defensive specialist but still better than Turk. I agree that was not the focus of the trade.

    Wright for Bellinili may have been a minor trade but it was still offense for defense.

    Johnson, Wright, Evans are all good defensive players agreed, and again, my point was steps in teh right direction. Johnson and Davis, especially Davis, are still developing so their impact is of yet uncertain. Davis could very well become an Al Horford type player. It will take a PG who is a great defender to stop penetration and a beast at the 3 to even come close to compensating for Bargnani. I'm not sure if it will work or not.

    My point was I think Bargnani can be part of a winning team - nothing more nothing less.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Feb 15th, 2011 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #3610
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He is paid as a second or closer to a third option player.
    Where is this pay scale? And what does it matter if he's been crowned "the guy"?

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I did not say Bargnani was the foundation. He is a piece.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It will take a PG who is a great defender to stop penetration and a beast at the 3 to even come close to compensating for Bargnani. I'm not sure if it will work or not.
    You just said how they need to add pieces around him to make up for his weakness. Sounds almost as though he's at the foundation and they're building out from there... I don't hear you saying they need to find a guy at center who can defend and score to help out Ed Davis or hear you saying they need a guy like Ron Artest on the perimeter to make up for Jsoe Calderon's lack of defensive ability.


    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Barbosa as I mentioned is not a defensive specialist but still better than Turk. I agree that was not the focus of the trade.
    Right. So he wasn't brought in with the intention of improving defense. He was brought in with the intention of shedding a worthless(to the Raptors...Maybe now to the league) player.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Wright for Bellinili may have been a minor trade but it was still offense for defense.
    Yeah it was and I agreed. Still, not significant.

  11. #3611
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Where is this pay scale? And what does it matter if he's been crowned "the guy"?




    You just said how they need to add pieces around him to make up for his weakness. Sounds almost as though he's at the foundation and they're building out from there... I don't hear you saying they need to find a guy at center who can defend and score to help out Ed Davis or hear you saying they need a guy like Ron Artest on the perimeter to make up for Jsoe Calderon's lack of defensive ability.




    Right. So he wasn't brought in with the intention of improving defense. He was brought in with the intention of shedding a worthless(to the Raptors...Maybe now to the league) player.



    Yeah it was and I agreed. Still, not significant.
    Take a look at salaries around the league. Bargnani is not paid like a franchise player as he is not one. Only franchise players paid less than Bargnani are on rookie deals.

    Good points. Bargnani compliments a player like Reggie Evans as Reggie Evans compliments Bargnani - they were 7-9 before Evans was injured. Bargnani is a piece. Davis will develop - he is a rookie with a soft touch and learning the game. He is a hustle player right now and usually the 5th option on offense. I actually have proposed a couple of trades for Artest - and Wallace. As for why Bargnani and not Jose, Jose brings what many PG's in the league can bring on offense and is much more easily replaced. Plus his contract and injury history are major concerns. Bargnani brings a unique skill set (and obvious flaws to the table) that would be much more difficult to replace. My only point, which we obviously disagree on, is I think Bargnani can be part of a winning team. He was in his rookie year and take away the team's play after teh all-star game last year, he would have been again. Right now he is in the role of first option/franchise guy and that is not who he or his game is.

    Not much to add here regarding Turk/Barbo. Was not the best example and I withdraw the comment, your honour.

    But Belli for Wright was still a step in the right direction no matter how insignificant which was the point.

  12. #3612
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Take a look at salaries around the league. Bargnani is not paid like a franchise player as he is not one. Only franchise players paid less than Bargnani are on rookie deals.

    Good points. Bargnani compliments a player like Reggie Evans as Reggie Evans compliments Bargnani - they were 7-9 before Evans was injured. Bargnani is a piece. Davis will develop - he is a rookie with a soft touch and learning the game. He is a hustle player right now and usually the 5th option on offense. I actually have proposed a couple of trades for Artest - and Wallace. As for why Bargnani and not Jose, Jose brings what many PG's in the league can bring on offense and is much more easily replaced. Plus his contract and injury history are major concerns. Bargnani brings a unique skill set (and obvious flaws to the table) that would be much more difficult to replace. My only point, which we obviously disagree on, is I think Bargnani can be part of a winning team. He was in his rookie year and take away the team's play after teh all-star game last year, he would have been again. Right now he is in the role of first option/franchise guy and that is not who he or his game is.

    Not much to add here regarding Turk/Barbo. Was not the best example and I withdraw the comment, your honour.

    But Belli for Wright was still a step in the right direction no matter how insignificant which was the point.
    +1

  13. #3613
    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Building a team with Bargnani as the foundation is like building a house on a foundation of mud. .
    Replace house with castle and mud with swamp and I think you've got it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk

    "All the kings said it was daft to build a castle on a swamp. But I built it all the same! Just to show 'em!....It sank into the swamp."
    Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Tue Feb 15th, 2011 at 02:13 PM.

  14. #3614
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    Chad Ford on trading Bargs (in a chat today):

    Herman (Toronto)

    With Ed Davis and Amir Johnson showing signs of potential. Does there come a time when Toronto looks to trade Bargnani? Maybe they should take a shot at Odem?

    Chad Ford (1:36 PM)

    It's a good question. The answer is ... not as long as Bryan Colangelo is the GM. GMs fall in love with the players they draft. It's part of our psychological need to justify our decisions. Colangelo took him No. 1 over Rudy Gay and Brandon Roy. He needs to be right. Trading him is tantamount to admitting he was a bad pick. Lakers are suffering from the same problem with Bynum. As a rule around the league, teams tend to overvalue their own players and undervalue other team's players. It's partly why we don't see more trades in the NBA. But if Colangelo were to leave the Raptors, my guess is the first move a new GM would make would be to trade Bargnani. He's talented, but it's tough to have a 7 footer on the floor who refuses to rebound or defend anyone.

    Ouch.

    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37026

  15. #3615
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    Quote SweetRiverBaines wrote: View Post
    Chad Ford on trading Bargs (in a chat today):

    Herman (Toronto)

    With Ed Davis and Amir Johnson showing signs of potential. Does there come a time when Toronto looks to trade Bargnani? Maybe they should take a shot at Odem?

    Chad Ford (1:36 PM)

    It's a good question. The answer is ... not as long as Bryan Colangelo is the GM. GMs fall in love with the players they draft. It's part of our psychological need to justify our decisions. Colangelo took him No. 1 over Rudy Gay and Brandon Roy. He needs to be right. Trading him is tantamount to admitting he was a bad pick. Lakers are suffering from the same problem with Bynum. As a rule around the league, teams tend to overvalue their own players and undervalue other team's players. It's partly why we don't see more trades in the NBA. But if Colangelo were to leave the Raptors, my guess is the first move a new GM would make would be to trade Bargnani. He's talented, but it's tough to have a 7 footer on the floor who refuses to rebound or defend anyone.

    Ouch.

    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37026
    Didn't your mom teach you never to trust a guy name Chad? Or C.H.U.D.


  16. #3616
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    "All the kings said it was daft to build a castle on a swamp. But I built it all the same! Just to show 'em!....It sank into the swamp."
    But remember, after 3 Swamp Castles, you get the strongest in all the land. hahah

  17. #3617
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Andrea Bargnani 38 PT 15-26 FG 3-4 FT 5-6 3P 4/0 RB 0 AS 0 BL 0 ST 3 TO 4 PF 39 MN (Final, Heat)
    Andrea Bargnani 30.8 PT .560 of 21.0 FG .833 of 6.0 FT .643 of 3.5 3P 4.5/0.5 RB 1.5 AS 0.0 BL 0.5 ST 2.5 TO 2.5 PF 40.3 MN 4/4 GS (last 4 games)

  18. #3618
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    And yet they still lost.

  19. #3619
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    And yet they still lost.
    At the beginning of the 4th he had 20 points and 1 rebound (I think), crazy.

  20. #3620
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    King Bargs was the man last night, i don't care what anyone says. Everyone is gonna hate, but this dude was on fire.

    The reason we lost is because of all of the poor shooting by Jose, Demar, Amir, etc in crunch time. AB was on fire and knocking everything down.

    PS- can we please trade Jose. I almost lost my voice last night from yelling and swearing.

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